Fencer Archive
Thread: The Future of Fencer: Your thoughts?
Important: Before you reply to this thread, please read all of this initial post.
By now everyone should be aware of the combat re-balancing that is currently underway. If not please follow the link to Thunderheart'sDevelopment thread in my "Latest status of Fencer Issues" post before going further. You'll want to know what's going on before replying.
The creature re-balancing phase has already reached the live servers, and except for some tweaking is in place. Part of the HAM re-balancing (the new way the Developers wish HAM costs to work and regenerate) made a short appearance on Test Center. It was recalled to make adjustments, but we got a good look at the basics. The remaining two phases of re-balancing will be related to our weapons and certification, and to our profession (skills and modifiers) itself.
The Developers are interested in knowing our ideas on a few things related to these, so I am here to collect your ideas.
*** WAIT! ***
Don't click that reply button just yet. 
This is certain to be a very lengthy thread, and I am interested in everyone's opinions and insights. However, I can't sift through endless non-punctuated run-on sentences where a point is never made. I'll go insane! (It doesn't help that I'm 2/3rds of the way there.) So I'd like everyone to at least read the following guidelines to make collecting this data easier.
1. Take your time with this. Think it over. You don't have to be one of the first persons to reply for me to read your post. I promise to read every single one. Perhaps even jot down some notes to yourself about what is truly important to you in the Fencer profession and its future. When you have organized your thoughts a bit, then commit it to type.
2. I don't really care about spelling or capitalization as long as I can eventually decipher the word in less than 30 seconds or so. 
However, please consider using some punctuation. I'm mainly referring to our friend the period (.) I tend to loose track of the point of a sentence (or sentences) if it runs on for more than 100 words without a break of some kind. I can even follow limited 13wt-d00d-5p34k as long as you don't over do it.
3. It you change subjects or topics, hit the return key, change colors,give me a HR, or otherwise make it clear. It helps me to follow your thoughts and categorize your information.
4. Don't write a novel if a paragraph will due. Remember this thread will likely grow to become very large, so have some mercy on me. Express yourself as briefly as you can to get the basic point across. If I need more, or don't follow what you are saying, I'll ask you to clarify or further expand upon the issue.
5. It really helps if you can make a short, very "to the point" sentence that introduces each point first. Then after it you can go into an explanation of that point. I'll be bouncing back and forth through these by the dozen to categorize and re-read many of them, and this greatly speeds up that process.
6. Lastly... NO FLAMING! If you disagree with something another person wortoe, then just state your opinion. When I read it and see that yours differs, it becomes very obvious you disagree. There is no need to quote each line of someone else's post in this particular thread, and rip each word apart and cross analyze it.Let your opinion and post stand on its own two legs.
Some ideas of what we are really looking for are some things like:
- What should be special or unique about Fencers that set them apart from the other 3 melee professions?
- What should be the "basic flavor" of Fencer special attacks?
- What kind or style of weapons would you like to see Fencers use?
- Do you have ideas for how future certifications should be spread out?
- What kind of group role should a Fencer typically serve?
- What kind of battlefield (mass PvP) role should a Fencer hold?
- What kind of HAM cost dispersal should a Fencer's weapon typically have?
- What kind of utilities would you like to see Fencer's have?
This is by no means an exhaustive list, but should put you on the right track. I'd like to see some significant feedback on this by this Friday (Jan 2, 2004) if at all possible. The list can grow after that point (in fact I hope it does), and I will keep reading it and taking the information in it, but I want to be prepared to put together some initial basics for the Developers by the end of that weekend.
Ok... I can see your eye twitching... your mouse pointer hovering over the reply button... a cramp already forming in your index finger... sweat dripping from your brow in restraint. You can reply now.
Message Edited by Raphayl on 12-28-2003 08:16 PM
I got this idea from a fellow pikeMan, but it is not a pikeMan only thing, so I thought I might post it here, as I would love to see this ability in the Fencer too.
The non combat Fencer move
This is a move that says "I am a Fencer, do not mess with me!" and it would involve shaking and spinning around, very flashy and really letting people you are around and not to be taken lightly on. I am thinkin perhaps something involving a show of different postures, doing some sort of Kata if you know what I mean.. Something to start of a battle with, or end it by...
Deathblow Fencer Special Animation
How bout a short animation with the Deathblow command? I would love to see a Fencer pick up his incapacitated victimand slice off a nose or somethingas a trophy. Again, this would mean a semi-non-combat movement.
