Force Sensitive Archive
Thread: New/More FUN way to become a Jedi...
not entirely true, there was remnants of the empire, who settled in a system, had quite a few star destroyers and other ships, so they weren't gone, they just weren't the dominant faction in the galaxy (in relation to the Vong Storyline)
Jedi-Mentor wrote:
Hmm... What you're suggesting is at least as contradicting as the curent explanation. But you got the point right: there aren't supposed to be any other Jedi around, or at least not as many as we see as soon as we log on. But we can't really change the story of the movies, so if anything, we would have to scroll the time forth or back... Say more like KotOR (3000 years before) or some hundred years after episode VI... But then again, there wouldn't be any Empire to fight or join, or well, taking KotOR in perspective, there was the Sith of course, and their ideals of an Empire under a Sith Lord.
My suggestion would be either changing the timeline or simpley make it near impossible to become a Jedi... Like some un-influencedJedi Masters eachhandpicking one apprentice per month or something like that...
But it's all pure spectaculations... I'm not the one complainingBut of course the story is a bit sketchy...
Everitt_Cage wrote:
Deverontheman wrote:
Everyone is making some good points here. True, no Jedi ENCLAVES should be around, however, Yoda and Luke are not the ONLY Jedi around during the Trilogy, they are just the center piece to a larger story. MINE!!! j/k but seriously, Yoda, Luke, Obi-Wan(until Ep.IV) are the only ones mentioned in the movies. There is plenty of other lore going on during the movies, we have to remeber, several years passed between movies (Just stating as a fact, I know everyone knows that anyways, I'm going somewhere with this just give me some time :smileyhappy
I already addressed this. The movies are canon, and the facts in them simply cannot be proven wrong by any EU material. In ROTJ Yoda tells luke that after he dies "the LAST of the Jedi will you be". What this means, obviously, is that there are no other Jedi in existance at that time. Now, as I already pointed out, this game does take place a few years before Yoda made that comment, HOWEVER, if you want to say there could have been Jedi in existence before Yoda made that comment, that means they have to have ALL died by the time of ROTJ, which is not likely, so its MOST likely that what Yoda said applied not only to the ROTJ time period, but to the time period of the classic trilogy as a whole, meaning that there were no other Jedi during the time of the 3 original movies than the ones we saw. The movies supercede ANY and ALL EU material, no matter how well written, that contradict them, whether fans want it that way or not. That isnt according to me, but to GL, who has the final say in SW.
As far as your comment about the younglings at the temple, it is shown what happens to them in ep III...(and I say that from having read the novel)
Message Edited by Everitt_Cage on 04-13-2005 02:07 PM
Ahhh the cry of "the movies are canon"... so that only what appears in the movies themselves applies.
Remember Leia was "the other", so she is also a Jedi. Untrained to be sure, but a proto-Jedi, even to the extent of being able to telepathically communicate with Luke during TESB with no training at all...
How about actual words out of George Lucas' mouth? Is that canon enough for you?
"The notion of Vader being Luke's father first appeared in the second draft (of The Empire Strikes Back). Vader became attracted to the dark side while he was training to become a Jedi. He became a Jedi and killed most of the Jedi Knights; very few escaped."
This is an exact quote from his comments in Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays, page 217. The specific comments come right after the part of the screenplay where Vader reveals Luke's parentage.
Yoda and presumably Ben are the only two Jedi Council members left after Episode 3. So when Yoda says "the last of the Jedi will you be." he could actually mean "the last of the Jedi (officially speaking) will you be." bearing in mind that some Jedi survived the Purge. It is also worth noting that since Jedi were the keepers of the peace, any Jedi forced to hide out and become a hermit has ceased to be a Jedi functionally speaking. They're not doing what Jedi do, regardless of their abilities. Also, telling Luke he is the last Jedi forces him to accept his destiny of confronting Vader without feeling like he can run back to Yoda and Ben; forces him to stand on his own two feet. Some of the Jedi were likely doing their job on remote planets when the purge hit and could easily have gone into hiding immediately.
That does not stop highly skilled Force Sensitives from taking up the mantle and calling themselves Jedi, which is neither contrary to canon, or inconsistent with the game's events.
George Lucas does have the final say in Star Wars, and he did say unequivocally that there were Jedi around after the Purge.
