Entertainer Archive
Thread: Yet another AFK balancing proposal...
1) Pro-AFK argument: AFK entertainers are great when I'm badly in need of healing and there aren't any other live entertainers around (in specific locations or time of day/night), and;
2) Anti-AFK argument: AFK entertainers are the Devil, because I work hard at my profession - they don't. Why should they get the same rewards as I do?
Oh, and a somewhat unspoken third camp...
3) Pro-AFK: I want to get Master the easiest way possible without having to do anything.
Perhaps the answer isn't in trying to do away with AFK, but rather to adjust the rewards given for doing so.
Would it be possible for the devs to code in dramatically reduced XP gains, and/or healing rates, while AFK? Perhaps AFK only gains 25% XP and heals at 50% rate of normal, ATK play. The precedent: Image Designers practicing on themselves gain only 25% ID XP... to get full XP, you've got to interact with other players.
This might just satisfy both of the first two camps, and as far as I'm concerned the third camp is already running a borderline (perhaps even full) exploit of the macro system, so too bad. Actually playing the game live, ATK, reaps full benefits... but when player's can't be ATK for some reason they can still gain a little reward while providing healing for those who need it. The slower healing rates from AFKers would encourage players to watch/listen to live performers if available, since they'll be on their way twice as quickly. The choice of tipping live vs. AFK entertainers is always up to the individual, but it seems that a lot of people do recognize the effort put in when the show is ATK... so that's something at least.
Anyone think this would help? Hurt? Or change nothing? Is it even a feasible solution? I welcome discussion.
It's not "exploiting" according to the real rules as shown in the in-game holocron.
Xyrdre wrote:
as far as I'm concerned the third camp is already running a borderline (perhaps even full) exploit of the macro system, so too bad.
JasonK wrote:It's not "exploiting" according to the real rules as shown in the in-game holocron.
Xyrdre wrote:
as far as I'm concerned the third camp is already running a borderline (perhaps even full) exploit of the macro system, so too bad.
True, not technically. But my take on the mention in the EULA regarding third-party stuff implies that unattended gameplay is not meant to be encouraged. My take on this is more that it's exploiting the spirit of the 'law', if not the letter. 'Course, I could be wrong about that... just my personal opinion.
And I agree that the holocron thing indirectly, but completely, encouraged it. Again, though... I don't think the devs had hoped to create a nation of AFKers when they implemented the holocron system. Based on what I read from the Game Spy articles, they hoped that players who were skilled at a variety of professions would be rewarded with the FSCS... which unfortunately turned out to be a quite short-sighted view.
The devs who created the game didn't write the EULA so if you want to get to the true "spirit" I wouldn't be looking there. I heard it was almost a direct copy from EQ's EULA anyways.
Raph's Laws of Online World Design provides some insight into the thinking of the devs who actually created the macro system and intended for it to be used by everybody.
"No matter what you do, someone is going to automate the process of playing your world."
"Looking at what parts of your game players tend to automate is a good way to determine which parts of the game are tedious and/or not fun."
"Players will eventually find the shortest path to the cheese."
I think that sums up the AFK entertainers pretty well. People automate it because it's tedious and/or not fun to take the long path tothe "cheese". Did the devs envision this happening? Well, Raph's as knowledgable about MMORPGs as anybody so I would think so. Then again, maybe he didn't think the entertainer professions were as tedious and/or not fun as they reallyare.
Actually the hyothesis was probably something more like:
This is a game.
Games are supposed to be fun.
If a profession isn't fun, they can quit at any time.
There is no reason to do something that isn't fun.*
Therefor, socilizers (j0!) can have a class that doesn't really get dangerous and therefor have their own niche.
Achievers won't get into the profession because it isn't fun, and this is a game.
Gee, isn't that simple?
*Hologrinders throw this out of whack. Praise the jedi quests and may the end of grinding come swiftly.
Go in game and check the holocron to see if it's allowed or not. Do you need help doing that?
Nice hypothesis, except for the fact that the devs created the FSCS system to force achievers into those professions. Talk about circular logic. At least mine was based on actual quotes from an actual developer instead of pulled straight outta my ass.
JasonK wrote:Go in game and check the holocron to see if it's allowed or not. Do you need help doing that?
Nice hypothesis, except for the fact that the devs created the FSCS system to force achievers into those professions. Talk about circular logic.
Why read one document to the exclusion of the rest? The devs are not the sole power in this game; if they were the crafter nerf would have stayed in.
Circular logic is perhaps not your problem. While it is one of them, as you are arguing that AFK does and does not harm ATK entertainers, more telling is that you don't read everything. I allready pointed out that hologrinding is a flaw in that hypothesis. And it is one the devs admit to. Your point is invalid.
Next argument?
Edit: Hey when the heck did I become a veteran? Cool!
Message Edited by Ryyger on 03-16-2004 07:17 PM
As it stands, banning is too harsh and unreasonable. Though I would throw a party if it happened. Rather, I would like to see a change in the coding that removed the ability for a macro to start a macro or do a /ui action toolbarSlotxx. This would allow macroing, a practice I have no problem with, while requiring that a player has to pay attention to restart the macro every now and again. In hand with this is a limit on how long a macro can be.
