Fencer Archive
Thread: Important TC Patch Info 11/26/2003
Well, it appears that there has been a little misunderstanding on my part. so i apologize for the above post. According to the brawler correspondent, he is now godly. the regen rate as for as special moves go (unfortunately, he wasnt able to look into my issue of the intim, warcry, taunt, bserk, and cob) is insanely fast, and he is able to spam away and essential finish battles quickly, and appear to have taken 0 damage.
So, all I can say is that I love that fact, but I am sure it will be "tweaked" by the time it goes live. I just hope that they don't overtweak it into the realm of the nerf stick.
1. The new to hit how much does that effect us? And it will not effect dodge/ counterattack/ block since they are hits?
2. Mitigation, ok that is better but I truely dont see the point, a Rancor 605-615 damage, mitigation will what bring this to 605-609? What is the point? And what is the nessecity of giving Ranged mitigation, if the point was to let melee be tanks?
M0G4N wrote:
The new HAM system is garbage. 25 seconds to fully heal a special usage? c'mon. battles against a single creature (save for the big nasties) hardly last 25 seconds currently.
Yes, that was my initial argument as well. In testing though, I found that in those short battles the regeneration wasn't so much a factor as the fact that I could actually perform more specials in that short time before it even became an issue since the cost didn't stack directly on top of incoming damage. I was surprised at how nice it worked. I grudgingly had to walk back up to the Devs and say, "Ok, ok, so I was wrong... this rocks."
M0G4N wrote:
Now if i miss, i have to wait 50 secs (i can only imagine using it twice in a row) to try it again?
Oh no, hun... I'm sorry I must not have made that part veryclear. My apologies. It hard trying to explain this... er... stuff.
The regeneration timer doesn't keep stacking up in a queue like that. 2 specials performed one second after the othereach begin regenerating immediately after being performed. So you would have completely recovered form the first special 25 seconds after you performed it, and will have completely recovered from the next special after one more second. If you performed 3 specials in 3 seconds, the first would be completely recovered in 25 seconds, the next 1 second later, and the last 1 second more. All were regenerating at the same time. You actually see the maximum jumping up by leaps if you are regenerating several specials at a time.
FalloutSBM wrote:
One other question...lets say the HAM cost is 25/25. That basically means that every tick I would gain back all the HAM I lost to do the special. I start with 1000 health, use my special that costs 25 health, which brings me to 975 Health Maximum. A tick later that 25 has regenerated back up to a Maxiumum of 1000 barring I didn't get damaged. Is that correct? So technically, if thats correct, if I use a weapon with low enough HAM costs, I would never actually be losing any HAM.
Not quite. The 25 you are referring to isn't the amount of HAM regenerated back for tick, it is the number of seconds required to regenerate back what you invested. In your above example, if the HAM cost for a move was 25/25, then each pool would regenerate their 25 points back in 25 seconds.... 1point per tick. If the move had cost 100/100, then each pool would regenerate their 25 points back in 25 seconds... 4 points per tick. If you did 5 100point specials in a row, then you would be regenerating all of them at the same time for a remarkable 20 points per tick.
The main thing you want to look at here is the Mind. Mind costs for specials has been our number one limiter for a long time (as far as specials cost go). Mind is very difficult to arrange buffs for that are practical, and you cannot heal the Mind in combat. IE: Once your Mind was gone, the battle was pretty much over. With this new method your Mind costs regenerate fasterthan a Zabrak with maxed Willpower on Moulon Gold!
FalloutSBM wrote:
Also, when it regenerates...is it actually regenerating each tick during the ticks, or once the timer reachs full it bumps my Maximum HAM back to 1000 from 975 and then my action poor has to progress back up there on it's own? I just don't understand the seperate timers...and whether or not when the timer reachs full your get your HAM back or you just get the maximum allowed back. If you get the HAM back, then specials with a good enough weapon would cost nothing...if it just increases the maximum back to normal, people could still use stimpacks, could they not?
I think my explanation just above covers this. But just in case, yes, you are regenerating 1/25th of the cost of each separate special simulatenously on each tick.
KaliMirchi wrote:
It's difficult to comment on whether this is good or bad without actually *trying* it. I suspect it will frustrate people with medic skills, (which I have) - but I'd love to be able to drop them to pick up CH again.....
Time will tell I guess!
Seena
Good call, Kali. That's one of the things the Devs said theywere hoping for on this change. Without it, having medical skills was an absolute must. This change will let us (for the most part) return to focusing on being combatants, and not combatants/medics.
A point about the HAM changes:
This is further proof that the DEVS either do not play their own game or have no idea how it works.
For Christ's sake wake up and get a grip.
FURY_Chaser wrote:
1. The new to hit how much does that effect us? And it will not effect dodge/ counterattack/ block since they are hits?
2. Mitigation, ok that is better but I truely dont see the point, a Rancor 605-615 damage, mitigation will what bring this to 605-609? What is the point? And what is the nessecity of giving Ranged mitigation, if the point was to let melee be tanks?
1. I'm not sure I follow your question, but I'll answer what I think you're asking. It affects us when you (actually) get up toe to toe with a combatant that is using a ranged weapon and they continue to shoot you while you are attacking them with a melee weapon. Previously, we would gain multipliers to ourt damage. The ranged professions put up a good enough fight to the Devs that this was removed. To replace it, once we get up to thsi same spot our accuracy (or their melee defense) is adjusted to allow us to hit them pretty much without fail. Of course, they still get their chance to Dodge if they possess it... but remember ranged don't get CoB, so they won't Dodge as often as Fencers are gettingaccustomed to. Yes, it will be checked more often now since we will be hitting them more often, but the percentage of our hits that are Dodged will be the same... ergo: More total hits will land since more made itpast the initial change to hit.
