Entertainer Archive
Thread: If I were to define a social profession....
.... I would say that they mostly provide for *wants* instead of needs. A want I would say is fluff, something cool but has very little effect on the game. e.g. Bright Blue hair and a mowhawk, etc...
Okay what "wants" and for who?
Merchant ( Yes I consider it a social Profession )
Main Target: Crafters
e.g. Someone selling armor dosn't need a specific vendor to catagorize the armor they sell according to type. One vendor would work and fill their needs. They simply want to do it that way.
Image Designers
Main Target: Everyone. specificallyplayers who care how their toon looks
e.g. Someone dosn't need blue hair to hunt but they just want it anyway.
Politician
Main Target: City Residents
e.g. A city dosn't need a garden placed in front of the city hall. The people living there just want it.
MasterEntertainers (Dancer & Musician)
Main Target:Combatants ( maybe define it futher so the Dancer targets melee and Musician targets Ranged? )
e.g. They may want a boost to XP, but they don't need it.
I'll come bact to this later... right now, I need to go to bed 
. Just needed to post this before I forgot.
So who exactly provides "needs" then? I'm assuming if you are separating social and .. uhm... not social I guess would be the other category then there are non social professions that provide needs?
Okay that's a bit tongue in cheek but my hope would be that we completely stop using the phrase "social profession". Too many people attach their own definitions and "baggage" to the term that it only serves to confuse the entire community including the development team. Can we not simply think of these as professions that people enjoy playing whether they wish to be social while playing them or not? I see nothing wrong with trying to further define the goals and desires of each of the professions whether they are combat-centric or not but any time we start using the "social profession" we instantly lose cohesion. As an example, in your post you felt it important to clarify that you consider Merchant to be a social profession. You had to do that because you knew that Merchant is not universally accepted by everyone to be a "social" profession.
Personally I think all those "fluff services" have a definite effect on the game. SWG is all about immersion, would we all be playing this if the graphics were monocrome and the avatars were stick figures? Each of those professions you have listed, and many that you didn't, all help to fill out the sensory experience. Without them the game would be lacking. I see where you are trying to go with the idea but I think you are off-base with your starting point. A "want" isn't just fluff that has no real effect. A "want" is that which distinguishes SWG from a simple point and shoot video game. You may not need those things in order to grab your weapon and kill the creature, get the loot but you need them to make it seem like you are doing more than simply killing the creature and getting the loot.
What makes something a want instead of a need?
I always felt like mind buffs were a want. I always functioned just fine without, in both PVE and PVP. But other people obviously disagreed. So when I thought about it more I realized that the item and its uselefullness (barring things like high BF used to be, with the huge penalties attached) really has little impact on if it is a want or a need.
It's all availability.
An item is a want if you have to go without it sometimes but it makes your way easier when you are lucky enough to find it.
An item is a need when you become used to having it all the time, rely on it like a crutch and forget how to function without it.
Personally I'm 100% for entertainer benefits being wants, but not needs. But in order for it to happen, those benefits must, must, MUST be unavailable at some times.
Tank - Provides protection for the other party members if their prey has high DPS.
Damage Dealer - Deals damage quickly for his/her party if their prey has a great deal of armor and/or health.
Healer - In lieu of a (adequate) tank, keeps the group alive long enough to eliminate their prey.
Etc.
IMHO it's a little less black and white than just providing wants instead of needs....
Ikewe wrote:
So who exactly provides "needs" then? I'm assuming if you are separating social and .. uhm... not social I guess would be the other category then there are non social professions that provide needs?
Okay that's a bit tongue in cheek but my hope would be that we completely stop using the phrase "social profession". Too many people attach their own definitions and "baggage" to the term that it only serves to confuse the entire community including the development team. Can we not simply think of these as professions that people enjoy playing whether they wish to be social while playing them or not? I see nothing wrong with trying to further define the goals and desires of each of the professions whether they are combat-centric or not but any time we start using the "social profession" we instantly lose cohesion. As an example, in your post you felt it important to clarify that you consider Merchant to be a social profession. You had to do that because you knew that Merchant is not universally accepted by everyone to be a "social" profession.
Personally I think all those "fluff services" have a definite effect on the game. SWG is all about immersion, would we all be playing this if the graphics were monocrome and the avatars were stick figures? Each of those professions you have listed, and many that you didn't, all help to fill out the sensory experience. Without them the game would be lacking. I see where you are trying to go with the idea but I think you are off-base with your starting point. A "want" isn't just fluff that has no real effect. A "want" is that which distinguishes SWG from a simple point and shoot video game. You may not need those things in order to grab your weapon and kill the creature, get the loot but you need them to make it seem like you are doing more than simply killing the creature and getting the loot.
