Entertainer Archive
Thread: Mind Damage, Entertainers in Battle a solution? Comments needed!
First, let me say thatI understand that mind damage is supposed to be a hinderance. I do not support mind damage being instantly healable by a doctor. This destroys the ability of riflemen to target a vulnerable pool, and opens a BIG can of worms for doctors or medics healing themselves - mind pool damage is supposed to be their weakness, as it hinders their medical abilities.
Second, I do not like the lack of incorporation with the combat classes that Entertainers currently have. I know many of you only want to perform in cantinas. Rest assured, I'm not trying to liberate everyone from a cantina forever. You'd still be putting on shows to heal the battle weary and socialize with the folks coming in for a show.
Third, some basics, so everyone's using the same terminology during the ensuing discussion: Damage is the white space in a HAM bar, gained every time an enemy strikes you in combat. Wounds are the BLACK space in a HAM bar, sometimes gained when struck, and usually gained when cloned. Fatigue (short for Battle Fatigue) is the number shown in the box on your character sheet, and is gained when killed, incapacitated, and over time as a character is repeatedly healed from battle.
Fourth, I recognize that many (foolish) combatants do not believe that Entertainers earn their keep, as they undergo no risks related to the GCW. I wish to provide a counter to this false concept - by giving entertainers a reason to be out of the cantinas.
System Proposal - Mind Damage Healing System
Intent:
This system is intended to incorporate the entertainer-based classes with the combat classes, and give them an additional role in the GCW. It is intended to help balance (and to some extent offset) theuber-effectiveness of mind damage in PvP.
Details:
-
Entertainers would get the ability toregenerate mind damage without needing to be in a cantina or campsite.Wounds would still require a camp or cantina to be healed. Fatigue would still require a cantina to be healed. (Please re-read the basic terminology, if you do not understand this.)
A bonus to this skill might be granted as part of the elite classes.This new ability could located be at Entertainment Healing III or IV, or even at Master Entertainer or higher in the Entertainer-based elite classes, as needed for balance and to prevent dabblers from simply picking up a skill or two and cheapening the Entertainer-based classes further. -
This is not a doctor/medic style "instant heal" or "stim". This is a slower regenerative effect, but one which is notably faster than the normal unassisted healing rate. A target taking mind pool damage from a rifleman would stillget smoked- thisis not intended to keep a member of your group alive if they continue to take significant damage to the mind pool while it is used. It could be used to offset the self-inflicted mind pool damage of special attacks, however, just as doctor stims can. -
This ability would use the entertainer's action pool, just as dances and songs do. The rate of healing and action drain would need to be determined via balance testing. Too large of a healing effect, and it prevents riflemen from being effective. Too slow a healing effect, and it might as well not exist at all. Too much of a drain, and entertainers won't use the ability. Too little of a drain, and it ruins mind damage. -
This ability represents the Entertainer's ability to inspire others, raise their spirits, and encourage them.It is an activated, skill-basedheal-over-timefor group members ONLY. It might be an ongoing ability that drains the entertainer while providing a heal to the group, or a one-time cost to the entertainer that heals the group. The form this ability takes in the final version is mostly up to Entertainers and the developers. How should this initial draft be altered to fit Entertainers better?
Explanation:
Many armies throughout earth's real history have marched off to war with music or song. Drums have been used both as signalling devices and to inspire the troops. Horns, likewise. Songs of war, battles and the glories of fighting nobly are well known in many cultures. ("When Johnny Comes Marching Home", for a well-known American example of a war-related song.)
Currently, mind damage in a PvP or PvE battle is overwhelmingly powerful. It can't be healed, and therefore a hit or two to the mind pool effectively ends the battle for the victim. The PvP Damage Reduction Nerf was intended to make battles last longer, but it left a loophole that this system seeks to close.
Doctors and medics healing the health and action pools are offsetting damage to these pools. Their buffs are an extension of the damage which can be taken. Entertainer mind buffs, which are designed to counter mind damage, are only an extension and not an offset. There is currently no offset for mind damage, and the proposed system is intended to provide this damage offset.
