Entertainer Archive
Thread: PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING ON THE PROPOSED CHANGES TO MACROS
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Tiaga
Wed Aug 04, 2004 8:38 pm
#1
Presently there has been no word on exactly how they plan to do this. Myself and some of the other correspondents are trying to get this information. Until we hear more, there is no saying how they will do this.
In other words, nowhere is it writ that they are getting rid of /macro or any of the /ui actions. Nowhere is it writ that macros or aliases are going away completely. There are many ways to do what they are trying for, that is but one, and an unlikely one at that.
Many of the complaints I have been hearing are based off the assumption that there is only one way and it is by removing commands. If your argument or complaint is based on assumptions, please re-think it instead of posting it.
I will not hesitate to report threads started based off these assumptions.
In other words, nowhere is it writ that they are getting rid of /macro or any of the /ui actions. Nowhere is it writ that macros or aliases are going away completely. There are many ways to do what they are trying for, that is but one, and an unlikely one at that.
Many of the complaints I have been hearing are based off the assumption that there is only one way and it is by removing commands. If your argument or complaint is based on assumptions, please re-think it instead of posting it.
I will not hesitate to report threads started based off these assumptions.
PhoenixStar
Thu Aug 05, 2004 10:00 pm
#2
They didn't have to say they were removing /macro or /ui actions, most people only know how to make a macro loop by using /macro or /ui actions, I don't even think there's any other way to do it. So they didn't really have to say "We're removing /macro and /ui actions", saying that they're removing recursive macros is the exact same thing if macros can no longer call macros. 
nvoigt
Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:58 am
#3
No. Instead of removing /ui commands or /macro calls, they could as well implement a call chain and end macros when a well known token ( i.e. one that appeared in the parent chain before ) is hit. This would be a very effective way.
Matter of fact we don't know what will happen, so speculation is fruitless.
Vorpaks
Fri Aug 06, 2004 10:24 am
#4
Tiaga wrote:
I will not hesitate to report threads started based off these assumptions.
/cheer
loonatik
Sun Aug 08, 2004 11:46 am
#5
Tiga, all this is going to do is hurt the game. I was VERY impressed by SOE allowing the ellaborate macro system to be in the game. It makes 3rd party programs not as needed.
Starting down this path is a very very bad idea. There is nothing positive that will come of it. Its going to force people to move to 3rd party programs which will make SOE want to get **edit** and start trying to prevent them. All they will do is turn into ORIGIN. and to this day they have lost the battle to preventing 3rd party programs. I strongly advise you to think about this and pass this thought up to the higher ups.
Bruno Salieri
Tiaga
Sun Aug 08, 2004 5:01 pm
#6
loonatik wrote:Tiga, all this is going to do is hurt the game. I was VERY impressed by SOE allowing the ellaborate macro system to be in the game. It makes 3rd party programs not as needed.Starting down this path is a very very bad idea. There is nothing positive that will come of it. Its going to force people to move to 3rd party programs which will make SOE want to get **edit** and start trying to prevent them. All they will do is turn into ORIGIN. and to this day they have lost the battle to preventing 3rd party programs. I strongly advise you to think about this and pass this thought up to the higher ups.Bruno Salieri
Just like it's hurt all the other MMORPGs out there?
loonatik
Mon Aug 09, 2004 7:31 am
#7
Tiaga wrote:
loonatik wrote:
Tiga, all this is going to do is hurt the game. I was VERY impressed by SOE allowing the ellaborate macro system to be in the game. It makes 3rd party programs not as needed.
Starting down this path is a very very bad idea. There is nothing positive that will come of it. Its going to force people to move to 3rd party programs which will make SOE want to get **edit** and start trying to prevent them. All they will do is turn into ORIGIN. and to this day they have lost the battle to preventing 3rd party programs. I strongly advise you to think about this and pass this thought up to the higher ups.
Bruno Salieri
Just like it's hurt all the other MMORPGs out there?
Yes, the same problem was present in Asherons Call, Anarchy Online, Ultima Online, and even in Everquest. Most of which tried to prevent the programs. All of which have failed thus far.
Message Edited by loonatik on 08-09-2004 09:32 AM
Tiaga
Mon Aug 09, 2004 8:51 am
#8
That doesn't mean they should stop trying. It's not something you can ever 100% succeed at, as people by nature want something for nothing. But those games have much less problem with unattended play than SWG does.
Just because it's impossible is not a good reason to stop trying. By that logic you should leave your front door open and your car unlocked with the keys in the ignition, since you can't stop someone who wants to get in or steal your car.
Just because it's impossible is not a good reason to stop trying. By that logic you should leave your front door open and your car unlocked with the keys in the ignition, since you can't stop someone who wants to get in or steal your car.
JohnMarble
Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:36 am
#9
No matter how many laws you pass or prisons you build, people will continue to murder one another. So they should just revoke laws and make murder legal, and issue everyone a handgun.
Aleyo
Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:47 am
#10
Ooh, fun.
Lemme try:
No matter how many laws, ad campaigns, or shock videos there are, people will still drive drunk.
We should have the car manufacturers install beer straws in all vehicles, connected to the trunk where there will be a chilled mini-keg. Get rid of the silly laws and let everyone have the same opportunities to drive drunk.
Lemme try:
No matter how many laws, ad campaigns, or shock videos there are, people will still drive drunk.
We should have the car manufacturers install beer straws in all vehicles, connected to the trunk where there will be a chilled mini-keg. Get rid of the silly laws and let everyone have the same opportunities to drive drunk.