If you think about it, they are not combants and they are not crafters. They resemble politicians more than anything else in the game.
- Indirect / Direct?
- Services the address the characters' needs / Services that address the players needs?
) but if "Support Profession" is the correct term, Image Designer fails to fall within that category. ID offers no support IG and appeals directly to the player.
Isleh wrote:
RE: The use of the term "Social Profession"
There is a differance though. We are not crafters and we are not combantants. So what are we? and if if you were to name it, what wouldtha name be? Cohesion is the problem. If we want to not confuse the Devs and define what we are and where we want to go, then the best way is to not be lumped in with the crafters and combantants. The name is really unimportant. It's the distinction that we need so we don't wind up in the middle ground and stucksomewhere in between crafter and combatant.
We are players pure and simple. By trying to "assign" a label we're just asking for trouble. When we stop trying to create a flowchart of limited "descriptors" I think we'll finally open the door to understanding the unique opportunities available for everyone no matter the reason they play a particular profession.
RE: The inclusion of Merchant as a "Social Profession"
If you think about it, they are not combants and they are not crafters. They resemble politicians more than anything else in the game.
They are simply Merchants who add another layer of immersion to the game. People "play" them differently and by assigning a specific label like "social" to them we're piling a rationale and a reason for why and possibly how they should play the profession. If there was a universal understanding and acceptance of a single definition for"social profession" then there wouldn't be a problem. But there isn't and it's one of the things that caused so many problems for the entertainer professions. People kept using the term "social profession" and to some it simply meant a non-combat and non-crafting profession. But to many others it meant people who want to be social. That quickly descended into "people who want to stand around and chat all day". That's not what I'm about when I choose a non-combat and non-crafting profession and it's why the whole use of those terms causes me such angst.
One final thing
"SWG is all about immersion, would we all be playing this if the graphics were monocrome and the avatars were stick figures?"
If the story and the game was compelling enough, yes. Ever read a book that you could not put down?
The reason I can't put those books down isn't just because it's a good story. It's the way the story is told. I've picked up plenty of books because I was interested in the "story" but the authors just couldn't tell it. So into the bin they went. My point was that each profession adds to the player's ability to immerse themselves in the make believe realm of Star Wars. Each profession offers something unique and when we start lumping them into distinct categories we limit the potential because of our own biases and beliefs. Even trying to define professions as "combat" and "non combat" was a big mistake for the CU because low and behold all those "non combat" professions turned out to be intertwined with the "combat" professions in a way that not many people had predicted.
We are quite simply "the entertainer professions". If we stick with those generic labels then our ability to pigeon-hole the people in those professions is limited. That way I don't have to worry that I'm being lumped in with someone who chose the profession for completely different reasons and might want a completely different experience. I may be an entertainer and Jane may be an entertainer. But if I enjoy acompanying a group into a dangerous prison so that I can "charm" a key off a guard and Jane enjoys planning weddings and parties then Jane and I are probably going to have very different ideas about what a "social profession" entails. That's why the name actually is of the utmost importance. If we chose a category name we risk choosing one that has set connotations for the developers (and for our fellow gamers). And once we do that then the game is over for anyone whose playstyle doesn't match those connotations.
Maybe I’m just a total moron, but to me “social profession” is any profession in any game which isn’t single-player.
That’s why I don’t get all this huplah about us being some social oriented weirdoes with special needs. I’m sorry, but that is exactly the impression I’m getting lately each time I read any statement from Devs about us.
Entertainers are a support class, not a social butterflies, not interior decorations, not a wallpaper, but a Support Class, plain and simple.
Each game has main and support professions, that’s given. Devs job is to make sure all professions are intertwined and equally important. It’s called balance and balance is the main thing this game is lacking. Forget all the bugs for a moment and all you have left is one or two professions this game wraps around while the rest tries to fit in.
SWG is not the only game I actively play, plus my husband is gamer also so between two of us we usually have at least 5 active multi-player accounts going at one time.
But regardless which game I log in to I play the same. If I hop over to old EQ my Shaman will act the same way my dancer acts in SWG which acts same as my Bard does in EQ2. It’s always me… I log in to have fun, BS a bit and relax. When I log in to SWG I don’t suddenly morph in to some socialite or whatever it’s called. And that’s why I really dislike this segregation Dev started by calling us “special” and “unique social profession” They really need to realize we are not retards, we are just players same as the rest of their player base who want to have fun in heir game and actually “play” chosen characters.
Just because we choose not to participate in combat does not mean we don’t deserve any content or to have reason to step outside the cantina.
