Fencer Archive

Face it, Fencers are weak.Fencers are the red headed stepchildren of a red headed step child combat type (melee).

Now that 1hand lunge is useless, the 1hlunge + dizzy knockdown combo no longer works. This used to be my only defense against ranged users. In a scenario of my high level fencer vs someone using ranged that combo was my only hope of even standing a chance, now with that gone i am useless in pvp vs a ranged user.

Here's the problems *I* see with fencer as well as some ideas taken from my experience as a IRL Epee fencer. Below are some ideas as to how to fix said problems, in order to make the fencer class a more fair, balanced, and realistic combat class.

1. Weapon speed. How is it that 2 hand swords do 2x more dmg and are just as fast?

2. Defensive skills. Everyone knows fencing is not hack and slash. Think Parry, Block, Thrust. Touche!

3.Lack of decent quest weapon. You mean i spent 8 friggin hours running jabba missions to get a sword that sucks compared to the 1h curved i bought for 3000 credits?

4. Absence of decent special moves. I find it hard to believe other ranged classes get a disarm shot and fencers dont. Go watch a real life epee fencing match, disarm is the name of the game. Dont even get me started on how other classes get bleeding shots, but fencers who study technique, as well as wound placement lack this ability. In my ex-profession I've seenmore gunshots, and quite a few blade inflicted wounds in real life than i would have liked to, and let me tell you there isnothing nastier and bloodier than aknife wound.

5. Variety of weapons, or lack thereof. Why do ranged pistol users have 3x more weapons to choose from? You mean to tell me theres 101 different kinds of pistols, but only 5 or 6 types of swords in the known galaxy??!?!

6. Inability to use dual weapons. If you're going to make us just as slow as 2 handed swordsmen, but do half the dmg, and give us less usefull special moves, atleast let us double up so we can do just as much dmg. SOME reacharound is in order here. To make it fair give us dual weapons, which when used give us an extra attack, but with a less likely chance to hit but at the same time adding to defense (think parrying knife etc.)

7. Stun batons. Why is it that stun batons, despite the name, dont STUN?

8. Abscence of melee toughness. Am i to believe an elite melee artist is just as subsceptable to kinetic dmg as a ranged user?!?!?

These are some of my gripes as well as a few ideas. I could list 2 dozen other gripes, but that would concern all Meele combat artists. Lets face it, if you ever want to get anywhere in this game forget being melee. For the time beingi reccomend Meele as a side skill,kind of a useless hobby.

DEVS: Either fish or cut bait. Make us tankers (or in some way shape or form usefull) or just cut meele out of the game altogether, except for jedi. People wownt even invite me into hunting parties if i plan on using my sword as i am just a drain on their stimpacks, dont absorb more dmg, do less dmg, and die quicker. Used to be meele artists were welcomed into parties, to run up and take the hits while the ranged guys give support from the back row, but with CH pets the way they are, we're out of a job.

Fencer- SEE: Least desirable Meele elite profession.

Melee- SEE: Obsolete.

P.S.

If you are reading this and agree with me reply back and gimme a HELL YEAH.

Put YOUR 2 cents in.

Duncann Idaho

Duelist extraordinaire

Kettemore

Hmm, what was that... "hell yeah," I believe? Okay, I shall! Opps, already did, huh?

Right when I posted up above you there, I sent in a suggestion form that said a lot of the same things, such as why our swords don't make people bleed at all, why we insist on hitting into armor when we're trained to find the weak points (like I can't hit the unpadded areas of padded armor? what the hell?), and general lack of variaty of weapons. Yet to hear anything back on it =/

At this rate, I might end up dropping Fencing and picking my rifle back up yet, and hell, I'm a sword fanatic; nothing takes me away from 'em. You know something is wrong here...

HELL YEAH!!! Like I say DEV don't know jack about fencer ...

I believe it goes...Hell Yeah

Seriously though, you touch on somemajor points.

Regarding bleeds, we do get a nice pair of bleeds, melee1hhealthhit1 and 2, on the fencer tree. But this by far doesn't encompass what we should be as a class.