I am interested in hearing your opinions. I do not wish to see a doctor or medic mind-stimming patients - I feel that is only opening a very large can of worms, and cheapens the Entertainer profession for all. I do not wish to see this replacing entertainer mind-buffs, either - this is meant to be an addition to those, not a replacement for them. I would like to see entertainer-based characters providing more support for those engaged in ongoing battles via their earned class abilities. (Yes, I know some of you took up Marksman or Brawler. I noticed that one of you beat the tar out of an idiot the other day, and posted this to the forums. I'm trying tosuggesta system that gives Entertainersa contribution to make in an ongoing, happening-right-now type of battle.)
Artisans all do this via their products (used in battle). Medics do it via their skills (used in battle). Scouts do it with abilities (terrain negotiation andtrapsasexamples).I doubt anyone would argue that Brawlers and Marksmen aren't contributing in a battle. Entertainers onlycontribute with theirprofession after a battle has already ended and the victor has already been declared. (If healing a GCW participant in a cantina is going to give you a TEF, why pretend that Entertainers aren't just as involved in the battle as everyone ELSE?)
By allowing entertainers to heal mind damage in an ongoing battle, a battle can be prolonged.Given a suitable spot to which a character can fall back or retreat to be healed by an entertainer when initially wounded, a battle can be lengthened, and be made less of a twitch-fest. The PvP Damage Nerf clearly demonstrates this intent on the behalf of the developers, but leaves a gaping hole in the form of unhealable mind damage.
Yes, an Entertainer can stillaccomplish this healingin a cantina or campsite.
But what about when siegeing a factional fortress in the wilderness for the good of the GCW? What about wheninvading the Drall caverns on Corellia? Entertainers are the onlypure professionwhich does not currently contribute -during- the battle. (Please don't misundertsand me. I'm not saying Entertainers don't have a useful role to fill, only that I would like to see an expansion of that role.)
Allowing an entertainer some means to heal mind damage regardless of venue would give all entertainers something to contribute to the battle, rather than after the battle. I do not think this skeletal system is completeor whole, in and of itself. I think it needs significant input from Entertainers to be made viable.
I would like your thoughts on this subject. What are they?
Nameless,
I like that idea! As a Doc/CM it's incredibly frustrating to see party members go down due to mind incap and not be able to do anything about it. Your proposal seems to be the best, and most balancing one I've seen so far.
Bring the drums to war! Hmm .... maybe items with modifies to make the regen faster ...
I like it!
Hmm. I don't agree. The Devs have stated time and time again that the Entertainer profession is NOT intended to be a Bard class; we are not combat support.
And it is not our job to rally and motivate troops, that ability belongs to the... Squad Leader. Give them the ability to increase mind damage regen rate or something.
Kae
I'm also sort of wondering about the entertainer/doctors--will they have too great an advantage? Or would you not be able to watch/listen to yourself while in the field?
Mori-Mori wrote:
Good ideas. I also agree that this might be better suited for a squad leader, though. Perhaps allowing entertainers to heal mind damage in the field ONLY when grouped under a SL?
I'm also sort of wondering about the entertainer/doctors--will they have too great an advantage? Or would you not be able to watch/listen to yourself while in the field?
You could, but the problem with doing so under this system works like this:
Assume you're a Master Doctor, Master Musician. You're out healing your group, and take a few mind hits. You now need to stop healing your group in order to listen to yourself (or whatever). The problem is that your group isn't going to get any heals while you're using this ability. Sure, you'll also heal their mind wounds, but your own won't recover quickly enough for you to be a stim-machine forever.
Current proposals by the doctors highlight that they feel they should be given control of mind damage. I think that's silly. A class already exists to buff the mind, and to heal mind wounds. Doctors have health and action, why should they also get mind as well? Further, a doctor who can stim mind wounds can stim himself, and becomes a super-healing machine.
Guys, I'm not kidding. The doctors are trying to encroach on what should be your province, by rights. Don't believe me? Take a look:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Development&message.id=469345
I urge you to give this some thought, and to ask yourself if you really want doctors taking the ability to heal mind wounds. Many people already feel you have nothing to offer to a combat group except battle fatigue relief. I disagree, and I would like to see additions to this role for you as well. No one is saying you HAVE To go fight, but some of you clearly want the ability to contribute to a fight as Entertainers, and I think you should have it.