Fencer Shadowmovement
This combat movement could be used as a combination of burst run and knockdown as a way to get them kiters. Using this move would cost some HAMs as always, might be on a 5 minute time, but would result in the Fencer going into a shadowform, movingwith increased defensesmaking himvery hardto hit for a say 50 mrange.In order to reach the opponent his speed could be calculated as 10% faster than whatever the targets speed is.
anyways, just some thoughts I had 
So, here goes my thoughts:
- What should be special or unique about Fencers that set them apart from the other 3 melee professions?
Their artistic movements, almost like a dance should be their flavour. They should be know as the bladedancers. Style, garce and ruthless efficiency.
- What should be the "basic flavor" of Fencer special attacks?
Quick. Qick and elegant. His moves are swift, the Blades are fast, the Feets continuously working.The Fencer should be the "Juggler" of SWG, delaying opponents with delay moves, Knockdowns and Posture changes, to keep em under control. More focussed on one opponent than a group.
- What kind or style of weapons would you like to see Fencers use?
In my Opinion the Fencer should Focus on one-handed Bladed weapons. Be it a Knife, be it a sword, be it a saber.... Dosent matter as long as it is one-handed and has a blade.
- Do you have ideas for how future certifications should be spread out?
There should be3 different basic types of weapons:
-Knifes (Footwork): Fast, but low damage. Low HAM costs
-Swords (Finesse): Moderate damage, fast speed, moderate HAM costs
-Sabers (Techniques): High damage, moderate speed, High action costs
In addition to that there should be a special sword of Bladed weapon unique to the Master Title.
- What kind of group role should a Fencer typically serve?
Tank. Plain and simple. Dealing only moderate to low Damage, but evading incoming attacks.
- What kind of battlefield (mass PvP) role should a Fencer hold?
Flanker, Shock Trooper or CQB
- What kind of HAM cost dispersal should a Fencer's weapon typically have?
Low Health, High Action, Moderate Mind
- What kind of utilities would you like to see Fencer's have?
Just a wide array of Status effects, to enhance the juggling role and character.
Thanx
Dogg
Raphayl wrote:
6. Lastly... NO FLAMING! If you disagree with something another person wortoe, then just state your opinion. When I read it and see that yours differs, it becomes very obvious you disagree. There is no need to quote each line of someone else's post in this particular thread, and rip each word apart and cross analyze it.Let your opinion and post stand on its own two legs.
That's such a stupid **edit**IN rule! /sarcasm off
I think fencer weapons should definately have ham cost reduced, albeit only the multiplier if the dev's lazy to tweak the current weapons and rebalace them. Fencer moves cost way to much Ham for their damage output. Without buffs, i can easily kill myself before others can kill me.
Ham cost should focus a little more on action. We are using our arms to perform the attacks afterall. As in, each time we swing, we tire ourselves out, unlike teras kasi, who might break a knuckle or two punching a rancor whose skin's tougher than steel.
As for weapons, I'm not going to ask for AP2 weapons simply because I personally believe that it would be unbalancing for the profession. We can't have speed AND power and speed suffices for me right now. However, what i would like to see is variety because we specialize in finesse over power. In order to have finesse and technique, we need to have multiple damage types to choose from in order to exploit the enemy's vulnerability.
I like the current idea of a fencer being a defensive class. We are currently the best pureclass tank available. This should stay the way it is, as we are nimble on our foot.
I believe the fencer class should have the highest accuracy out of all the melee classes because that is what we give up power for, the finesse.
- What should be special or unique about Fencers that set them apart from the other 3 melee professions?
- Our ability to Tank, that includes all forms of damages. The fencer as i see it, is the damage absorber. this includes higher toughness, lower ham cost, possibly attacks that add a taunt element to the special.
- What should be the "basic flavor" of Fencer special attacks?
- To keep in line with this theme, i would say stat effects. More then simpley blind. I would like to see specials that for a limited time lowers either the pools or secondaries of the target. Creating them to regenerate less, or spend more ham to use a special, I would like to see stun 2 in the trees as well. Perhaps a unique fencing only kind of stat effect.
- What kind or style of weapons would you like to see Fencers use?
- A wide aray of weapon types. As the main tank of the game, the fencer should be able to basicly pick up and use just about any type of damage weapon and have that in their arsenal. Although the fencer does not deal the damage as others will, they will tank well, and they will be able to compensate for poor damage with utility. One of those utility is picking weapons for any situation.
- Do you have ideas for how future certifications should be spread out?
- I think thunderheard was tap dead center with his remarks about this. The certifications should be throughout the entire tree. Ofcourse a deadly weapon certificate should be awarded to master. A weapon that is good enough to sway someone from dabbling to mastering.
