Fencer Archive

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WNxSaKeN wrote:
Awesome... one more thing though.. does fencer dodge work with a TKA using vibros? or without vibros? or not at all?

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it does not.

Just one point to make...

Dodge block and counter attack all work with other weapons...

It's just rare as hell for anyone to actually see something other than their highest mod effect, because if a hit gets thru our uber melee defense it will likely pierce our dodge/block/counter attack mods.

AND since it checks the appropriate mod for the weapon you are useing first if it does get stopped it doesn't check the others.

But yes indeed I have countered while useing my Gaffi.

Yes I have dodged while useing my Two handed curved sword.

And I have dodged and countered and blocked while useing my VK's

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Raphayl wrote:

A Master Fencer's One-handed Weapon Accuracy is +150 plus whatever is on the weapon plus or minussituational modifiers. A Master Fencer's Melee Defense is only +74 plus or minussituational modifiers. Unless the Master Fencer had additional Melee Defense from another profession, there is still a mod difference of (150-74)= +76 Accuracy. This still gives the attacker a pretty good chance of hitting. But the Master Fencer gets a second chance with a Dodge of +105. Accuracy of 150 - Dodge of 105 = +45 Accuracy. Again a fairly reasonable chance to hit, although not as good as he had on the first pass through. Then again, one of a Fencer's strengths is incredible Accuracy. There is a bit more to how this is actually computedthan I just implied, but this still serves to get the basic point across.

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Is that the devs confirmed way the active defenses work; as a second chance using dodge instead of the melee/ranged defense in the same formula?How does the formulachange when you CoB?

A Master fencers should still have a pretty good chance of hitting Fencers/Pistoleers though, Non CoB. Here is the formula that Noules000 posted as a good guess on the "to hit":

Chance to Hit = 0.66 + (Accuracy Skill Mods - Ranged Defense Skill Mods + Weapon Range Mod - Target Posture Mod)/2 + (Shooter Posture Mod) + (Special Move Mod) + (Target State Mod)

Assuming 0 on all posture and range mods, that would still give for auto attacks:

.66+(150 - 205)/2 = 38.5% for autoattacks.

For Hit3, You would have a +25mod(if swgcenter.com is correct, [? thought your mods were similar to pistol you are getting +25, while they get +50. but dont think they get 150 accuracy, so you might even out])

.66+(150 - 205)/2 +25 = 88.5% for Hit3

This does not seem that bad, but i'm not sure how the % changes after CoB. If eff is a % mod added to dodge, it could be a problem.

If efficiency is a direct % increase, here is how 90 would effect the attack

.66 +(150-(1.9*205))/2 +25 = -28% (think there is a min 5% chance)

I can see the problem if this is how Cob works. Maybe put caps on how high a Cob Raises defenses?

--Rorrimot

Awesome... one more thing though.. does fencer dodge work with a TKA using vibros? or without vibros? or not at all?

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Awon wrote:
I personally think its very balanced if a person decides to spend that many skill points on a profession that makes them more defencesivethey should be allowed to do so it makes the game more real that a person that has master more professions having to do with one handed combat dodges more than the others. Just like a doc/fencer can take a lot more hits than everyone else.

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Sure, if a person goes for a build that focuses on defense then they should be harder to hit, but not impossible to hit. If CoB is a % increase according to eff. then, +205 gives a- 28% chance to hit when using fencers' Hit3. (Notice the negative?, that means he is NOT hit unless there is a lower limit. ) But as I said above, I'm not sure how CoB effects the formula, that was just a guess on how it changes it.

--Rorrimot

I think whether something is balance or not is determine by if there is anything else in the game that can counter it.

ok, Fencer/Pistoleer have 210 dodge mod, is there any other way that a range player can get that high of accuracy? say a BH/Pistoleer/smuggler character with all the accuracy skill tree? i do not know what that will be, but if he can still hit us when we are not CoB, then i think stacking dodge is fine.

now is the defense mod, we as melee, i truely think we need it, coz' all range player pursue is their offensive mod, all they need is to kill the enemy before they kill them, for us, we have to have a high defense mod in order to defense while we chase them.

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meyer1215 wrote:

A Master fencers should still have a pretty good chance of hitting Fencers/Pistoleers though, Non CoB. Here is the formula that Noules000 posted as a good guess on the "to hit":

Chance to Hit = 0.66 + (Accuracy Skill Mods - Ranged Defense Skill Mods + Weapon Range Mod - Target Posture Mod)/2 + (Shooter Posture Mod) + (Special Move Mod) + (Target State Mod)

Assuming 0 on all posture and range mods, that would still give for auto attacks:

.66+(150 - 205)/2 = 38.5% for autoattacks.