Kaelya wrote:
Hmm. I don't agree. The Devs have stated time and time again that the Entertainer profession is NOT intended to be a Bard class; we are not combat support.
And it is not our job to rally and motivate troops, that ability belongs to the... Squad Leader. Give them the ability to increase mind damage regen rate or something.
They have an ability to rally the troops. Where this differs is in theexecution. A Squad Leader can do so in an instant at their own expense,where an Entertainer would do so in a smaller contribution over time. A squad leader may also be getting the ability to divide wounds among the group in a fashion similar to a Zabrak's "equalize" ability- spreading out the mind wounds to all members of the groups, which an Entertainer could then regenerate faster.
This is not a replacement for ANY class ability that I am aware of. It is designed to give Entertainers a synergistic role in combat derived from their basic profession. They are currently the only class that does NOT have a role to contribute during a fight. (Even Artisans contribute, via their armor, shield generators, droids, pets (BE), guns, bladesandpowerups.)
The Devs have stated a lot of things about the game, but that doesn't make what they've said either right, or the final word.
Need examples?
Holo has claimed to have no idea why pistols are more popular than other forms of attack. Holo has stated that melee characters should not expect to be balanced against ranged characters. (Don't bring a knife to a gunfight, I believe was his quote.) Neither of theseis a contribution to proper game balance as it should exist in SWG.
In addition, neither of these is conducive to the belief that the developers have a clear and solid understanding of their product's final evolution. I say that if we are going to have an effect on the proper balance of the gaem, it is our responsibility, our duty, to speak up and let them know when they are at risk of making a mistake.
Doctors should not have mind stims. The mind is clearly intended to be the forte of the Entertainer.
Doctors shouldn't be able to heal mind, yet SOMEONE should be able to. Entertainers are the logical choice, but there needs to be some way to prevent them from being HA and M healers at the same time. That's why I'd like to see entertainers have the ability only while grouped under a squad leader. You can't be an advanced entertainer, a medic, AND a squad leader.
Mori-Mori wrote:
I don't think lack of healing while the doctor dances for himself is an issue--in my limited experience, at least half of advanced players have medical skills and can easily fill in for a dancin' doctor.
Doctors shouldn't be able to heal mind, yet SOMEONE should be able to. Entertainers are the logical choice, but there needs to be some way to prevent them from being HA and M healers at the same time. That's why I'd like to see entertainers have the ability only while grouped under a squad leader. You can't be an advanced entertainer, a medic, AND a squad leader.
Just make it so the person doing the mind-regen isn't affected by it. After all - they're too busy concentrating on everyone else to help themselves. Now no doctor or medic can regen his own mind to offset healing useage, and you still have a tangible benefit for entertainers to use during a fight, by helping the doctor. (Haven't entertainers visited the sick-tents and hospitals during battles and wars to raise the spirits of the wounded? Bet it wasn'tmuch fun for the entertainers...)
But if you want a more complicated idea...
I think that itdepends on where it's placed in the entertainer-based classtrees and that depends on a balance pass being made. If it's placed high enough (fourth tier in elite entertainer classes?) or spread out thinkly enough (say, adds1 mind regen per-tick for every box in the entire elite classwithfour at noviceandten atMaster?) it'll mean a doctor would have to decide to make a big tradeoff in order to heal his own mind damage.
Let's look at what I mean.
Number of free skill points, by class:
Pure Master Doctor: 110.
Pure Combat Medic: 82.
Pure Medic: 173
Cost to take a singleentertainer tree all the way to elite and master it: 106. (105 if they skip master and spreadmind healingout across tier IV. I think they should spread it outover the entire class, and spread it out thinly, with increases being top heavy, not bottom heavy.)
Doing it this waymeans a Master Doctor couldn't do anything but heal, if he wanted to go all the way up the Entertainer tree and gain the full amount of mind damage regeneration - each box will cost him some combat ability, or the ability to survey for resources, or some other useful skill. (And you can't heal action or health while healing mind, remember, so only one thing at a time...)
A Master Combat Medic wouldn't even be able to get there, or would have to take a lopsided elite class skill-tree to get afew boxesand be a gimpy mind regenerator... and even then, these two would have no skill with a gun or melee combat left (or only a little, in the case of the combat medic). (And you still can't heal action orhealth while healing mind...)
