Fencer Archive
Thread: ANSWER HOLO'S QUESTION!
Guys - there is a ray of hope! Check this thread, and answer Holo's question. This drastically effects all melee:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Development&message.id=374621&view=by_date_ascending&page=1
Here's his text, for the lazy:
There's already a movement modifier in place based on the weapon you're using, but it's very slight. We see meleers often asking for the ability to catch up to their opponents who use blasters. Should we increase the movement speed penalty for people using ranged weapons?
We also have the baility to give defensive bonuses based on movement, btw (which you can see when your target runs, they get harder to hit). We could do this based on weapon held as well, so meleers dodged fire better than people with blasters, though I don't know if that makes any logical sense...
-Raph Koster, Creative Director
Here's the response I gave, but I'd love to see some other oppinions. And I'm sure you all have one 
Washu's Response:
Holo,
Thankyou for giving us this opportunity to offer input.
I think you have the right idea, but are going about it incorrectly. Disclaimer: I am both a fencer and a pistoleer - so I am seeing this from both sides.
I feel a fair solution would be:
Increase accuracy penalties while moving. Drasctically.
- This would still allow kiting, but it would no longer be practical.
- This would be soooo much more realistic, while achieving your desired goal.
- Movement penalties based on weapon type would only lead to more pistoleers... and nobody wants that.
Add a working /stick command
If SWG had a working /stick command, then once a melee catches you, they would stay on you, unless you can use terrain to shake them (running up a hill faster than them, getting them stuck on a corner as you quickly round a building).
The command could be /stick [distance]. Adding [distance] attribute would also allow us to fight mobs correctly - currently they all close to 0m, making melee always have a negative penalty to hit. always.
You've stated that if a melee character catches a marksman, they should be toast. Well that's not currently the case, due to server lag preventing us from keeping them in range.
I cannot emphasize this enough: It is not enough to catch up to someone, the server must recognize you are in the correct range, or you must give us a tool to stay at that range until it can.
Thanks again for giving us this forum to voice our concerns.
- Washu
I slightly more pronounced slowdown when shooting makes sense to me. And i'm a pistoleer!
I just worry the devs will think that a slight slowndown is equivalent to laying on ground sleeping.
Seelenlos wrote:
the pvm game is fubared enough as it is right now and this nerf will lead only to more problems. imo meleers should be able to catch up a kiting opponent with a large increase in base running speed but please dont touch the to hit mods when kiting in pvm.
I was worried that increasing base running speed of meleers would just lead to people equiping a dagger to run faster in general.
Who needs SOW, I've got a dagger
- Washu
I don't believe that if they added bonuses to running speeds that it would be from the melee weapons themselves. I believe it should be a modifier in one of the tier's in each elite melee class (eg. footwork for fencers +5 to run speed per lvl trained with a +10 at novice fencer). This should also be incorporated in the other melee elite classes such as pikeman, tka, and swordsman.
That way not everyone will look dumb with their daggers. Makes alot more sense. And since this modifier is in the elite classes, not every pistoleer (or any other ranged type) will pick up novice brawler for the bonuses.
ArodaKhan wrote:
I don't believe that if they added bonuses to running speeds that it would be from the melee weapons themselves. I believe it should be a modifier in one of the tier's in each elite melee class (eg. footwork for fencers +5 to run speed per lvl trained with a +10 at novice fencer). This should also be incorporated in the other melee elite classes such as pikeman, tka, and swordsman.
That way not everyone will look dumb with their daggers. Makes alot more sense. And since this modifier is in the elite classes, not every pistoleer (or any other ranged type) will pick up novice brawler for the bonuses.
I'm a pistoleer / fencer. Under this system, I'll be running at elite fencer speed while shooting my pistol with elite level accuracy and damage.
Is there a way to stop this? Perhaps you would have to have a fencing weapon equipped to get the speed bonus?
If the speed increase is not restricted by the weapon you are holding, does this mean the bonuses would stack? Would someone that masters a couple melee professions move a lightning speed?