What I’m trying to say is, they really need to quit wasting time trying to overanalyze and overdefine us and just start working on game problems.
Petronela wrote:
What I’m trying to say is, they really need to quit wasting time trying to overanalyze and overdefine us and just start working on game problems.
The original goal of the Entertainer profession and the cantinas was to bring people together. That is the original function of Battle Fatigue. So the term "Social Profession" is correct and it was one of the unique concepts the broke the mold of every other MMORPG.
You have to be able to identify the problem before you can fix it and that involves defining where we want to go. The question is, Do wecontinue to break new ground or do we want to give up and get pigeon-holed in with the "Support Professions" and let SWG become a cookie-cutter copy of every other MMORPG.
Isleh wrote:
I am not defining the player but the profession.
Weare a "Social Profession" in very much the same way as there are "Crafting Professions" and there are "Combat Professions". The main purpose of a "Social Profession" is to bring players together. The main purpose of a "Crafting Profession" is to craft items. etc.. People play these professions because they like doing it.
You don't have any qualms about using the terms "Crafting, Combat and Support Professions". These terms do not describe the player but the main goal of the profession and thesetermsare important because it gives us a focal point to strive for. It says "Here. this is where I want to be". It encapsulates the concept and gives a starting point from expand from.
How are you going to provide something you can't even describe?
How are you going to know what not to provide?
You may not be trying to define the player but when you assign a name that carries a variety of definitions then others will indeed be defining the player and not the profession. I hate, yes hate, any attempts to categorize the professions even with terms like combat, crafting, and support. I hate it because by using those labels you have instantly limited the potential areas for expanding the abilities of those professions. We can achieve the goal of improving the professions and saying "here this is where I want to be" without resorting to a label like "social profession". We simply say "I'm an entertainer who wants to be able to do x, y, and z" That way if there's an entertainer who would prefer to do R, S, and T but who has a very different playstyle from my own then they still have room to push for that as well. I see lots of posts on the entertainer boards from people who when asked what they want focus of things like new dances, props, party favors, decorations, etc.. But what about the entertainers who don't really care about those things? When you start assigning a label you narrow the vision for the profession and risk pushing those who chose the profession and enjoy it for very different reasons out of it. I'm getting the impression we'll just have to agree to disagree. Which interestingly enough demonstrates my point even better than anything I've actually said
Ikewe wrote:
I hate it because by using those labels you have instantly limited the potential areas for expanding the abilities of those professions.
No.
I mean, how do you feel about professional titles/labels? "Dancer" and "Musician" from what I understand of your point of view, those are far more restrictive then "Social Professions". Yet I don't see you telling me not to call Dancers "Dancers" because I have instantly limited the potential areas for expanding the abilities of the Dancer Profession.
Let me ask you this. Why don't we seestuff likeLast Ditch given in the Entertainer Professions?
Ikewe wrote:
Nobut I also don't want to be labeled as a "social profession" when there are those who think that simply means I want to chat all day. And right now that's an astoundingly large number of people. I fail to understand why having such a label is important or even relevant in trying to define where and how entertainer professions will fit into the game. Cantinas may have been intended to be the "social hub" of the city but as we've all seen numerous times "game experience may change during online play". There was a time when the cantinas were an "activity hub" but that's no more. So let's worry more about providing the opportunities and experiences that each type of entertainer wants and less time devising ways to describe the type of player they are. Once we have done that, then people will once again gravitate to where the fun is. Whether that place is the NPC cantina of their choice or a camp in the middle of Dathomir doesn't matter. All that matters is that each of us have the opportunity to enjoy a profession that's like no other. Not because it is a "social profession" but because it can be anything we want it to be and is limited only by our own imaginations.
I am not defining the player but the profession.
Weare a "Social Profession" in very much the same way as there are "Crafting Professions" and there are "Combat Professions". The main purpose of a "Social Profession" is to bring players together. The main purpose of a "Crafting Profession" is to craft items. etc.. People play these professions because they like doing it.
You don't have any qualms about using the terms "Crafting, Combat and Support Professions". These terms do not describe the player but the main goal of the profession and thesetermsare important because it gives us a focal point to strive for. It says "Here. this is where I want to be". It encapsulates the concept and gives a starting point from expand from.
How are you going to provide something you can't even describe?
How are you going to know what not to provide?
Just like if I told you I read an article on "Political Science", that term, those two words convey alot of information. A common misconception about what a team means does not mean that the term is incorrect. It just means that those that are misinformed need to be educated.
That said
If a Social Profession's main goal is to bring players together. What abilities & ideascould we start listing that may actually perform that function becauseIf we don't give the Devs something to work with, you can bet we'll end up as a Support Profession.