For Hit3, You would have a +25mod(if swgcenter.com is correct, [? thought your mods were similar to pistol you are getting +25, while they get +50. but dont think they get 150 accuracy, so you might even out])

.66+(150 - 205)/2 +25 = 88.5% for Hit3

If efficiency is a direct % increase, here is how 90 would effect the attack

.66 +(150-(1.9*205))/2 +25 = -28% (think there is a min 5% chance)

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Not to dscredit Noules000, as he's a pretty astute guy, I have seen his analysis. Going off the results he has seen, his formula makes complete sense. The only problem with his method is that his tests involve two characters that both already had modifiers. Since both have modifiers, and the function of these modifiers are whatyou are trying to determine, you are beginning with two unknown variables and that can significantly throw off the numbers. I can come up with a few different forumlas that end up with the same results. To know for certain what the forumal is, you must either have aleast one ofthe two test charactershave a control value, and the only control value we have is our initial abilitiesof a newb character with no training.
Or you need to convince a Dev to spill the beans =)

".66+(150 - 205)/2 = 38.5%" is pretty interesting math . You have to follow the Order of Mathematical Equations.

Assuming these numbers and formula were legit, I get:

• .66 + (150 - 205) / 2


• .66 + (-55) / 2


• .66 + -27.5


• -26.94

And -26.94% on Autoattacks is not correct. So something is wrong with this forumla. Perhaps some brackets (to change the OME) have been left out?

".66+(150 - 205)/2 +25 = 88.5%" is also strange. Your first formula (by your calculations) came out to 38.5, so how does adding +25 come out to 88.5? (38.5 +25 = 63.5)

Assuming these numbers and formula were legit, I get:

• .66 + (150 - 205) / 2 +25


• .66 + (-55) / 2 + 25


• .66 + -27.5 +25


• -26.94 +25


• -1.94

And -1.94% for Hit3 is not correct. So again, something must be amiss.

These will be covered in detail when I get to that FAQ. I just finished with the one for Weapon stat functions, and how Wounding is calculated, and the HAM multipliers for our specials. I only need a little more data for the FAQ on how HAM secondaries figure into the cost calculations and regenaration rates and I'll have all of them done. Then I can get this one finished. I wish there was more hours in the day, or I had less RL requirments on my time so I couldI could get these out faster.

The word is "Efficacy," rather than "Efficiency," (but the two words are nearly synonymous so it doesn't really matter. ) How it works will be included in the FAQ soon as well.

".66 +(150-(1.9*205))/2 +25 = -28% (think there is a min 5% chance)"

• .66 + (150 - (1.9 * 205)) / 2 + 25


• .66 + (150 - (389.5)) /2 +25


• .66 + (-239.5) / 2 + 25


• .66 + -119.75 + 25


• -119.09 + 25


• -94.09

I'd have to go look at Noules000's formula again. Perhap something changed in the copy/paste process?

At any rate, your original question was:

"Is that the devs confirmed way the active defenses work; as a second chance using dodge instead of the melee/ranged defense in the same formula?"

Two parts to that question:

"Is that the devs confirmed way the active defenses work; as a second chance using dodge instead of the melee/ranged defense..."

And the answer is "Yes", they have. (Activates COB and Dodges the Developer lightning bolts.) The Melee/Ranged Defense mods are the "first pass" of the to-hit equation, and the Dodge/Block/Counterattack/Acuity are the "second pass" of the to-hit equation. The "second chance" defensive skills only come into play if the attack makes it past the initial defenses. This is part of why your Melee Defense makes you Dodges percentage seem to change. Yes, your Dodge percentage of the total attacks on you changes with your Melee Defense mods. What you want to look at is the percentage of the attacks that aren't "misses." If you want to check the effectiveness of your current Dodge versus a particular opponent, use this formula:

Number_of_Dodges / (Total _Incoming_Attacks - Pure_Misses) * 100 = Dodge%

You'll want a minimum of 100 non-"missing" incoming attacks to have a chance to fill the 100 range percentage bracket and see relatively accurage percentages. Less than that an the random number generator, rounding issues, and certain other external factors can create anomalies. The more qualified "non-miss" attacks the more accurate the percentage will tend to be. In my calculations to determine pecentages I always wait until I have at least1000 qualified samples. It taks the error factor down to less than 0.1%.

And the second part:

"...in the same formula?"

Not exactly, but simliar.

Message Edited by Raphayl on 12-07-2003 10:44 AM

I think that it is rather unfair how we can dodge a ton of shots, however the devs also have to take into consideration that if they nerf this there going down the dark road of melee, as of now im aware that these combi classes with dodge counterattack block stacks are the only thing that can really hold strong to a tkm, so if they were to nerf it, what would they do about the tkm +70 dmg mod at nov + master, and their +210 accuracy, how bout that super knockdown, i think considering this, its fine the way it is, after all a tkm doesnt have to spend nearly as much skill points to master tk, as we do to get all the uber dodge bonuses

I personally think its very balanced if a person decides to spend that many skill points on a profession that makes them more defencesivethey should be allowed to do so it makes the game more real that a person that has master more professions having to do with one handed combat dodges more than the others. Just like a doc/fencer can take a lot more hits than everyone else.