Only a Medic (basic class) and Entertainer combination leaves any room forpost-marksman or post-brawler combat skills...and the cost leaves them only enough to go up thetree to oneelite class. (And only become 2/2/0/0 in it) They'd get a bitfurther upif they gave up the ranged support abilities, or went brawler... but they sure wouldn't be mastering any advanced combat classes. (And you STILL can't heal health or action while healing mind...)
You can check my calculations by using the character builder at Allakhazam's.
http://swg.allakhazam.com/db/charbuild.html
So, in essence, you're right. With this system, or one similar, Doctorscould gocompletely (or nearly) non combat and be able to slowly regenerate mind damage, while temporarily giving up their other healing abilities. This sort of skill tradeoff is what the skill-based system is supposed to encourage and support.
I understand that many people have limited medic skills. However, the ability toregenerate the mind over time is not going to keep you (or your group)alive while you're constantly under fire - even if your group can hold off the rest of the enemy with a few self-applied lower-level stims while you do it. Not to mention, if they're healing themselves, they're not fighting back, and they're not doing as much damage to the enemy, who can fire back with fewer interruptions!
It just wouldn't make sense for a doctor to take an elite entertainer class just to heal mind damage, unless they wanted to be a switch-healer and nothing else.
Now, the OTHER shoe drops:
If you're regenerating even as much as 60 mind damage every five seconds, a single rifle shot would undo all of that healing and more - you're just putting off the inevitable for a very short time.Not to mention, you're giving up the ability to use ressurection packs, wound packs, and doctor-grade stims in order to do it.
How many would take the whole class, knowing that it's not going to save a guy who lets himself continue to get pounded, and would also keep them from using a weapon skillfully in self defense, and would keep them from using the rest of their medical abilities while they do it?
Even with two or threedoctors dancing their buns off and regenerating the group, you're still not keeping someone alive, unless they get out of range or out of the line of fire. You'reare, however,forcing a slower pace to the combat, and preventing mind damage from being a two-hit combat ender.
Slower is good in an RPG - this is not a Quake III twitchfest.
...or at least it's not supposed to be.
By keeping the abilityto a regenerative effect and not a stim-type bulk-instant-heal, you force people to get out of range, out of line-of-sight, and out of combat... but you don't force them to choose between setting up a camp, running to a cantina, orbeing incapacitated while a doctor looks on helplessly. The difference is between falling back to regroup, and giving up entirely to visit a scenic clone tank.
If the stacking regeneration is a problem (and it could be) then cap it to something reasonable - like 60 per tick for each affected player. 60 per tick wouldn't buy you the time to dig yourself a shallow grave, if you stand around to keep getting plunked. Yet two entertainers in a group (dancer and musician, for example) could stack to gain this much healing ability at the master level, and would bring something to the group, from their base profession. Everyone else does.
Why not entertainers?
This seems like a great idea.
Fourthings:
1. Must the entertainer actively play music or dance to use this? Kinda hard to do on the fly. If they don't do this, then what animation do they get? Maybe they could sing (for dancers) or get drums that allow them to play while moving?
2. While I agree with your thinking that this needs to be seperated from medics. I believe doctors shoudl be able to enhance mind stats. This would allow players to more effectively tank. The devs are discussing adding melee tanking bonuses, but all player's biggest weaknesses are in their mind pools. Why prohibit doctors from buffing these stats. These are not heals but rater buffs that raise the maximum.
3. This sounds like your are increasing regeneration greatly, so it would be a buff to the willpower stat. Why not have entertainers running with groups and playing fight songs buff all of the mind stats to some degree?
4. Continuity - There weren't traveling musicians in the Star Wars universe. . . why not simply expand the cantina buffing skills of entertainers. Let them buff the willpower and focus stats when being watched. Also, make it so that players only need to watch for a max of five minutes. Hearing the same song on a loop or watching the same dance for 15 minutes is boring. This also eliminates the problem of getting new animations that don't have the entertainer stand still, and allows the devs to stay true to their commitment of not making entertainers akin to bards found in other games.
bean19 wrote:
2. While I agree with your thinking that this needs to be seperated from medics. I believe doctors shoudl be able to enhance mind stats. This would allow players to more effectively tank. The devs are discussing adding melee tanking bonuses, but all player's biggest weaknesses are in their mind pools. Why prohibit doctors from buffing these stats. These are not heals but rater buffs that raise the maximum.