JonnusAndre wrote:
maybe the imps shud bcum sith and get missions from the sith
No, because of the way the Sith progress ANY new Sith would be a threat to Vader and the Emperor as someone who would seek to replace them.
All Sith are Dark Jedi, all Dark Jedi are not Sith.
Cebre_Opasloa wrote:
Everitt_Cage wrote:
Deverontheman wrote:
Everyone is making some good points here. True, no Jedi ENCLAVES should be around, however, Yoda and Luke are not the ONLY Jedi around during the Trilogy, they are just the center piece to a larger story. MINE!!! j/k but seriously, Yoda, Luke, Obi-Wan(until Ep.IV) are the only ones mentioned in the movies. There is plenty of other lore going on during the movies, we have to remeber, several years passed between movies (Just stating as a fact, I know everyone knows that anyways, I'm going somewhere with this just give me some time :smileyhappy
I already addressed this. The movies are canon, and the facts in them simply cannot be proven wrong by any EU material. In ROTJ Yoda tells luke that after he dies "the LAST of the Jedi will you be". What this means, obviously, is that there are no other Jedi in existance at that time. Now, as I already pointed out, this game does take place a few years before Yoda made that comment, HOWEVER, if you want to say there could have been Jedi in existence before Yoda made that comment, that means they have to have ALL died by the time of ROTJ, which is not likely, so its MOST likely that what Yoda said applied not only to the ROTJ time period, but to the time period of the classic trilogy as a whole, meaning that there were no other Jedi during the time of the 3 original movies than the ones we saw. The movies supercede ANY and ALL EU material, no matter how well written, that contradict them, whether fans want it that way or not. That isnt according to me, but to GL, who has the final say in SW.
As far as your comment about the younglings at the temple, it is shown what happens to them in ep III...(and I say that from having read the novel)
Message Edited by Everitt_Cage on 04-13-2005 02:07 PM
Ahhh the cry of "the movies are canon"... so that only what appears in the movies themselves applies.
Remember Leia was "the other", so she is also a Jedi. Untrained to be sure, but a proto-Jedi, even to the extent of being able to telepathically communicate with Luke during TESB with no training at all...
What complete BS. Its pretty laughable. How can you say someone who has NO Jedi training what so ever is a Jedi, or even proto Jedi? By your logic(that being "just becuase someone has force sensitivity, they are a proto jedi") your saying Anakin was a Jedi in ep I before Qui-Gon found him, since he had force sensitivity. Basicaly, your just plain wrong. Jedi and Sith have specific teachings. Being force sensitive makes you neither of them. You only become a Jedi or Sith by learning and following those teachings.
How about actual words out of George Lucas' mouth? Is that canon enough for you?
"The notion of Vader being Luke's father first appeared in the second draft (of The Empire Strikes Back). Vader became attracted to the dark side while he was training to become a Jedi. He became a Jedi and killed most of the Jedi Knights; very few escaped."
This is an exact quote from his comments in Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays, page 217. The specific comments come right after the part of the screenplay where Vader reveals Luke's parentage.
Believe it or not, Lucas has contradicted himself. If you read the opening to the novel of ANH, it actualy says the emperor(who Lucas obviously hadnt developed into the character he was in ROTJ) was actualy CONTROLLED by the people who elected him into office. We know by the time of ROTJ this was COMPLETELY not true. So, just becuase GL says something doesnt make it canon. No, thats not my opinion, thats what the SW Insider says. Heres a quote for you:
According to the SW Insider #23:
"'Gospel', or canon as we refer to it, includes only the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the film novelizations. These works spin out of George Lucas' original stories, the rest are written by other writers."
Does it say canon also includes comments GL makes which contradict what characters in the movies say? I didnt see that. Does it say canon includes things GL writes in earlier novels that contradict what is shown in later movies? I didnt see that either. Care for another quote?
Steve Sansweet, of Fan Relations at starwars.com said:
"When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves - and only the films."
Did he say canon was the movies, AND comments GL makes about them that contradict them? Nope. Now, does this contradict what I said earlier?:
"The movies supercede ANY and ALL EU material, no matter how well written, that contradict them, whether fans want it that way or not. That isnt according to me, but to GL, who has the final say in SW."
