Entertainer Archive
Thread: BuffBots, are they really the problem?
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PistolDance
Sat Jul 31, 2004 2:22 pm
#1
Buffbots are the symptom of the problem, not the problem alone.
Buffbots were generally created by people that could not get entertainer buffs on their combat char.
I dont see a problem with the ability to attain entertainer buffs from an AFK person, as many times, it is impossible or too time consumingto find an ATK entertainer.
This uproar over buffbots isnt logical to me for two reasons:
1. They wouldnt be there if there were more entertainers on the server.
2. Solving a symptom of a problem does not solve the problem.
Why not focus on making the entertainer professions more enjoyable so there will be more entertainers there to buff instead of trying to stop people from playing the game the way they wish to?
I would just rather see the main problem so fervidly attacked,rather thanworking on the problems that arose because of it.
Drygo
Sat Jul 31, 2004 2:38 pm
#2
PistolDance wrote:
Buffbots are the symptom of the problem, not the problem alone.
Buffbots were generally created by people that could not get entertainer buffs on their combat char.
I dont see a problem with the ability to attain entertainer buffs from an AFK person, as many times, it is impossible or too time consumingto find an ATK entertainer.
This uproar over buffbots isnt logical to me for two reasons:
1. They wouldnt be there if there were more entertainers on the server.
2. Solving a symptom of a problem does not solve the problem.
Why not focus on making the entertainer professions more enjoyable so there will be more entertainers there to buff instead of trying to stop people from playing the game the way they wish to?
I would just rather see the main problem so fervidly attacked,rather thanworking on the problems that arose because of it.
Similarly, 1) There would be more entertainers on the server if there weren't as many buffbots, and
2) You're right. The problem, however, is not that the professions are boring, because they're not. The problem is that SWG allows an all encompassing afk macro system, which needs to go.
PistolDance
Sat Jul 31, 2004 3:04 pm
#3
Drygo wrote:
PistolDance wrote:
Buffbots are the symptom of the problem, not the problem alone.
Buffbots were generally created by people that could not get entertainer buffs on their combat char.
I dont see a problem with the ability to attain entertainer buffs from an AFK person, as many times, it is impossible or too time consumingto find an ATK entertainer.
This uproar over buffbots isnt logical to me for two reasons:
1. They wouldnt be there if there were more entertainers on the server.
2. Solving a symptom of a problem does not solve the problem.
Why not focus on making the entertainer professions more enjoyable so there will be more entertainers there to buff instead of trying to stop people from playing the game the way they wish to?
I would just rather see the main problem so fervidly attacked,rather thanworking on the problems that arose because of it.
Similarly, 1) There would be more entertainers on the server if there weren't as many buffbots, and
2) You're right. The problem, however, is not that the professions are boring, because they're not. The problem is that SWG allows an all encompassing afk macro system, which needs to go.
Like I said before, the increased number of buffbots in the past month was a result of the lack of entertainers.
Its not the other way around, if it were why are the bots all of a sudden showing up in major city cantinas, where as before, they were only in player cantinas. Comabtants could not find entertainers to buff them, so they resorted to making their secondaries bots.
If the problem isnt the profession in itself, then where are all the entertainers? Before the bots started showing up entertainers were quitting and complaining about the profession's content. The only entertainers in a cantina were those grinding for Holo's.
I have been on both sides of this dilema, both as a dancer and as a combatant. I would walk into a cantina only to find AFK master dancers (no they were not buffboting).
Have you tried asking combatants "why?", have you tried asking the buffbots "why?". Go to one of their forums and do so. You will get the same answer with both, buffs were not available.
PoetDancer
Sat Jul 31, 2004 3:16 pm
#4
Let me ask you this, Milandra. Why are you saying its our responsibility to buff you when you must buff yourself by doing /watch or /listen? This goes to the heart of why buffbots are around. Because I always had to deal with unattended entertainers in the cantina, but they were never buffbots, and were generally never tipped or even used by the majority of combat players. It never impacted my gameplay until the current buffing rules were implemented. Now why is that? Because I got a new sort of request that I never recieved before:
"Can u buff me?"