3. This sounds like your are increasing regeneration greatly, so it would be a buff to the willpower stat. Why not have entertainers running with groups and playing fight songs buff all of the mind stats to some degree?
4. Continuity - There weren't traveling musicians in the Star Wars universe. . . why not simply expand the cantina buffing skills of entertainers. Let them buff the willpower and focus stats when being watched. Also, make it so that players only need to watch for a max of five minutes. Hearing the same song on a loop or watching the same dance for 15 minutes is boring. This also eliminates the problem of getting new animations that don't have the entertainer stand still, and allows the devs to stay true to their commitment of not making entertainers akin to bards found in other games.
Actually, you raise some valid points - and some things which negate the entire system I proposed! Thanks for making me think, durn you! 
2, 3, 4: Entertainers CAN buff the mind pool, and the supporting stats by playing and dancing. There's another thread about it in this forum. However, dancers get half the buffs, and musicians the other half. I think they should get both - regardless of which tree they take.
Yes, an increase to regeneration = buff to willpower stat.
However, these bonuses are currently very short-lived, which adds to the perception that they don't really exist. Lots of people don't even know about them. Instead of adding a seperate system to heal mind damage, allow entertainers to bufff the mind pools of everyone in their group while not in a campsite, and have them last for a LONGER duration than at current.
I'd be happy with that, it'd require less work, and it'd fix the problems of Entertainers being shackled to a cantina.
Lastly, an Entertainer must currently play or dance to grant the bonus. I'd like to see either a variation they can use in combat without being forced to stop and dance, or the duration magnified substantially on the existing system to bring it to a level comperable with Doctor buffs for mind and action stats...
That's all I want for them in this system. (Tipping has another thread.)
I want to see Entertainers even more in demand for a combat group going out to PvP or hunt on Dathomir. I'm easy to please, aren't I? Make the buffs worthwhile (equivalent to doctor buffs in magnitude, and similar but lesser in duration) or give them an ability to use in combat that can be a stopgap measure to support the failing buffs.
Thanks for making me think. 
I enjoyed reading this proposal and ensuing discussion. I think it's a very interesting concept.
However, I think it should be a separate tree off of Novice Entertainer.
SOE has specifically stated they're not interested in making Entertainers into Bards. Personally, I can't fault them for that. It smacks too much of fantasy. I don't think this is a necessary uphill battle though.
I'd love to consider the approach of making a new tree entirely dedicated to allowing Entertainers to be Bards if they so choose.
I'd leave Mind Wound and Battle Fatigue to the Cantina Musician/Dancers, as you recommend.
But I'd move the buffs and the Mind Damage heals over to a new branch. I don't have anything but a terrible "working title", so please don't laugh as I'll just use "Master Engager" going forward
The Master Engager has four lines:
- Entertaining Enhancement- Buffs over time.
- Dancing Proficiency- Combat-themed dance flourish
- Song Proficiency- Musical-themed songs and flourishes
- Entertaining Regeneration- Mind damage heals over time
I feel it is important to keep the true specialist Dancers and Musicans in the Cantinas where they want to be anyway (biggest crowds... before they join dedicated Bands ). But I also think to merit the four skill boxes per line, the Master Engager should have some unique Dance and Song.
Dancing Proficiency would include one flourish per box, different from the ones from Dancing Knowledge I-IV. No Dance techniques effects at all. Leave those to the specialists who train them.
Song Proficiency is just songs per box. No instruments, nor special effects. Yes, I don't think a Master Marcher should know any instruments beyond Mandoviol. Given that you don't technically need anything beyond a Slitherhorn to play anyway, I think the instruments should remain the purview of those who dedicate their life to studying the advanced ones. Trying to lug a Nalargon into the depths of Endor would get a bit tiresome
Going the Master Engager route should cost the same skill points asa Master Musician/Dancer. That doesn't prevent them from taking up combat skills, which is a good thing, considering that the reason they'd want to be a proto-Bard at all is because they like the adventure It also doesn't prevent them from being a Doctor, which also isn't a terrible thing considering that battle healers like being battle healers. As you've said, this happens over time anyway, so there's no potential for Doctors to endlessly loop self-Healing anyway.