- What kind of group role should a Fencer typically serve?
- The damage absorber. The gorup would idealy want the fencer to hold aggro, if this game is in fact going the EQ route, then they need a main tank, and a main assist. The fencer fills this job better then any other profession.
- What kind of battlefield (mass PvP) role should a Fencer hold?
- The set up man/women. They might kill as fast, but they will disable any target with their incredible stat effects, that makes the jobs of others easier, as well as gives the fencer the oprotunity to take them out as well.
- What kind of HAM cost dispersal should a Fencer's weapon typically have?
- As the main tank, they need to be able to conserve as much HAM as possible. I would say that the fencers HAM exspense should be one of the lowest in the game.
- What kind of utilities would you like to see Fencer's have?
Stun2 ( this attack is an aoe stun)
Blind2 ( this attack is an aoe blind )
dizzy2 ( this attack is an aoe dizzy)
Scatter hit (3 pool damage, plus a taunt)
Scatter hit2 ( 3 pool damage, plus a taunt, plus this is aoe)
at the very least 50-60 toughness
New special (insert name) { lowers strength, quickness, focuss on the target by 500 for 1 minute} "moderate ham exspense, higher then normal, but still very affordable"
New special (insert name) { lowers constitution, stamina, willpower by 500 for 1 minute } "same HAM exspense as the previous one"
New special (insert name) { a 2x mulitplier damage hit, if SoE keeps the mulitplier system, plus instead of causing wounds, lowers the aucutal pool by 1/2 damage for 30 seconds}
**note** this special would attack the health pool as we are the melee class that is designed to combat this HAM pool. It would not cause perminate wounds, but it will lower their pools, think of this as a debuffer.
- Special and Unique:
we should be the fast hitters as we already are. perhaps raise the cap on the other meleers. we should be the undisputed masters of status effects.
- Basic flavor:
same as it is now, i suppose.
- Weapons:
please make our highest damaging weapon a sword. please. switch the gaffi and curved images and titles, and i'm a happy man. i would also like to see some new damage types. nothing fancy, really, just something new.
- Certs:
don't know, don't care. i'm a master to the end. i'll find a way to use whatever weapon i have if i must.
- Group/PvE Role:
i'm now the tank. i can stand in the midst of several baddies while my ranged friends beat on them with pistols. i LOVE this role. i dodge most of the attacks, and my armor makes a big difference. i'm not invincible, but my guildmates think i'm worthwhile. i think.
- PvP Role:
Fencers should be melee asassins. we're the duelists. we can't take out several players, but if we can single one out, we should have the capability to win most of the time with the right tactics.
- HAM:
costs should be lower. we can't dish out the damage others do, but our HAM is only slightly lower. Devs would need to determine balancing on this one.
- Utilities:
no opinion. i like how we are, i have very very few complaints. my suggestions are probably best taken with little regard.
Thanks Raphayl. sorry i can't be more helpful. i like us as we are.
Fencers should be the hardest to hit.
What should be the "basic flavor" of Fencer special attacks?
What kind or style of weapons would you like to see Fencers use?
- I would like to see a variety of one handed weapons, such as axes, swords, and maces. Axes would hit harder but slower, swords in the middle, and knives fast. Weapons that give defensive bonuses would be nice.
Do you have ideas for how future certifications should be spread out?
- Spread. That is the only workable way to do this.
What kind of group role should a Fencer typically serve?
- Definitely a tank
- Good at claiming the aggro away from non-tanks. This should get better as level advances (unlike Taunt, which is rarely effective).
- Better at hobbling attacks, like ones which SLOW a target. (That is to say, forces a target to walk.)
- Better at stopping a moving target
-
What kind of battlefield (mass PvP) role should a Fencer hold?
- Accuracy damagers. Blind is a good example. Something to slow down a gun's rate of fire. Something to prevent the use of specials. Something to increase a target's HAM costs.
What kind of HAM cost dispersal should a Fencer's weapon typically have?
- Mostly action. Heavier weapons should hit health harder.
What kind of utilities would you like to see Fencer's have?
- A wider range of affects. Things to: reduce accuracy (like blind), slow the target's rate of fire, increase their HAM costs, slow their movement, disrupt their default targeting, force aggro onto themselves, reduce their own damage to up their own defences with a low HAM hit (and thus take the aggro for even longer).