The argument does stand that 2handed swordsmen have a large advantage in terms of raw weapon swinging. There are acouple(?) of AR weaps for them, with our AR weapon total at 1, and an AR rating of 1 for it(vibroblade; stun baton is not AR, just a type of resistance not found on most/any armors). What does this mean? Should thy nerf the holy heck outa 2 handed swordsmen? Hell NO! Just examine the current structure and make improvements on we-of-the-red-haired-persuasion ( ). I give much respect to the other melee professions, and don't want yall to think I'm picking on 2 handers, because they have different issues, but just as many as we do, being both a fellowmelee class and a fairly overlooked class.

I've stressed this numerous times, we should not be balance with items. Adding sheilds and/or dual wielding is all well and good, hell, I love the ideas. However, or main issues are with our current skill set and makeup. toughness is not there, our evasion skills dont seem like skills, but more like once a month miricles, and our advantage of supposed speed is met by the design of the other classes. Fencers inherently find the niches in armor, and thus should have some way to represent this. Furthermore, all melee should quite plainly be able to take out a 10,000 HAM training dummy (something that doesn't attack back, just there to represent damage taken) in the same relitive amount of time as any other melee user, withfencer damage comming as a constant stream of attack second only to TKA. If for example, a high damage, slow swing meleer like a pikeman takes this dummy out in 4 swings of 2500 damage a swing in1 minute, you should see the 2 handed guy take it out in 5 swings of 2000 damage in1 minute, the fencer in 10 swings of 1000 damage in1 minute, and perhapse the TKA in 20 swings at 500 damge in1 minute. All these are example only mind you .

Having said allthat, I will add these on to your main concerns

For our speed:

-Consider adding in a chance to double strike, gettin higher as the skill tree is climbed and make this only apply to 1hmelee, to negate any chances of this skill being taken up by other professions.

-Examine how our speed mods work. If it is the percentile as theorized by many on this board, that would mean, for a novice fencer, weapons of approximately 10.0 speed would hit the speed cap for us (1.0 )

For our Damage:

-Evaluate current weapon makeup.

-Allow for some form of armor pierce attack, much like the double strike mentioned above. Our weapon is not AR, but our SKILL allows us to find a way into the armor.

For our defenses:

-Examine our Toughness

-Examine our evasion

On being Kited:

-There needs to be SOME way to catch up to ranged users other than going master ranger and tacking on hundreds of terrain negotiation mods. On a flat surfface, with 64m separation between us and the ranged combatant, yes, we should take a decent beating, but there needs to be SOME hope. As we close in, and the ranged user runs, there will be an ever present gap. Regardless of ranged accuracy going down and ranged defense going up on the move, this just equates to a slower, more obnoxious death for us. This applies to BOTH PVE and PVP.

As always, these are my 2cred

Kudos and forever RAR!

Rooksarii, Fencer and Smuggler of the Watchkeepers, Radiant

**edit** WHY do they give Brawlers taunt then? TAUNT is supposed to draw aggro. According to their logic on it and the way these characters are being handled. Giving a melee taunt is the EQ equivalent of giving a cleric taunt. GOOD SHOW BOYS. Ive only been playing SWG 2 weeks and Ive already about had it. I played EQ For a year and had a level 52 Paladin with Epic and all and several other characters. And what I learned is SOE and its developers SCREW certain classes and they NEVER get fixed no matter how politely we complain or how angrily we bitch. Dont bother talking to the devs boys. They might fix it in a very small way, but if this game follows EQ's example which it is so far. Future patches will continue to **edit** foot around the issue while screwing the class in many other ways. Ive about had it with SOE because of this. I know it seems liek Im blowing my top fast, but I was a fanatic with the Paladn class in EQ and all I ever got in return was enraged and insulted. I know its so soon in the game. EQ has been out YEARS and has so many expansions. But, this game looks like they havent learned their lesson. And its also making me say SCREW it to EQ2. If you want all the glory and the fun in Everquest play a Cleric, Warrior, Wizard or Enchanter. If you want to have all the fun and glory in SWG play a ranged class. They wont change this, because of their precious "balancing" which is nothing but UNBALANCING.