It is a potential balance concern in groups, but I think here, the important element is that Buff and Heal effects don't stack. One or 10 Engagers provide only one set Buff and Heal rate for the whole group. But, one could be doing Mind damage while the other Buff while the third is using an alternative combat skill. All buffs and heals only happen when the Entertainer is playing, so the Master Engager basically continues to solo the same way they have been already, just with a boost to Mind healing to lessen downtime.
Not everyone will want to be a Master Engager, just like not everyone wants to be every other profession. But it does allow those who love the Entertainment system a way to usefully combine Entertaining with their love for combat/adventure.
Hehe, can anyone tell I played an EQ Bard? 
Did that for the entire last year I was in EQ. I loved them. They're subtlety ruled! My favorite expression (with an unfortunately unknown author) is: you never knew when a Bard was there, but you sure as heck knew when they left.
Master Engager could be the same thing. EQ Bard plus the awesome SWG Entertainment system would be pure nirvana for me. Maybe a few others too
Nameless, Holo has specifically mentioned your PM in this new thread in Gameplay Discussion:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Development&message.id=476555
I think that shows this is a viable concept. If we all continue to help flesh it out, we may get something for everyone!
A big difference between entertainer buffs and doctor buffs is that doctor buffs are consumables. This is rough on doctors because they need artisan and scout skills to use their class's skills. That our pay super hight rates because the inflated market means that the richest professions that won't need these materials value their time in resource gathering more than credits. You see people selling resrouces, even in great quantities, but doctors need avian meat and reactive gas for buffs. The very specific schematic requires solo gathering.
I think an easy fix that would help the miner and hunter market (such as it is) would be to adjust these doctor schematics to use any meat type and any chemical type in these schematics. Doctors shouldn't have to find rare materials because they are not a crafting class and do not have any resource gathering skills like all of the artisans in the game. Plus, they are more reliant on their crafted items than any other classes in the game. Similar changes should be made to the combat medic skill tree.
That will be the first gripe if master entertainer professions gain better buffs. However, I am ALL for them.
- Put buffs to all mind stats in all of the advanced entertainer lines
- Allow these buffs to function in camps
- Beef them up to doctor level in power and duration
Here is an additional idea. How about giving a new option to request a private dance? This would have a severe entertainer HAM cost but immediately activate the buff. Plus a fee could be imbedded in the request. You request and get a dialogue box saying, Private Dances cost X amount of dollars. X can be supplied by the dancer/musician.
Bam! Mind buffs are solved. Entertainer funds are solved. Everyone rejoices and starts griping about overpowered pets.
Darniaq wrote:
I enjoyed reading this proposal and ensuing discussion. I think it's a very interesting concept.
Thanks!
Darniaq wrote:
SOE has specifically stated they're not interested in making Entertainers into Bards. Personally, I can't fault them for that. It smacks too much of fantasy. I don't think this is a necessary uphill battle though.
Actually, Holo has said that - but I don't think it's really a final answer.
Darniaq wrote:
I'd love to consider the approach of making a new tree entirely dedicated to allowing Entertainers to be Bards if they so choose.
- Entertaining Enhancement- Buffs over time.
- Dancing Proficiency- Combat-themed dance flourish
- Song Proficiency- Musical-themed songs and flourishes
- Entertaining Regeneration- Mind damage heals over time
I'd prefer to see these added to the elite classes, rather than having -another- class created for them. I don't see this as "making Entertainers into bards" because many of them simply -won't- go out and do this sort of thing. They'd have the ability, and that's good, because it gives them something to contribute. But they certainly wouldn't be required to do so.
What I don't see is why this requires a new class, and not a simple addition to the existing class sets. I know they don't want to make this a "fantasy" element, and neither do I. But the truth is that music and song have been an integral part of war since the dawn of time. Witness military parades, as an example.
(...we've just advanced from playing music on polished skulls somewhat.)
Even in Star Wars (See Episode I), ground battles are often fought in precisely organized groups, in a fashion similar to how the British fought during the Revolutionary War here in America.
So where's the drummer boy, or the one playing on the piccolo? Where's the color guards and flag-carriers? Where are the marching songs?