Only if someone lacks basic reading comprehension skills. What I said GL said was the the MOVIES supercede any EU that contradict them. What I didnt, and have never said, is that all comments GL makes about the movies are canon, because here is the problem: If GL says one thing, but the movies contradict him, being a SW fan, which is correct? Basicaly, you have to go with what is shown in the movies. Instances of GL contradicting the movies are few and far between, but as I have already mentioned, there are instances out there such as his original idea of the emperor, which was later contradicted by the emperor we saw in ROTJ, who has no one controlling him and is in complete control.
Yoda and presumably Ben are the only two Jedi Council members left after Episode 3. So when Yoda says "the last of the Jedi will you be." he could actually mean "the last of the Jedi (officially speaking) will you be." bearing in mind that some Jedi survived the Purge.
LoL! Now here you go contradicting yourself. Your saying some Jedi, who were actual members of the order survived the purge. They were OFFICIAL members of the Jedi order. But in the sentence above that you say Yoda meant Luke was the last official member of the order. Good job there.
It is also worth noting that since Jedi were the keepers of the peace, any Jedi forced to hide out and become a hermit has ceased to be a Jedi functionally speaking. They're not doing what Jedi do, regardless of their abilities.
By saying that your saying Ben and Yoda werent Jedi in the classic trilogy, as they were not doing the 'jedi duties' by hiding. I dont think you'll find many SW fans that will agree with you that Obi-Wan and Yoda were not Jedi.
Also, telling Luke he is the last Jedi forces him to accept his destiny of confronting Vader without feeling like he can run back to Yoda and Ben; forces him to stand on his own two feet. Some of the Jedi were likely doing their job on remote planets when the purge hit and could easily have gone into hiding immediately.
You obviously are not aware of the story of ep III. The Jedi Temple's beacon is activated, calling all Jedi back to coruscant. The temple beacon is the highest priority signal the Jedi Order has, and even the most 'renegade' Jedi like Qui-Gon Jinn answer the call. And for that very reason, the Jedi were on coruscant and killed when the temple was sealed off and Anakin led the clones in and killed them. Any Jedi thatWERE on distant worlds were serving as generals leading armies of clone troopers. The clone troopers recieved order 66 before any Jedi could recieve any communications(outside of the temple beacon, which wasnt really a communication but just a signal) and a Jedi general's entire army suddenly attacked them without warning, leaving them no chance to defend themselves, and as we saw in ep II, even mace would have been killed by simply being outnumbered had Yoda not shown up w/ the clones to rescue him. In ep III it is directly show how the only two Jedi that escape do escape, and how all the others are tricked to returning and killed, or killed in the field by order 66.
That does not stop highly skilled Force Sensitives from taking up the mantle and calling themselves Jedi, which is neither contrary to canon, or inconsistent with the game's events.
Just because someone calls themselves a Jedi or a Sith, as I mentioned near the beginning of this post, doesnt make them one. I already explained, their are teachings associated w/ each religion, and merely being FS and not learning the teachings and following them does not make one a Jedi or a Sith, not matter what they call themselves.
George Lucas does have the final say in Star Wars, and he did say unequivocally that there were Jedi around after the Purge.
According to what you just said, which you cannot now deny, the emperor who we saw in ROTJ and all the new movies, is actualy controlled by the corrupt politicians in the senate, instead of the other way around. Why? Because that is what GL said in the novel of ANH, and according to you, he has the final SAY. Now, if you want to argue tha the changed his mind by ROTJ and in doing so THAT was his 'final say', then the same thing applies to the quote you posted about some Jedi surviving the purge. He might have originaly said some did, as the quote you posted earlier shows, but in ep III it is shown how the Jedi Order is exterminated except for 2 which escape by the skin of their teeth, and only because of their great skill. And in making ep III that way, GL has once again changed his mind from his original idea, and in doing so has the 'final say'.
Cebre_Opasloa wrote:
JonnusAndre wrote:
maybe the imps shud bcum sith and get missions from the sith
No, because of the way the Sith progress ANY new Sith would be a threat to Vader and the Emperor as someone who would seek to replace them.
All Sith are Dark Jedi, all Dark Jedi are not Sith.