When I think of what a Fencer should be, I think of the movie Equilibrium. Yeah, there were no swords in it except for the end. But the way he moved in hand to hand combat is what sticks in my mind. He could take on half a dozen guys without taking a hit. Now, none of his hits were a knockout blows, but he was fast and accurate. So yeah, finesse and speed.
We might not do the same damage as fast as other classes but we should be able to last longer to eventually dish out the same damage. Dunno if that makes sense.
I feel the Fencer would make a WONDERFUL crowd control class. Being fast and precise with the blade (or whatever weapon) he can strike in many locations with superb accuracy. Ok, enough of the blurb... here is what I mean:
-Adding elements of taunting, intimidation, "warning shot", stun and possibly even a "warcry"-ish kind (with say a 5 second delay) to some attacks. Since we deal the less damage (which is fine by me) we should have more of a crowd control aspect. Being the "state-deliverer" would be an incredible asset. These abilities could be tied into our current styles as "procs".
-Please make all the weapons bladed... either that or change our titles to something other than Blade* (watching A New Hope again, the gaffi stick is a friggin polearm!) I love some of the ideas in the past for fencing style weapons. This is a hi-tech galaxy, so adding different types of damage to our weapons besides kinetic is feasible in this science-fantasy setting.
-I personally would love to see the Fencer style stay true to the name. (GO SWASHBUCKLERS!) By this, I mean Western Fencing. To me, Easter Fencing is more for Hvy Swordsman.
-Something that could set Fencers apart from the other 3 (though come to think of it, this could benefitall melee), add a mini-burst run which lasts for 10 secondswith a seperatetimer that stacks withthe current burst runto allow us to catch pesky kiters.
-Group role/Battlefield role: A harrasser and crowd control tank.
-As to the location of certs... just have them make sense. Currently a curved sword and a Rykk blade are comparable... yet the curved is a much lower cert. than the Rykk blade and the Gaffi is better than both of those with the same cert as the curved sword.
It seems everyone is mentioning an inability to hit Fencers and I agree.
I also think that an addition to style/finesse would be great. Different style modeswould be cool to see.. Maybe new commands like /fencestyle1, /fencestyle2, etc... Where each one would be a familiar fencing style that's true to what we've seen in real life. /fencestyle1, for example, could be the traditional fencing style we've all seen before... Where the fencer would use a light weapon, like a rapier, holding the weapon forward with one hand and holding hisother armextended back and curled up. Something like /fencestyle2 would be more like the samurai use of the sword. Things like this would look cool and have different HAM costs, damage, and dodge/block ability.
Also, I've noticed that Intimidate (a Brawler skill, I know, but maybe it should have a different effect if you're an actual "Fencer"?) causes no visible action - On onlooker would see you just fighting and suddenly there's the Mind cost number pop up with "+Intimidated+" showing up over the target. What's so intimidating about that? Do something that LOOKS intimidating! A spin, a flip, a very deadly-looking swing at a head or neck, maybe accompanied by a shout. It doesn't have to connect (and probably shouldn't)... but make it look like someone ALMOST lost their head! Scary!
Another nice addition would be a /startpractice ability that's similiar to a Dancer's /startdance, with/flourish. Maybe it would even have some Mind healing for onlookers (and a small experience point gain for the Fencer). It would be a sight to see... a group of Fencers doing standard martial arts-like practice moves in synch. Hut! Hut! HAIYAA!!
And, yes, more weapons. I played the Star Wars roleplaying "board" game and was basically a pirate who used a cutlass. I was suprised when I didn't see any cutlasses orrapiers or the like in SWG. Smaller swords should hit a lot and fast, but maybe not do as much damage and have minimal HAM cost.
I think of the brawler tree as a spectrum moving from personal combat to military combat. I think of TKA and Fencer more as personal forms of combat, intended for encounters ranging from formal duels to backalley streetfights. This is in contrast to the armor-defeating heavy battlefield weaponry of the heavy swordsman, or the ceremonial and practical guardsman role of the pikeman.
(I think this justifies a strong melee presence in Star Wars. In our world, guns made old armor obsolete, but in Star Wars, some vehicles, creatures, and personnel are so heavily armored that melee tactics found their way back into the evolution of combat.)
I see the TKA as more of a traditional martial artist, the fencer as more of a specialized form of streetfighter. The fencer should excel in urban locations against humanoid opponents. Perhaps some related bonuses there-- but on the other hand, we are already very strong against NPC opponents.
I would like to see a "charge/rush" ability-- maybe a cross between berserk, burst run, and lunge. It wouldn't be limited to a single move like lunge, or a longer duration state with limited use like burstrun, but you would use it in combat against a target.