It's not magical music like the EQ Bard - it's an inspirational effect.As any psychologist can tell you, a person who is inspired will accomplish more than they would otherwise be capable of accomplishing.
So let's see some inspiration!
Darniaq wrote:
I feel it is important to keep the true specialist Dancers and Musicans in the Cantinas where they want to be anyway (biggest crowds... before they join dedicated Bands). But I also think to merit the four skill boxes per line, the Master Engager should have some unique Dance and Song.
See, and the second you do, the "true" Entertainers are going to scream. Some have mastered both Dancer AND Musician, and did so because they want to be able to have all those flourishes and musical tunes. Making a new class just means you snatched it away from them, and that's not going to make folks happier.
Darniaq wrote:
That doesn't prevent them from taking up combat skills, which is a good thing, considering that the reason they'd want to be a proto-Bard at all is because they like the adventure. It also doesn't prevent them from being a Doctor, which also isn't a terrible thing considering that battle healers like being battle healers. As you've said, this happens over time anyway, so there's no potential for Doctors to endlessly loop self-Healing anyway.
Right. But why create a seperate class for this, when simply adding these abilities to the Entertainer-based classes would accomplish the same goals? Why make the balancing harder than it has to be? Why make the addition of the new ability harder than it has to be?
Because some people don't want to be "bards"? Well, they don't have to be. There's no law that says they have to go out and heal combat groups of their mind damage just because they like to dance or play music. There's no law that says a smuggler has to sell spice, either. But the ability is there, waiting to be used, and useful to those who want to use it. It'd be a way for those who enjoy the cantina socializing to have a shot at taming the uber-powergamers a bit. If you want RP in your groups, why should you expectto stop entertainers of any stripe at the cantina doors, as they're the ones most often involved in RP!
Darniaq wrote:
It is a potential balance concern in groups, but I think here, the important element is that Buff and Heal effects don't stack. One or 10 Engagers provide only one set Buff and Heal rate for the whole group. But, one could be doing Mind damage while the other Buff while the third is using an alternative combat skill. All buffs and heals only happen when the Entertainer is playing, so the Master Engager basically continues to solo the same way they have been already, just with a boost to Mind healing to lessen downtime.
Not everyone will want to be a Master Engager, just like not everyone wants to be every other profession. But it does allow those who love the Entertainment system a way to usefully combine Entertaining with their love for combat/adventure.
But it doesn't mean that we need an additional profession... This whole concept fits snugly and comfortably within the existing class skill-trees. The only question is one of balance - how to distribute the skill so it's not overpowered in hybrids, and how it should function in the game system so it's not abused or exploited.
Not every entertainer is going to hop down from the stage and run out the door with the marksmen, brawlers and medics, even if they're given the ability to do so. Give them an additional title? Sure. But why create an additional profession to handle what is already there and waiting to be used?
Darniaq got a bit off-topic:
Hehe, can anyone tell I played an EQ Bard?Did that for the entire last year I was in EQ. I loved them. They're subtlety ruled! My favorite expression (with an unfortunately unknown author) is: you never knew when a Bard was there, but you sure as heck knew when they left.
I loved grouping with bards, as a necromancer. Mmm.. Offsets to my mana conversion spell damage... Free mana... Itchy. Tasty.
Darniaq wrote:
Nameless, Holo has specifically mentioned your PM in this new thread in Gameplay Discussion:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Development&message.id=476555
I think that shows this is a viable concept. If we all continue to help flesh it out, we may get something for everyone!
I noticed this. I am glad that he is aware of both the problems with unhealable mind damage, and the potential for exploit in giving the medic-based classes the ability to affect the mind bar. I'm hopeful that this will attract some attention to the need for mind damage healing.
I'd like to see the current entertainer system altered to have the buffs duplicated in both trees. (Currently, one class buffs supporting stats, and the other gets the pool buffs. I'd like to see them both get these abilities - why shouldn't dancing and music be equal in the ends, but different in the means?)
I'd also like to see them given the system I outlined skeletally above. I'd like to see Entertainers on the field of play in the GCW and in PvE, helping their groups to prevail. I don't want them shackled to campsites and cantinas, and this is the current state of affairs.
Thanks for your input, Darniaq!