I'm not slamming your system, I'm just curious as to how you might solve these problems. I like a good debate
- Washu
See, the key thing would be to make all those run speed modifiers weapon dependent. You don't get bonuses to your accuracy in general by going up the 1H tree, do you? Same principle. You have to have the weapon out to get the speed...wouldn't make sense otherwise. You're being trained in how to move fast when wielding a sword, not when wielding a pole or a rifle...
My sure you post in Holo's forum, not just here. He most likely won't dig through all the forums trying to locate all the posts related to his question.
~Lyahpar~
La Femme Fencer
"Thrust if you love Fencers!"
Haschel wrote:
See, the key thing would be to make all those run speed modifiers weapon dependent. You don't get bonuses to your accuracy in general by going up the 1H tree, do you? Same principle. You have to have the weapon out to get the speed...wouldn't make sense otherwise. You're being trained in how to move fast when wielding a sword, not when wielding a pole or a rifle...
I definitely think it would be better to boost Melee speedrather thanlowering Ranged speed. However, I'm still not convinced that speed modifiers are the right decsion.
Consider if you will...
On a flat playing field, with no obstructions, and 2 fighters starting at 65 meters apart:
- The ranged fighter should win this fight the majority of the time - after all, this is his element.
- If the melee fighter can close the distance, then he should shred the ranged person.
If speed is changed (rather for melee or ranged) under the current system of 75% damage resists - will it really be possible for the ranged attacker to defeat the melee user before he closes the gap?
Perhaps I'm being nieve - but using the logic I stated, I simply don't see how it would be fair to change run speeds for different classes. If melee will always win in close quarters, and ranged cannot kill melee before they reach them, then when can ranged players win?
I am primarily a fencer, so believe me when I say I think melee needs something to help in PvP. I just worry that solving our woes with speed modifiers might only lead to further nerfs on our damage in the future.
- Washu
For starters, my comment about being sure to post replies in Holo's thread wasn't directed at any specific person. Just in general so we get our opinions into the thread that matters.
Tlaloc, said:
"On a flat playing field, with no obstructions, and 2 fighters starting at 65 meters apart:
- The ranged fighter should win this fight the majority of the time - after all, this is his element.
- If the melee fighter can close the distance, then he should shred the ranged person."
I couldn't agree more with this basic logic.
But then you said:
"If melee will always win in close quarters, and ranged cannot kill melee before they reach them, then when can ranged players win?"
You're right, that wouldn't be fair. Not any fairer than the current situation. Let me reword your statement slightly, and see if it rings a bell:
*If ranged players will always win at range, and melee cannot close the gap before dying, then when can melee players win?*
That's the current situation. The only way we win now is by using our heads, applying rather extreme tactics, and being lucky enough to be in just the right situation with lots of cover and such (which doesn't amtter too much since ranged can curently shoot through walls.
I don't want a complete reversal, but who says it has to be to the extreme? Could the speeds be adjusted right to the point where the outcome is questionable? Where the vistory can go to whoever used the better tactic, attack-combos, environment, ect, on a pretty equal bases? I liek the idea that onyl the person playing their top game will come out on top, and a screwup on either side means your toast.
I'm certain this isn't the only means of equalizing things a bit. Heck, I'd enjoy just making it to where the radar only showed the forward 160 arc (perhaps narrower or wider for different races, based upon their avail peripheral vision), and give us a fighting chance to sneak up behind someone if they don't bother to turn around occasionally and look.
~Lyahpar~
La Femme Fencer
"Thrust if you love Fencers!"
Raphayl,
I think we're on exactly the same page here. I agree that there should be a happy medium where both sides would have an equal chance of victory - and currently your remix of my quote is completely accurate.
Before the 75% damage patch, I think simply increasing melee speed (or decreasing ranged speed) would have been a great fix.
Butunder the present PvP rules, I'm worried that any change to run speeds might lead to a well armored melee player always being able to catch the ranged player.
The devs are in a tricky spot - the speed change needed to allow for a fair fight starting at 65 meters is going to be very small. If it's not enough that the average player can clearly see it, then melee will scream foul. But if it's so much that ranged users become fodder, well, you can see where I'm going.
This is why I'd rather see the entire problem skirted by just adjusting to-hit penalties for moving targets until things balance out.
No matter what the Devs decide, I think melee will be in a much better situation. I just hope we aren't boosted too much.
- Washu