Tiaga
Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:08 am
#11
Aleyo wrote:
Ooh, fun.
Lemme try:
No matter how many laws, ad campaigns, or shock videos there are, people will still drive drunk.
We should have the car manufacturers install beer straws in all vehicles, connected to the trunk where there will be a chilled mini-keg. Get rid of the silly laws and let everyone have the same opportunities to drive drunk.
While I like the intent, I'm not sure I can stand behind this proposed chance. At least not as it stands.
I would like to propose that if this goes through, the speed of cars should be nerfed to 5mph and rubber bumpers around the rim of th ecar should be a requirement.
Tiaga
Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:04 pm
#12
loonatik wrote:
Tiaga wrote:
That doesn't mean they should stop trying. It's not something you can ever 100% succeed at, as people by nature want something for nothing. But those games have much less problem with unattended play than SWG does.
Just because it's impossible is not a good reason to stop trying. By that logic you should leave your front door open and your car unlocked with the keys in the ignition, since you can't stop someone who wants to get in or steal your car.You are missing the point. It dosent prevent anything. It just forces people to use outside software. Once that starts rolling it all goes down hill. They had a good idea by allowing it in the game. It satisifed most people so they didnt have to download outside stuff. I also think you are naieve to think other mmogs dont have their fair share of unattended macroing. I have played almost every single one, and its rampit in just about all of them.
Your anaology is a little flawed. People unattended macroing are not stealing anything. Anyone can download a in game macro and use it. Its open to everyone. You put up a policy like this and people will do it anyway but do it in 3rd party programs. Then you have a bigger issue because its really unfair to the people who dont know how to use them.
I speak from experience. I have seen it happen in a lot of mmogs. SWG was one of the first to openly welcome macroing in the game. I was very impressed. Doing this now is taking a huge step backwards.
Am I the one missing the point? I thought the point of a game was to play.
Why can AFK play be likened to stealing? Because you are getting something (xp, credits, loot, whatever) for nothing (No effort involved, and no, downloading a macro does not count as effort any more than picking up a brick to hurl through a window does.) But that is not the analogy I was drawing. That lock on your front door, how effective do you think that is? Do you know that there are even automated lockpicks these days? All you do is jam it in, give it a twist and hit a button. (Oversimplified a little, but the point stands.) Even with a secure lock, a good old fashioned brick through your window gets right past it. Despite knowing that locks are ineffective, I still use mine. It keeps honest people honest.
Yes, unattended play is all over the place. So is burglary. That's what laws are for, so when someone is caught doing it, they can be dealt with. In the case of MMORPGs, the laws are the EULA (Go read it... It's in there... Pay close attention to paragraph 7) and the way it is dealt with is suspension of the account.
One of SWG's biggest downfalls is it's alleged lack of content. I put forward that it has content, players have just figured out ways to macro around it. Sure, you could still go through it, but it does cheapen the accomplishment a little knowing you could have just macrod through the whole thing and not played at all and done just as well. SWG has probably more content than any other MMORPG I've played, it's just all been trivialized. Admittedly macros are not wholly responsible, but they had a hand in it.
I hate to say it but 3rd party programs are already pretty rampantly used in SWG. Can you spot anyone (Who doesn't openly say so) who is using a 3rd party program? Not right now, because in many cases it's nearly indistinguishable from something that has been deemed OK. Get rid of that something and now theres a risk to using a 3rd party program. So yes, it does stop a lot. If it didn't stop anything, why would so many people be concerned about it in the first place?
Erawia_D
Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:32 pm
#13
Yea, tiaga, after my last post and your response on TH's thread I started thinking about the same thing. Content for a MMORPG IS the interactions between characters. The progress to attain master by interacting with other characters, (be it healing, combat, or simple trading)IS the Content SoE programmed into the game, and the basis for most every RPG out there. The hologrind changed that mentality, and shifted the player mentality from one of 'content is character interactions' to a mentality of 'content is what I can do in the gamewhen I'm a master'. Content in an FPS game is getting master and killing the biggest thing you can kill (witness diablo); and that mentality has now pervaded SWG. Removing recursive macros isn't going to change that mentality, and it isn't going to restore the 'character interactions' as content.
Another concept that has been lost, in large part due to the hologrind, is player 'interactiveness' (this means the person 'interactiing' with the game, which is different from profession interdependency) Part of the awarding of XP to gain skills is based on 'interactivity'. People who are more interactive generally do things faster, and thus gain skills faster and are rewarded for their 'interactiveness'. AFKplayable recurisive macros means a completely non-interactive player gains the same as a completely active player. The only remaining factor in awarding XP is 'time', hence the complaints about the length of time that it takes to 'earn' master, and how boring it is since there is a perceived loss of content as mentioned in the first paragraph. As a poster on another thread points out, right now someone that is reading a book and typing a key every so often is gaining the same xp as someone who is paying complete and total attention to the game. Playability should be based on 'interactivity', and with recursive macros and AFKplay in some professions, it isn't.
That's why I've come to the conclusion that you are in fact correct; removing recursive macros won't solve the loss of the two above concepts from the game.
One thing that I think could be done to start progressing back towards 'interactivity', is have the XP or other gains whileAFK diminish in the same way as XP for flourishing in dances. Each successive loop (be it macro or not) will award 5% less XP, be 5% less successfull at attack, be a 5% less effective buff from an unattended buffbot, whatever. Players who are at their keyboards will be receiving more benefit then being interactive then players who are not. You can still run to the bathroom, answer the phone, whatever, but the longer you're afk, the less of a benefit you will receive. And enforce a hard autologout when it drops to 0.
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