Sorry for my hot headedness of my previous post. Im just sick of enjoying a game and having it ruined becuase of stuff like this.

Let me tell you a little story.......

As said before I played Everquest. I dont know how many of you guys did. But Ill speak as if none of you have just to go into detail. I wont cover the whole thing, just the stuff that can be related to SWG.

As previously stated I played a Paladin. I have alot of love for Paladins, Holy Knights etc..... But in Everquest....Many "high end guys" and guys with alot of experience would always tell you. "Pallies rock man". Yeah...the Pallies they know rock, with their multi million platinum gear and no drop stuff off the hardest mobs in the game. Of course thats an over statment because you would be LAUGHED at if you even wanted in on a roll for a good piece of gear. Why waste it on a paper tank Pally? It wasnt until much later on, like in PoP that Pallies and Shadowknights got a huge assortment of weapons that only they could use. But it was far too little, too late. Paladins, sucked. Now heres the thing, a really well armed, high level, skilled Pally. Could help out a group and hell a raid in very unique ways. But..... otherwise, if you didnt have those skills, that gear, that experience. Youre pretty much 1/4th a warrior and a wanna be cleric.

Heres the thing, as our friend has pointed out about Fencers... Anyone who thinks of a Fencer thinks of a master of the blade. Precise, swift, highly defensive and able to inflict critical blows with lethal accuracy.....

When I think of a Paladin you have to look at the base part of a Paladin. A Knight. I was always under the impression that Knights were an elite. They were the BEST trained and the BEST equipped. PERIOD. Then howcome some peasant, barbarous "warrior" FAR FAR FAR outclasses a Knight in every aspect of Melee combat? I wasnt aware that the Knights of yore go their a$$es handed to them by th peasantry and ragtag mercenaries with no real training, crappy to no gear, andno honor. The second half of a Paladin, the healing part. Makes it even more insulting. The D&D defenition of a Paladin is " A holy Knight, that by great acts of faith and courage, has earned special divine powers and blessings from their god" And yet STILL ragtag warriors are more powerful than highly trained knights BLESSED BY THE DIVINE!?!?!?! Am I missing something?

Shadowknights were basically the antithesis to Paladins. But they were overall a better class. One argument people ALWAYS used was "stop bitching, you have lay on hands". OHHHHHH WOW, so for ONE fight I can have almost as much hp as a Warrior does ALL THE TIME!! And guess what? Shadowknights got an AA ability that allowed their Hurt touch to be a drain! So now Sks can HT for 700 damage and gain 700 life? Wow *COUGH* unbalancing.

Rangers were an utter joke in more ways than one. However in time they too outshined Pallies and Sks. Rangers could not tank for $hit. I dont care how good of a Ranger you are, any stories you hear of Rangers being good tanks in any situation is pure BS. However Rangers outdamages Pallies and Sks by a LARGE margin. They could dual weild. And.... their bows......

Ok Pallies got Slay undead. An insane ability that allows them to Critical hit undead for insane damage. Problem is it got nerfed. And also it ONLY works on undead. Which all in all there werent all that many undead mobs for a Paladins slay undead to really shine.

Now Rangers got the bow. With Am3 and endless quiver... they could hit ANNNNNNNNYYYYY mob type for nearly as much damage a a paladins slay undead AT A GREAT DISTANCE. Yet another "Paladin wonder" that got crapped on and outshined.