2. "a Rancor 605-615 damage" If this is actually their entire damage range then what you calcualted is correct. Is 605-615 just what you have seen them hit you for on average, or did you get this number form somewhere? Or are you just making a "what-if" comparison? According to the Devs (but they could have bene mistaken... and if that's the cose then this would need to be adjusted) higher-end modbs like that are supposed to have a pretty wide damage spread, but because of "other factors" they tend to hit high on their range. Despite these "other factors" Mitigation will still reduce that range down by 20/40/60%. So even if they do still hit high on their damage range more frequently, that potential damage range will have been reduced.
From my personal testing on TC, this is a beneficial thing, not a negative thing. I must admit, that no amount of posts by the Devs on this.... regardless how it was described... would have convinced me of this. It just sounded too weird to work out right. But I am humbled. The changes are actually wonderful for the most part.
I can't begin to count the number fo times I have posted, or heard someone else post "I kill myself faster with my specials than my opponent can!" Although thinking about it 25 second regeneration time may sound awefully long, in practice it works out rather well. I think it may have to do with the fact that it's hard to invision all of these specials regenerating simulataneously. Once you spam a few specials, with them all regenerating at the same time, you can literally watch you HAM max soar back up.
On another note... this change benefically impacts us Fencers moreso than some other melee professions. Why? Because their HAM costs are higher. Yes, they do more damage, but consider this:
WeaponA has a HAM cost of 25, and WeaponB has a HAM cost of 50. If each performed an equal special at the same time, both will be completely regenerated in 25 seconds. No difference yet. But now consider if both were willing to spam until they reached 100 HAM cost. For WeaponA, 4 can be spammed (4X25=100), and for WeaponB, only 2 can be spammed (2X50=100). WeaponA would regenerate each of those specials at (25/25=5HAM each per tick) for a total of (4X5) 20 HAM per tick. WeaponB would regenrate each of those specials at (50/25=2HAM per tick) for a total of (2X2) 4 HAM per tick. Yes, I know, it's a just mathematical mind trick, and we actually still get fuilly healed within seconds of each other... but at least it feels like we accomplished more during that time. 
Raphayl wrote:
FURY_Chaser wrote:
1. The new to hit how much does that effect us? And it will not effect dodge/ counterattack/ block since they are hits?
2. Mitigation, ok that is better but I truely dont see the point, a Rancor 605-615 damage, mitigation will what bring this to 605-609? What is the point? And what is the nessecity of giving Ranged mitigation, if the point was to let melee be tanks?
1. I'm not sure I follow your question, but I'll answer what I think you're asking. It affects us when you (actually) get up toe to toe with a combatant that is using a ranged weapon and they continue to shoot you while you are attacking them with a melee weapon. Previously, we would gain multipliers to ourt damage. The ranged professions put up a good enough fight to the Devs that this was removed. To replace it, once we get up to thsi same spot our accuracy (or their melee defense) is adjusted to allow us to hit them pretty much without fail. Of course, they still get their chance to Dodge if they possess it... but remember ranged don't get CoB, so they won't Dodge as often as Fencers are gettingaccustomed to. Yes, it will be checked more often now since we will be hitting them more often, but the percentage of our hits that are Dodged will be the same... ergo: More total hits will land since more made itpast the initial change to hit.
2. "a Rancor 605-615 damage" If this is actually their entire damage range then what you calcualted is correct. Is 605-615 just what you have seen them hit you for on average, or did you get this number form somewhere? Or are you just making a "what-if" comparison? According to the Devs (but they could have bene mistaken... and if that's the cose then this would need to be adjusted) higher-end modbs like that are supposed to have a pretty wide damage spread, but because of "other factors" they tend to hit high on their range. Despite these "other factors" Mitigation will still reduce that range down by 20/40/60%. So even if they do still hit high on their damage range more frequently, that potential damage range will have been reduced.
got the rancor info from www.swgbioengineer.com
most PvE are not a wide spread damage range they are consistant with thier attacks a Rancor does infact have 605-615 damage range, the only serious effect this will apply to is PvP when being attacked by say a pikeman or Swordsman.
48-240 dmg
But the point to the damage mitigation was for PvE as you said, therefore if what you equations are saying are to be true
(( MAX-MIN ) - mitigation) + MIN = New Maximum damage
Would be compleatly useless to what they are trying to achieve, and on the flip side what I thought mitigation was going to be was way overpowered for us
Ah... so this is the values on a Bio-engineered Rancor? That might be the case right there. It may be that player-owned creatures are a little better off damage-range wise than their wild cousins.
But... I will take this to the Devs and (respectfully) challenge their intent with this information. I'll peruse swgbioengineer.com to arm myself with more than just one example and see what they have to say.
What I told you about the "intent" of this change was exactly what was relayed to us,... however, if there was "something else" behind it we'll find out. It could also just be that the Devs are mistaken in what they believed the damage ranges of higher end mobs were. If that is the case, I bet we could convince them to make a minor adjustment on the Mitigation and have it reduce the Minimum number leaving the higher number there. That would effectively reduce the average damage too.
It's Thanksgiving weekend, so I'm not going to expect them to give a response immediately, but when they do I'll let you know asap.
From Warcry.com
Gnarled Rancor: 490-500
Voritor Lizard : 210-220
Greater Desert Womp Rat : 210-220
Blood-Stained Merek : 340-350
Rock Beetle : 140-150
Hope that helps out