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What kind or style of weapons would you like to see Fencers use?
Obviously, people would like to see a fast sword design like a rapier. I would like to get away from the image of the modern sport fencer with the very light foil, but these light sporting versions are all based on heavier, but still dangerously quick weapons that were in common use, and were distinctly different from battlefield weapons. The fencer weapons are light weapons that people would carry all the time-- ceremonial and streetfighting weapons. The stun baton strikes me as a police/security weapon-- that's a form of urban fighting. I think there should be plenty more cultural weapons like the Gaffi and Ryyk. The Rodians had gladiator games-- what weapons did they use? The EU is full of weapons that have yet to be seen here.
One quick fix-- what if they gave the Nyax sword better stats, comparable to a Gaffi, made it certified at Novice Fencer or higher. They could make a non-DOT version drop frequently, a DOT version as rare as it is now. Later on down the line they could upgrade the design.
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What kind of group role should a Fencer typically serve?
The tank. Holding opponents at bay. I think "crowd control" may be the wrong concept here, from a design standpoint, I think Pikemen should actually be the crowd controllers (think the Emperor's elite guards with their lances).
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What kind of battlefield (mass PvP) role should a Fencer hold?
I don't know that there should be a battlefield role per se. I've always thought of the fencer as someone who runs in the same circles as smugglers and bounty hunters. Not a conventional military role, but more suited to special covert situations. In an actual battle I think fencers should rely on their own defenses and skills to hold their own, or relying on the diversity of their template: fencer/ranged, fencer/CH, fencer/healer. Not that I think fencers can't do well in battle. I think they should, especially as they get close to master, just as a street-smart fighter like Han Solo was an asset to the Rebel army. But I think incorporating a special role for it's own sake may be pushing credibility.
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What should be special or unique about Fencers that set them apart from the other 3 melee professions?
I think of the brawler tree as a spectrum moving from personal combat to military combat. I think of TKA and Fencer more as personal forms of combat, intended for encounters ranging from formal duels to backalley streetfights. This is in contrast to the armor-defeating heavy battlefield weaponry of the heavy swordsman, or the ceremonial and practical guardsman role of the pikeman. (I think this justifies a strong melee presence in Star Wars. In our world, guns made old armor obsolete, but in Star Wars, some vehicles, creatures, and personnel are so heavily armored that melee tactics found their way back into the evolution of combat.) I see the TKA as more of a traditional martial artist, the fencer as more of a specialized form of streetfighter. The fencer should excel in urban locations against humanoid opponents. Perhaps some related bonuses there-- but on the other hand, we are already very strong against NPC opponents. I would like to see a "charge/rush" ability-- maybe a cross between berserk, burst run, and lunge. It wouldn't be limited to a single move like lunge, or a longer duration state with limited use like burstrun, but you would use it in combat against a target.
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What kind or style of weapons would you like to see Fencers use? Obviously, people would like to see a fast sword design like a rapier. I would like to get away from the image of the modern sport fencer with the very light foil, but these light sporting versions are all based on heavier, but still dangerously quick weapons that were in common use, and were distinctly different from battlefield weapons. The fencer weapons are light weapons that people would carry all the time-- ceremonial and streetfighting weapons. The stun baton strikes me as a police/security weapon-- that's a form of urban fighting. I think there should be plenty more cultural weapons like the Gaffi and Ryyk. The Rodians had gladiator games-- what weapons did they use? The EU is full of weapons that have yet to be seen here. One quick fix-- what if they gave the Nyax sword better stats, comparable to a Gaffi, made it certified at Novice Fencer or higher. They could make a non-DOT version drop frequently, a DOT version as rare as it is now. Later on down the line they could upgrade the design.
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What kind of group role should a Fencer typically serve? The tank. Holding opponents at bay. I think "crowd control" may be the wrong concept here, from a design standpoint, I think Pikemen should actually be the crowd controllers (think the Emperor's elite guards with their lances).
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What kind of battlefield (mass PvP) role should a Fencer hold?
I don't know that there should be a battlefield role per se. I've always thought of the fencer as someone who runs in the same circles as smugglers and bounty hunters. Not a conventional military role, but more suited to special covert situations. In an actual battle I think fencers should rely on their own defenses and skills to hold their own, or relying on the diversity of their template: fencer/ranged, fencer/CH, fencer/healer. Not that I think fencers can't do well in battle. I think they should, especially as they get close to master, just as a street-smart fighter like Han Solo was an asset to the Rebel army. But I think incorporating a special role for it's own sake may be pushing credibility.