Paladins also had much less hp than a Warrior and less ac. The books defenition said "A holy fighter who fights NEARLY AS GOOD AS A WARRIOR and has healing abilities" or some such thing. Nearly as good as a warrior eh? ROFLROFLROFLROFLLMAOLMAOLMAOLMAO XDXDXD!!! Yeah right. Perhaps a Paladin MIGHT be able to dish out CONSISTENTLY as much damage as a warrior, IF THEY EVER HIT. Paladins hit miss ratio was HOPRRENDOUS. Which brings me back to this yet again... So Paladins are Knights? And Knights have the finest training and skill with weapons? Right? THEN HOW COME IM SO CLUMSY AND SO POORLY ACCURATE? If IM SO GEATLY TRAINED as a Knight should be. HOW COME I CANT HIT THE BROAD SIDE OF A BARN WITH A GARBAGE TRUCK??? >.o

Also, In order to close the damage gap. Most Pallies and Shadowknights had to and preffered to use @hs weapons. LOL well thats funny, you see I have the ability to hit of a one armed blind man with chicken pox and now Im forced to use this SLOW weapon? It didnt matter anyways, Warriors and.... RANGERS. Who BOTH have dual weild also BOTH had HIGHER 2HS caps THAN PALLIES AND SHADOWKNIGHTS. **edit** IS THAT???

Lastly on the Pally example and to move into the SWG aspect of this rant. In EQ there were the "Royalty classes" and then there were the other classes. In EQ Clerics were there worst. Most Clerics were ARROGANT and thought their $hit didnt stink. Then there were Warriors, Wizards and Enchanters. Wizards werent too bad and of the 4 got shafted the most by far. Warriors often cried because of lack of this and that. When they didnt need anything else, they were far and beyond the best at what they did.

There was only one aspect of a Pally that really shined. They could attain and hold aggro better than any class. And with lay hands and the fastest casting heals in the game. A Paladin was by far the best Caster guardian. Cleric get healing aggro? Wizzy over nuke? Some jerk break a mez and the Enchies getting walloped? Well a pally will quickly gain aggro, stun the mob and root park it if possible. And heal the caster very fast. Which in a raid and high end grouping. Saves the raid, saves the group. But this was under appreciated. Warriors still cried that Pallies got TOO much aggro, and Clerics (although we can save them just as much as they do us) still complained about healing us because of the low health and low ac. Knight inshining armor indeed. Paper armor.

Paladins had no place other than that really. They had a few high level buffs that were desired but thats it. There might be more too it but I never got to the really uber high level game. Youll hear...

"Need Shaman for slows"

"Group needs Rogue to move"

"Group needs Warrior and Cleric to move"

"Group needs Enchie for mess or cannot break room"

And so on for just about any and all classes.....except the Paladin...

People bitched,moaned, groaned, yelped, hollered, cried. And nothing ever got done.

"I want Clerics to be a highly desired class. I want Clerics to have X abilities so a group will say. We really need X, and a Cleric has X, so we need a Cleric."

-Richard Waters (I think thats his name) EQ lead developer or some crap, its been a while since I read it.

Clerics couldnt solo. They were so loved and so good at alot of things. They could wear plate, which to them seemed like crap, but ask a Enchie if hed like to have plate. They had the best heals by far. They had pretty good nukes and.... To keep their eyes dry they were given a summoned hammer that Proced for 150, with a +20 dex on it. Which basically means PROCPROCPROCPROCPROCPROCPROC. Wow LOOK the Clerics outdamagng the Pally! Oh look, the Cleric got Aggro and died! Im sure theyll yell at the tanks now!

The moral of this story?

SOE, Verant WHATEVER. They play CLASS favoritisim. Some classes get it good, a few are pampered babies. And others as in SWG with the Melee classes. GET SCREWED HARD. And nothing will change that. Dont hope too hard for improments Ladies and Gentlemen. They claim its balancing but it isnt. And in any case its a lost cause. If they do fix the shafted classes, the classes who have it good will cry like sissies about how it isnt fair. So its all pointless, in the end you have to learn to play and love your class for what it is. I was told that Norrath Paladins and the Paladins of other lore and games were two different things. Well then, Norrathian Paladins are NOT PALADINS. And Star Wars FENCERS ARE NOT FENCERS. At least, change the class name. Or read a few books, use your brain. And come back to us with a betetr class when you know what youre doing. Im beyond asking nicely, this is ridiculous.

