Fencer Archive

Thunderheart, in his undying efforts to juggle all the current profession info, has asked for our top 5 issues once again and needed them asap. Looking at the voted list, and accounting for what has already been addressed on that list, I summed up what the most relevant top 5 issues would be based upon our agreed upon method of bumping up issues further down on the voted list as issues were addressed. Below is what I posted as our current top 5. If you feel these do not accurately reflect our needs, do not be alarmed. I can always change them, and even if I couldn't I can always submit a different top 5 next week.

Here, and the Fencer Top 5 Issues are currently (and I'll try to be brief, as I can get wordy sometimes):

5. Do away with the Dodge Animation. The Fencers are very excited about the upgrades to Dodge, and the enhancements CoB bring to Dodge as well. However, this brings up a concern. There is an animation that Fencers perform when doing a Dodge. When standing your ground this animation has no impact and is barely noticeable. However, when trying to close the gap between the Fencer and a kiting opponent, or when attempting to flee combat, this animation creates a significant problem. Every time this animation executes, the Fencer stops dead in her tracks. This can foil what would otherwise be a successful escape, and nullify any reasonable chance of closing on a kiting opponent. It's ironic that the very ability that is suppose to help us serves to penailze us. Now with the inceases to Dodge, the impact of this animation "stutter" can become an even bigger threat. It is the wishes of the Fencer community that the animation either be altered to not interact with the running ability, or be removed altogether.

4. Reduction of HAM costs. Over the past few patches Fencers have seen every other melee profession receive reductions in HAM costs. We understand why this was felt to be necessary, but believe it was due to a misconception of HAM using for the typical Fencer. At first look, some of the HAM costs for Fencers appear to be lower than some of the other melee professions. However, do to the comparitively low damage of the majority of our weapons, Fencers must rely more heavily on special attacks to rasie their damage output to a comparable level. This results in a leveraging of those HAM costs, and no-win choice for Fencers. They can either stick with dealing limited damage (prolonging the amount of time they must fight and sponge up incoming damage) or spam their specials and kill themself.

If the top Fencer issue(s) is addressed, this would not be as significant an issue as it is; but currently it is a top consideration. What makes this even worst is that Fencer weaponry is notorious for eating through Mind (save for 2 weapons the Mind cost is the highest.) All melee wepaons seem to focus on a different bar... Health, Action, or Mind. Both Health and Action are easily healable on the battlefield, but Mind is not. Therefore having our Fencer primary cost as Mind is a double penalty. Please consider a reduction in these costs.

3-1. AP values, Damage, and the Speed Cap. Our top three issues are so tightly related, it is difficult to separate them. So they are best considered as one composite issue. In fact, the #4 issue tires in directly with these issues. I want to preface by saying the Fencers in no way want any ability or facility to be removed from any of the other melee professions. When certain aspects of them are brought up in this issue, it is only for purpose of a specific example.

Each of the melee professions has an element that is supposed to assist their damage output. Swordsman weaponry are only slightly slower than Fencer weaponry, do upwards of more than twice the base damage, and have Medium Armor Piercing. Combined these create a lethal combination. Ever take an AP2 Power Hammer sliced up to 628 max damage (don't gasp, they exist) as a HeadHit (Mind target with damage multipliers)? Pikeman weaponry do even more massive damage, and also have Medium Armor Piercing weapons... although they do currently have an accuracy problem they wish to have corrected. TK are limited to AP1 (Light Armor Piercing) but they are compensated by have "Unarmed" damage modifiers of around +200. Without resorting to special attacks, all of these professions have the capacity to deal respectable damage.

The element that was supposed to be key to Fencers was speed. We only have light armor piercing available to us, only on a single weapon, and it is far from being the one with the highest damage. We do not have the high damage weaponry available to Swordsman or Pikeman, we do not have the higher armor piercing, and we do not have the damage boosting modifiers of the Teras Kasi. All we have is our speed. Our speed modifier at Master Fencer is +90, which sounds fantastic in theory, but since even our slowest weapon is only a 3.5 speed (not sliced), it caps out at the 1.0 cap at +70 speed. The remaining +20 is lost. This slowest weapon ios not even the preferred Fencer weapon due to its lack of any AP. The preferred weapon only has a delay of 2.6 (not sliced) and therefore caps out using only +60 speed... losing the remaining +30.

The existing speed cap prevents our only potential advantage from functioning. If you do a bit of math on the existing current Fencing weaponry, you will see that Fencers loose more than 50% of their potential damage due to the current 1.0 second speed cap. This is why Fencers feel compelled to spam their specials to make up the deficit, and why HAM costs have become so important to us.