Alternatively is a system that forces the AFK tag and diminishes or removes the XP return for any activity with that tag on. This gives you your healing bots and buff bots while forcing players to feel the grind to get to that level or aquience to novice healing. The problem with that is that it can be worked around by third-party programs and is fairly hard to program in comparison to removing a couple of line commands.
"No matter what you do, someone is going to automate the process of playing your world."
"Looking at what parts of your game players tend to automate is a good way to determine which parts of the game are tedious and/or not fun."
"Players will eventually find the shortest path to the cheese."
Do you think cause they hurt you they should be banned or something?
JasonK wrote:Raph's Laws of Online World Design provides some insight into the thinking of the devs who actually created the macro system and intended for it to be used by everybody.
"No matter what you do, someone is going to automate the process of playing your world."
"Looking at what parts of your game players tend to automate is a good way to determine which parts of the game are tedious and/or not fun."
"Players will eventually find the shortest path to the cheese."
I think that sums up the AFK entertainers pretty well. People automate it because it's tedious and/or not fun to take the long path to the "cheese". Did the devs envision this happening? Well, Raph's as knowledgable about MMORPGs as anybody so I would think so. Then again, maybe he didn't think the entertainer professions were as tedious and/or not fun as they really are.
I think you make some good points here, and I agree that it seems to sum up AFKers pretty well. My original point in posting this thread was not to launch into another 'should AFKers be banned' battle (although probably unavoidable, in hindsight), but rather to offer up some ideas in which AFKing would not be the shortest path to the cheese, and therefore not as attractive as playing live.
Much of the hostility coming from the entertainer professions towards AFKers appears to be centered around the 'cheapening' of the professions that we enjoy playing, with the fear that these professions will become no longer viable to play. When playing pure entertainers, our sole source of income is the tips we receive for our healing services (and additional conversation and entertainment for the roleplayers). If AFK grinders continue to be prevalent, we may no longer have a viable place in the game. Replaced by a machine. Hence the motivation to lessen the appeal of automating "entertainment".
In addition to the ideas in my original post, the tedious and/or not fun aspect still needs to be addressed. I think that even the most vocal opponents of AFK entertaining would agree that the entertainment professions could use a lot more content (well, seems everyone agrees that the whole game needs a lot more content, but that's for another thread entirely). Still, it's not as tedious for people who want to play entertainers as it is for people who don't want to, or we wouldn't do it. The holocron-to-Jedi thing has definitely caused huge problems, in that players who ordinarily wouldn't play entertainers have been forced to do so. Someone who never wanted to play an entertainer in the first place would see the entire experience as tedious and/or not fun. And therein, I think, lies the problem in that regard. But with the holocron system switching to a quest based one, this aspect should start to clear up.
How much of this whole issue is rooted in the differences of mindset betweeen the roleplayers and PvPers? Probably quite a bit. The pure roleplayers would clearly see AFKers as ruining the profession of entertainers by gaining the rewards while not actually entertaining; I've never personally heard anyone say that they really enjoy the spam spewing forth every few seconds while someone who isn't really there goes through the motions. On the other hand, the pure PvPers seem primarily to just want to get in there and get healed and/or buffed, and get back out to what they enjoy... the last thing in the world they want is someone chattering on at them about anything. So the AFK becomes the PvP perfect solution.
I thought that my proposal might just find a compromise both sides of the coin... or at least be a starting point. Under the proposed ideas, there are still some benefits to going AFK... just lessened XP than while actively playing... so players can still get their healing in the wee hours of the night. But the overall attractiveness is reduced, leaving more room for those who actually want to play entertainers to earn a living.
With that in mind, I'll re-pose the question. Would this help, hurt, or change nothing?
nvoigt wrote:
What exactly is your point with the AFKers hurting you anyway?
Do you think cause they hurt you they should be banned or something?
Well, that's the point in griefing tactics, right ? Putting your personal gain over the fun that others should have in-game ? I would expect griefing to have some consequences. But in this game, the developers think it's cool to not-play it. Says a lot about the game.
Every time you log in it increases lag for everybody else and hurts their fun. Should you get the personal gain of being able to play at the expense of hurting everybody else who's already logged in?
Ryyger wrote:
If they harmed me, personally, of course not. However they are instead degrading the profession as an entirety, reducing it to the role of an NPC rather than a player. Since that argument is amorphous, I chose to point out that the AFKing majority has caused a quantifiable loss of respect and monetary returns to the ATKing minority.
All pure combat professions can be 100% AFK macroed just like entertaining. Why haven't they suffered a quantifiable loss of respect?
Maybe you should take a trip over to the USSR and help yourself to some good 'ole fashioned communist economics since you seem to dislike free market economies. Oops, almost forget their economy blew so bad it broke the country up. I hear Cuba is nice this time of year.