Ps a Gorgon is what Medusa was. A Gorgon is NOT A harpy. Go to the plane of fear in EQ and youll see what I mean. They cant even get basic Mythology down, you expect them to make Paladins and Fencers and Swordsmen any good? And also a TKA is a Monk, period. And Monks got it good. Therefore TKA will get it good. And if they nerf TKA, like they did to monks ac and feign death in EQ. They will cry crocodile tears till they get un nerfed. Like they did in EQ.

Dont get your hopes up friends. I know Im not.

I have nothing but respect for anyone that played a high level Paladin in EQ. I played one up to level 12 or so and simply couldn't hack it, so I went back to my Monk. Oh, I'd contend that both Rangers and Monks could get and hold aggro better than Paladins, in certain instances. Rangers are awfully good at getting themselves killed, and a monk who has pull aggro will be rather hard-pressed to dump it if he doesn't FD and/or back off. Man, a Monk with an Adamantite Bo Staff or a Tranquill Staff and high dex would just rack up the aggro...

Anyway, back on topic. Yes, Fencers seem to be the worst combat class in the game now, bar none. We just need a more powerful lobby or something...oh, wait, we do have that 16 page thread in Discussion that hasn't been responded to...

Well, keep fighting the good fight. Maybe something will hapen. Maybe not.

LOL Must have been even sissier Paladins on your server if they couldnt steal aggro from a Monk. I know Monks damage dealing ability could probably be said is better than Rangers/Rouges. But if youre a Paladin jamming on taunt, landing hits for 120 damage andlanding stun spells. That mobs gonna be awfully pi$$sed off. The only one who EVER Stole aggro from me was a much higher level warrior, and ...... another Paladin. I dont know how many times I died/got bitched at, for stealing aggro from the MA. ^^ But it seems like EQ is like anything else, alot ofit is a matter of opinion. And I wish Fencers didnt suck, I really like them. I see Novices heavy swordsmen, Master heavy swordsmen every day. But no fencers.....Guess we know the reason huh? =/

Heh heh, I had my dex jacked up pretty high, probably around 160ish, and I had a Tranquil Staff. 29/30, procs an unresistable120DD variable length stun (1-12 secs). Oh dear, *that* pissed them off.

Did I mention I had a CoF?

Oh dear lol, why are we even debating this. This type of thing got nowhere on the EQforums and this is SWG. In anycase, back on subject.

Ive abandoned my prior plans and moved onto new ones. Right now Im using a 2h sword, at level 3 skill for brawler. And I did what I think was 2h hit 2. And I hit for 953 dmg. Plus it seems like I dont miss so much. I go afk in a patch of loon spawns and come back up to my neck in corpses and very little damage done to me. I guess 2hs isnt as bad as I thought, but poor fencers are still weak. Which is why Ive given up on em. I hope they change stuff for you guys soon. =/

OMG!!! MY RYYK PROCCED DISMISS UNDEAD!!! OMG!!1!! ITS NOT TEH GHOULBANE!1!

Haha, I also was an EQ Paly, why is it I always pick the crappy classes?

Youre probably like me. You have an idea in your head of what the class SHOULD be. So you play it..................

The only reason Im arguing about the aggro thing was that, and saving casters was all I was good for. Couldnt do anything else that some other class couldnt do 10x better. At level 52 Pallies have like 5 or 6 stun spells, all pretty fast casting and 2 did a bit of damage. Constantly cast those.....even if a mob resists the stun effect it will still interrupt casting and get aggro. I also had the paladin epic, I believe it was a 30/35 and it proced a 155 hp dd stun. Hasted with valor of marr and a cof I was hitting for over a 100 very fast and between my master taunt, the proced stuns, the casted stuns and 2 handed bash. I was any warriors (or clerics XD) worst nightmare. I just wish I had a windblade. =p

But it seems Fencers are in a sense the pallys of SWG, they cant do anything that other classes cant do 10x better....Then again I suppose thats ALL melee classes, so I ought to just shut up. Im going to play a wait and see now. Im not playing SWG anymore till I see you guys say something positive on these boards.