A developer stated (I can link the post if needed) that this was a noticed problem, and that they would be looking into the possibility of lowering the speed cap for Fencers to allow them to access their only advantage. The suggested speed cap was 0.5 seconds. Even at this cap, many Fencerr weapons would be prevented from tapping into all of their potential damage, but Fencers have agreed that it would be a reasonable compromise. Nothing has been heard regarding this since. Fencers do not wish to intrude upon the advantage of the other melee professions... higher AP values, higher base weapon damage, damage modifiers... we just want to be able to make use of the advantage we were supoosed to have, speed. Please consider adjusting the speed cap for Fencers to a level that would realize more than a mere 2/3rds of our speed modifier.

We do have other alternative suggestions (if compromise on the speed cap is not an option) that I would be happy to offer if you would be open to hearing them. I'd rather not include them on this thread though.

Thank you so much for your time, Thunderheart!

-Raphayl, Fencer Correspondent

~Lyahpar~

La Femme Fencer

"Thrust if you love Fencers!"

As you know, I am very limited (NDA) in what I can copy/paste to here from the Correspondent forum, but these were my own words, and nothing you weren't already aware of. I just wanted you guys to be kept in the loop of how your profession was being represented there.

Heyas Raph,

It seems the issues have changed somewhat, based on the proposed *improvements* to our class. (For instance, doing away with the dodge animation may help to remedy the problem with lag and out of range opponents and PvP).... I hope though, that the other issues which were in the original list ( including restoring functionality to our status attacks, and instituting a viable method of slowing/stickingwith/stopping a kiting ranged opponet) don't get pushed aside...

I trust you to promote the issues most urgent.... But I need some assurance our other problems won't be forsaken....

Seena : )

My my... someone has a chip on their shoulder. The original post was already 1-starred, and no explanation why? That's pretty lame. How am I supposed to try and fix what you are mad about if you don't tell me why? Then again, I guess it's always far easier to cause a problem than to fix one. /shrug

Kali, as for your question, the other issues have not been pushed aside, or dropped off. But I also know ofsome things in the works that you can't see here yet. I didn't want to push any issue that I know is already known and beingaddressed. The above listed issues are the ones still outstanding that have a significant impact, and have not yet had a solution/repair proposed either on Test Center or the Corr Program. Our number one voted issue is still the number one issue (speed cap), the HAM issue is still in the top five as it has been, and the Dodge issue is an animation stutter that has recently amplified due to the Dodge boosts, and I thought we might want to have it addressed while it's still on TC, before it hits the live servers.

If anyone feels our voted list needs to be re-voted (which is likely the case due to all the Holocron passers-through) just let it be known and we can make it happen. There's no need to get all upset, and flame or 1-star anyone. Just calmly and professionally state your thoughts (providing you know how I guess) and we can work through it.

Sounds good Raph- like I said, I trust your awareness of what would get us the biggest bang for our Fencer 'buck'- *implicitly*.

I will be honest -- I vehemently protest a revote with the new holocron Fencers - they simply cannot compare what was, with what is now, nor are their goals (imo) necessarily ones which will benefit us in the long term.

Seena

I hear where you are coming from, Kali, but I wouldn't really worry about it too much. Those folks that are just passing through, and could care less about us on their path to being a l3wt d00d j3d1don't even seem to have the time to press the search button, or discuss things rationally and are unlikelyto read the rules of the Vote anyway, and would therefore gettheir vote invalidated. However to give credit where it is due, though, there are some new Fencers around that stumbled our direction because of the Holocrons that seem to be good genuine people, and able to intelligently contribute to the forum. They deserve to have a say, too.

In the end, I don't really see the order of the remaining issues to change much.

Your doing a awsome job its great to see changes for the better in are Profession.

I dislike holocron fencers with a passion because most of them couldnt care less about fencer as a class they just think of it as a way to become a jedi faster. Anyways there is a huge increase of fencers I used to be one of the onlyBlademasters in the galaxy (befor seena made it there that is) now there are tons of them. Anyways i hope you never leave us.

First off I must say that you have done excellently with your position Raphayl in addressing issues that are important to us. Keep up the hard work. My heart goes out to you with all the craziness that your position holds .

Secondly, and I have brought this up before in the brawler forum, is the tanking ability of all brawler classes. I know they are addressing this (as told by T. in the brawler forum), but I personally think that the issues addressed above will fix a good chunk of the major problem I see with the profession (as well as all brawlers). Again, I have mentioned this before in the other forum, but quite simply, as a fencer, I can't group with other high level players that are ranged. Any ranged person can group with another friend that is 4-8 skill boxes ahead and have no worry about not getting xp or repeatedly dieing out on the battlefield. Fencers on the other hand eat through the most difficult "HAM" to heal with no real advantages except for the current speed which is capped from the start regardless. Add this to the "auto melee agro" monsters have and you instantly see how fencers are the most "needy" person in a group situation. Who wants to group with a person that constantly needs healing, always gets agro on them so they can't get away from higher level monsters, and always lagging behind the group because they need mind heals. The only way I really get to group with others is due to my second skill which is master medic (working on Dr.).