Completely wrong. To be a dark JEDI(as far as the EU is concerned)it means you have to have learned Jedi teachings then turned to the dark side. However, most Sith were NEVER Jedi, and never studied Jedi teachings, such as Darth Maul, and Darth Sidious. So as you can see, all Sith are NOT Dark Jedi, just some. The whole concept of Dark Jedi though is EU, and not canon. Both characters in the movies who were Jedi and then became Sith(Dooku and Vader) both ceased to be Jedi before their becomming Sith, as the teachings of both the Jedi and Sith orders do not allow you to be both at the same time.
Message Edited by Everitt_Cage on 04-15-2005 02:13 PM
Sobekeus wrote:
Not to be nitpicking, but Vader and Palpatine are both considered Jedi.
But that would only make 4 trained [i]known[/i] Jedi, thoughthere are various sub-Jedi sects as depicted by the books, but they were localized and not really in a position to impact the galaxy at scale.
Message Edited by Everitt_Cage on 04-14-2005 01:24 PM
Message Edited by lpnix on 04-14-2005 01:43 PM
Everitt_Cage wrote:
Cebre_Opasloa wrote:
How about actual words out of George Lucas' mouth? Is that canon enough for you?
"The notion of Vader being Luke's father first appeared in the second draft (of The Empire Strikes Back). Vader became attracted to the dark side while he was training to become a Jedi. He became a Jedi and killed most of the Jedi Knights; very few escaped."
This is an exact quote from his comments in Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays, page 217. The specific comments come right after the part of the screenplay where Vader reveals Luke's parentage.
Believe it or not, Lucas has contradicted himself. If you read the opening to the novel of ANH, it actualy says the emperor(who Lucas obviously hadnt developed into the character he was in ROTJ) was actualy CONTROLLED by the people who elected him into office. We know by the time of ROTJ this was COMPLETELY not true. So, just becuase GL says something doesnt make it canon. No, thats not my opinion, thats what the SW Insider says. Heres a quote for you:
According to the SW Insider #23:
"'Gospel', or canon as we refer to it, includes only the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the film novelizations. These works spin out of George Lucas' original stories, the rest are written by other writers."
Ahh, but said comments were made by Mr. Lucas explaining the content in the second and subsequent drafts of the screenplay. As such, they are canon by your own definition.
Does it say canon also includes comments GL makes which contradict what characters in the movies say? I didnt see that. Does it say canon includes things GL writes in earlier novels that contradict what is shown in later movies? I didnt see that either. Care for another quote?
Steve Sansweet, of Fan Relations at starwars.com said:
"When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves - and only the films."
Did he say canon was the movies, AND comments GL makes about them that contradict them? Nope. Now, does this contradict what I said earlier?:
"The movies supercede ANY and ALL EU material, no matter how well written, that contradict them, whether fans want it that way or not. That isnt according to me, but to GL, who has the final say in SW."
Only if someone lacks basic reading comprehension skills. What I said GL said was the the MOVIES supercede any EU that contradict them. What I didnt, and have never said, is that all comments GL makes about the movies are canon, because here is the problem: If GL says one thing, but the movies contradict him, being a SW fan, which is correct? Basicaly, you have to go with what is shown in the movies. Instances of GL contradicting the movies are few and far between, but as I have already mentioned, there are instances out there such as his original idea of the emperor, which was later contradicted by the emperor we saw in ROTJ, who has no one controlling him and is in complete control.
Perhaps, but nothing in the quote is directly contradicted by the movies. Any statement a character makes can either be objective reality or reality depending on the speaker's point of view, unless said statement is proven visually. For example, "Darth Vader betrayed and murdered your father..." At that point George Lucas already knew that Vader was Anakin. Obi-Wan merely deliberately made the statement in such a way because Luke at that point would have been unable to handle the full truth. Heck, even when he did learn it he was not prepared to handle it. "The last of the Jedi will you be" is equally equivocal considering Yoda knows Leia is waiting in the wings if Luke fails.
Yoda and presumably Ben are the only two Jedi Council members left after Episode 3. So when Yoda says "the last of the Jedi will you be." he could actually mean "the last of the Jedi (officially speaking) will you be." bearing in mind that some Jedi survived the Purge.
LoL! Now here you go contradicting yourself. Your saying some Jedi, who were actual members of the order survived the purge. They were OFFICIAL members of the Jedi order. But in the sentence above that you say Yoda meant Luke was the last official member of the order. Good job there.