Yean, I think you either need to make the .66 a 66 or make the second term: (accuarcy-defense)/200. The base chance to hit is supposed to be 66% and not .66% (i.e. when you have no accuracy or defense mods you should hit 66% of the time).

And the answer is "Yes", they have. (Activates COB and Dodges the Developer lightning bolts.) The Melee/Ranged Defense mods are the "first pass" of the to-hit equation, and the Dodge/Block/Counterattack/Acuity are the "second pass" of the to-hit equation. The "second chance" defensive skills only come into play if the attack makes it past the initial defenses.

While I don't doubt this, I have not seen it been confirmed that dodge/block/counterattack work using the same or similar to-hit formulas as the initial to hit. I mean, it seems to be confirmed that dodge happens after the to-hit formula is processed, but I haven't seen any results either way indicating how the dodge formula actually works or how CoB affects it. I believe Noules just tested the initial to-hit. It certainly seems plausible that they are similar, but I haven't personally seen confirmation.

Is there some test data or dev post on this that I'm just not aware of?

StGabe.

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StGabriel wrote:
While I don't doubt this, I have not seen it been confirmed that dodge/block/counterattack work using the same or similar to-hit formulas as the initial to hit.

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That's not what I said, so I may not have been clear. I said they confirmed that there are two passes of the "to-hit" check, and that Dodge works on a different pass than Melee Defense, and NOT all combined in the same one-time-check formula.

Down towards the end of my post it can be noted that I said that the "with the same formula" was a second part of the question. The formulas are NOT the same, but my testing indicates that they are very similar in nature and still take into account the attackers Accuracy.

EDIT: Added in the yellow "NOT". I intended for it to be there the first time and just noticed I skipped it.

Message Edited by Raphayl on 12-07-2003 05:20 PM

Note that is this were the formula then the combination of fencer and pistoleer (or any other such combo) would be worse than any stacking of say block and dodge. The reason for this is that they are added together to have a much better chance of overcoming accuracy.

So, let's say the dodge/block/counter formula is:

66 + (accuracy-defense)/200

Presumably the other mods will basically end up a wash. Well, a lot of professions have a base accuracy of around 110 (pistoleer gets 95 plus 15 when standing, commandos get +110 for flamethrowers, etc.).

Then the chance of getting through dodge with stacked modifiers would be:

66 + (110-210)/200 = 16%

Now, two hypotheses for the effect of CoB are that they add to your dodge/block/counter mods or that they multiply. Either way, CoB + stacked mods will make one unhittable with +110 accuracy and unhittable to any "pure" build including a TKA, which gets the highest accuracy mods in the game. If CoB adds instead of multiplying (the best case for the TKA), then a TKA would have a

66 + (210-210-135)/200 = -1.5%

chance of hitting. If it multiplies then it only gets worse.

So, if this is indeed the formula then basically there is indeed basically no way to hit a person with CoB and stacked dodge mods. Presumably there might be some minimum accuracy of 5% or so (systems like this often include such a caveat), but I haven't seen anyone demonstrate through testing what happens.

Now say we considered two seperate bonuses of 105 applied to two different defenses. In other words, instead of adding these bonuses for one chance to dodge, you simply consider two chances to dodge with only one mod used for each.

In this case, the chance to be hit through dodge/block/counter each time, against someone with 110 accuracy is:

66 + (110-105)/200 = 68.5

So you have a 68.5% chance of getting hit through dodge the first time, and a .685*685 = 47% chance of getting hit the second time. This is not nearly as effective as the original adding of numbers indicating that fencer+pistol, swords+carbine and pike+rifle are all much more powerful combinations themselves than simply stacking defense modifiers from different secondary defenses.

In general I think that result will tend to be true whatever the actual dodge/block/counter formula. Again, I'd like to see better evidence to support any claims that the formula has any specific form. From what I have seen, it could be vastly different than the to-hit formula. If we assume that CoB is additive or multiplicative then we see that this formula should make it virtually impossible for anyone with a +110 accuracy mod to hit a fencer with CoB.

Additive
66 + (110-105-135)/200 = 1.5%

Multiplicative
66 + (110-105*2.35)/200 = -1.6%

I'm not a master fencer (yet, hopefully soon), but are fencers really seeing along the lines of only 1 in 60 shots from a pure pistoleer or command hit them??? If not then CoB stacks in some other way, or the initial formula isn't really correct for dodge. If so, then wow. =-)

StGabe.

That's not what I said, so I may not have been clear. I said they confirmed that there are two passes of the "to-hit" check, and that Dodge works on a different pass than Melee Defense, and all combined in the same one-tim-check formula.

Ok, I wasn't sure what you meant, but it seem that at least some people were taking this as saying that the formulas were identical or nearly so.

StGabe.