I hope and pray that the increase dodge / dodge graphic fixes will fix many of the issues here. This is my only major complaint with this profession. I attacked 5 whites all at the same time yesterday and won. Now granted I had absolutely no mind left (I think something like 3 mind left), 30 health, and 10 action, but I won. I don't have any major problems with the class other than I get hit all the darn time and I can't seem to do any major damage unless I spam my specials (Bleed is an absolute necessity. Without this special I would have dropped fencer in a heartbeat) which basically force me to kill myself if I get hit in the head.
I have always loved speed melee characters. In any game out there speed melee has always had not as much damage but much better ability to doge and not be hit by other enemies. This coupled with the combined quickness of their damage would truly add to a formidable enemy. The current state of the profession is that we don't dodge / evade, the speed we get bonuses for are not significantly faster than any other brawler profession, and our weapons basically force mind suicide on us. I look foreward to the coming changes eagerly.

Thirdly, while we are on the topic of graphic fixes, I would like to see some graphic fixes for the different positions while holding bladed weapons. It is tiresome for me to see myself stabbing myself every time I do some action with a weapon in my hand. The notorious leg saw comes to mind when sitting. Keep in mind this is very minor. I don't fly into a tizzy when I see this, it just seems tacky.

Pah'Addino

"Pikeman weaponry do even more massive damage, and also have Medium Armor Piercing weapons... "

Whoa, um....Not sure, but the way this is worded says we do even more damage than the swordsmen with 600 max dmg. But, I don't think I've ever seen a player-made/sliced LVA do over 500 damage....we do have ap2 though.

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Gunman21 wrote:

"Pikeman weaponry do even more massive damage, and also have Medium Armor Piercing weapons... "

Whoa, um....Not sure, but the way this is worded says we do even more damage than the swordsmen with 600 max dmg. But, I don't think I've ever seen a player-made/sliced LVA do over 500 damage....we do have ap2 though.

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They do do more damage, when looked at from a certain perspective and taking a lot of the other factors (besides damage) in to account.

Check out Raph's post about this: http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=fencer&message.id=5695

It's a long but very fascinating read.

Gunman,

Let me clarify that I was referring to "on average". Of course no other melee weapon can compare to a righteous Power Hammer. However, the primary Pikeman weapons (Vibro-Lance and Long VibroAxe) do more damage thanany of the other melee weapons. I do hope Pikeman get their accuracy issues straightened out so they can make better use ofthose heavy hitters. From what I have seen the Pikeman Correspondent is religious about pursuing his goals for fixing the Pikeman class. With him on the job I have no doubt you'll see improvement.

Superb Raphayl.
Thanks,

Leftik

Although I would very much like what was proposed here, being balanced in damage output. However, do we want to be just equvilent of every other proffesion in DPS? Isnt there another way to balance the system other than makeing every proffesion the same with the only changes of time, damage and cosmetics?

Uniqueness is what is missing badly in this game, so few proffesions have that. TKA have meditation, Smugglers have perks to all sorts of things, Bounty hunters have special missions ( broke as the missions are they are still cool ) and to be honest that really is about the only proffesions that clearly DO something different.

Combat is more than DPS, its also about defense, and that is the key to a true fencer. Now I know we fencers just got a huge bump in defense mods, but should it stop there?

• Defense Stance - Temp boosts to defense or dodge,


• Duel Wielding - self explanatory this would compensate forDPS 'if' specials were enabled with bothweapons


• Parry - Another stance, but would inflict random staus effects, such as posture change/bleed/blind but deal no damage, and only happens if you are attacked while in position.

There is so much more thatSWG can be, but makeing each proffesion the same is not the answer.

Very good points, Fury. The Devs currently seem locked into a process regarding the strictest forms of advantages for melee... modification of damage or of defense. I would love to introduce some very original concepts and ideas for us Fencers. Ok, that's a half truth, for I have intorduced many original ideas outside of the basics... but with Mounts, Cities, and the recent changes the Devs explained that they simply did not have the time to devote to major unique additions to the game until they felt fairly comfortable about the status of the current elements.

Now that Mounts and Cities have been implemented, that's a big load of work done. There will need to be some time allocated to some adjustments here and there, but still a good lump of time should be freed up. Also, now that these big combat changes have made it to the live servers, that should free up another big lump of time.

At the time of this thread, all of these items were still "in progress" and consumed so much overhead that I knew original ideas would not be given serious attention.

But... perhaps now that things have calmed down a bit, it may be the time to start flirting with such things again. In fact, you have given me an idea. I'llmake us a thread where we can toss around some original and unique ideas to add some spice to Fencers. Without fail we'll get some unlikely suggestions, but some gems are bound to show up as well.

Great idea, Fury.