"Last" in this case does not have to mean "the only one", it can also mean "the final Padawan promoted to Jedi". The point is never specified.
It is also worth noting that since Jedi were the keepers of the peace, any Jedi forced to hide out and become a hermit has ceased to be a Jedi functionally speaking. They're not doing what Jedi do, regardless of their abilities.
By saying that your saying Ben and Yoda werent Jedi in the classic trilogy, as they were not doing the 'jedi duties' by hiding. I dont think you'll find many SW fans that will agree with you that Obi-Wan and Yoda were not Jedi.
They were not acting as Jediat that point until Luke popped up to require training.I DID say "functionally speaking", perhaps "not functioning as Jedi" would clarify things?
Also, telling Luke he is the last Jedi forces him to accept his destiny of confronting Vader without feeling like he can run back to Yoda and Ben; forces him to stand on his own two feet. Some of the Jedi were likely doing their job on remote planets when the purge hit and could easily have gone into hiding immediately.
You obviously are not aware of the story of ep III. The Jedi Temple's beacon is activated, calling all Jedi back to coruscant. The temple beacon is the highest priority signal the Jedi Order has, and even the most 'renegade' Jedi like Qui-Gon Jinn answer the call. And for that very reason, the Jedi were on coruscant and killed when the temple was sealed off and Anakin led the clones in and killed them. Any Jedi thatWERE on distant worlds were serving as generals leading armies of clone troopers. The clone troopers recieved order 66 before any Jedi could recieve any communications(outside of the temple beacon, which wasnt really a communication but just a signal) and a Jedi general's entire army suddenly attacked them without warning, leaving them no chance to defend themselves, and as we saw in ep II, even mace would have been killed by simply being outnumbered had Yoda not shown up w/ the clones to rescue him. In ep III it is directly show how the only two Jedi that escape do escape, and how all the others are tricked to returning and killed, or killed in the field by order 66.
Episode 3 is not out yet, so you are basing this on what? Even so, assuming this is accurate there were thousands of Jedi all over the place. Once the order/beacon was activated, it would take some time for all of them to arrive and it is quite possible some managed to escape (offscreen of course) just as Yoda and Ben do.
That does not stop highly skilled Force Sensitives from taking up the mantle and calling themselves Jedi, which is neither contrary to canon, or inconsistent with the game's events.
Just because someone calls themselves a Jedi or a Sith, as I mentioned near the beginning of this post, doesnt make them one. I already explained, their are teachings associated w/ each religion, and merely being FS and not learning the teachings and following them does not make one a Jedi or a Sith, not matter what they call themselves.
I have no argument here, it seems we agree on this point.
George Lucas does have the final say in Star Wars, and he did say unequivocally that there were Jedi around after the Purge.
According to what you just said, which you cannot now deny, the emperor who we saw in ROTJ and all the new movies, is actualy controlled by the corrupt politicians in the senate, instead of the other way around. Why? Because that is what GL said in the novel of ANH, and according to you, he has the final SAY. Now, if you want to argue tha the changed his mind by ROTJ and in doing so THAT was his 'final say', then the same thing applies to the quote you posted about some Jedi surviving the purge. He might have originaly said some did, as the quote you posted earlier shows, but in ep III it is shown how the Jedi Order is exterminated except for 2 which escape by the skin of their teeth, and only because of their great skill. And in making ep III that way, GL has once again changed his mind from his original idea, and in doing so has the 'final say'.
Unless he shows ALL the remaining Jedi onscreen and shows them all being killed onscreen, the door remains open for some to have escaped. He can't show everything that happened during the purge in 2 hours, especially since the crux of the movie focuses on the struggle between Obi-Wan and Anakin... There is no proof that his annotations regarding the screenplay saying "most Jedi were killed" are not exactly correct. There is of course no proof that they were not all killed either.
In the absence of objective proof one way or the other, the presence of Jedi in game is not a contradiction of canon since the canon material itself is completely equivocal. The canon makes no solid proof either way, so it's impossible to contradict. Just like the old movie serials that the saga are stylistically drawn from would say "if you don't see a dead body, you can't be sure he's dead"
Obi-Wan put it best, "You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view..."
Message Edited by Everitt_Cage on 04-14-2005 10:59 PM