And this is silly, isn't it? Because I cannot buff anyone unless they /watch or /listen, no matter how hard I try. But its a lot more complicated now, isn't it? Because now in order to give you all the things your /watch can give you, I have to either type /setperform, or break away with my group and group you all. And while this normally wouldn't be a problem, it was never really clear what the roles and responsibilities of buffer and buffee were in this situation, and all it did was cause confusion and resentment. Because somewhere along the way, it became our fault if the buff did not turn out well. It became our fault if you left the cantina and did not get a buff. It became our fault if you customers felt your time was wasted if you didn't get what you went to the cantina to get.
And likewise, Milandra, we on this end of the buffing cycle started to hate getting "can u buff me" tells. Because they usually took us away from the cantina activities we were doing to engage in a procedure wherethe risk to our fun oftentimes wasn't worth the rewards. Because I don't think that there is a customer or a buffer out there that hadn't hada buff go bad because of something done out of sequence. And quite frankly, buffing is so dependent on timing and coordination of buffer and bufee that it is more suited to preprogrammed efficiency to tell precicely when to /group, when to /watch, and when to /stopwatch. Its something that is not fun or rewarding to live players oneither end of the buffing process.
Buffs are rare only because of the current buffing rules. No longer can one player fully service a cantina. Now, a player can only fully service a maximum of 20 players at a time. No longer can a player simply walk into a cantina and get everything the cantina has to offer them by simply /watching or /listening. A player must now somehow convince an entertainer to do a simple "/" command. The problem is that this "/" command, be it /setperform, /invite, or /join, forces the entertainer into doing things he or she might not otherwise do, like break with their group, or deny everyone else from getting a buff at the same time. Moreover, it places the entertainer in a position of culpapbility if something goes wrong. And like I said, there is a lot in the buffing procedure that is beyond our control. It causes stress on both sides of the procedure. And stress is not fun for any party, especially in the place where players went to "unwind."
So since the game affords you the opportunity to perform unattended, you simply programmed entities to cut through the confusion and stress between buffer and buffee. Can't say I blame you, but it doesn't do the players who are trying to play this thing live any help. It only makes the prospect of being an entertainer so unenjoyable and full of worry that they ceace to be motivated to do the things they have always done, be witty, amusing, creative, and fun to be around for all of the other players.
So I agree with you. If buffing were more fun, we wouldn't need buffbots. But you need to understand what the customer's role is in all of this. We do not buff. You must buff yourselves by /watching or /listening.
PistolDance
Sat Jul 31, 2004 3:20 pm
#5
Drygo wrote:
The problem is that SWG allows an all encompassing afk macro system, which needs to go.
Drygo, instead of focusing all yourenergy on making entertainer buffs impossible to find, why not focus on an incentive for combatants to seek out ATK entertainers?
Focus on suggestions of new game mechanics that can be implemented only by ATK entertainers?
Like some kind of radial menu option targeting single players or group leaders that give a bonus to the buff when used?
kirah_ashlin
Sat Jul 31, 2004 3:27 pm
#6
I'm sorry, but as you are not an entertainer your information is limited and faulty. The majority of the entertainers who have left the game/profession in the past couple of months have done so as a direct result of the buffbot problem. Drygo being one of them. Read the threads here. Get educated in the issues that are affecting the entertainers themselves before making comment on our inadequacies.Stop looking at it only from your own viewpoint. The hologrind severely crippled the entertainer profession. The buffbots promise to kill it outright if something isn't done to stop it. Please don't be one of the combat types who only cares about what is convenient for them - think of your fellow players.
Are there other issues? Yes. However, until the ability to non-play 23/7 is curtailed by the devs buffbots will continue to ruin the game for entertainers. We can't compete with automatons who can give away the very thing that isthe main source of income for many entertainers.
By the way - I wear my Master Dancer title all the time. I can't tell you the last time someone has used the player search option to contact me for a buff. I doubt that anyone has since March. That is the simplest way to locate entertainers. Why is it then thatcombat players don't take the time to use it?
PistolDance
Sat Jul 31, 2004 3:39 pm
#7
PoetDancer wrote:
Because somewhere along the way, it became our fault if the buff did not turn out well. It became our fault if you left the cantina and did not get a buff. It became our fault if you customers felt your time was wasted if you didn't get what you went to the cantina to get.
I have yet to get a bad entertainer buff from a buffbot.
I have yet to recieve a full buff from an ATK entertainer (except a few times, in a raid situation).
So by saying the bad buffs are all the customers fault is illogical, if it were in fact my fault for not listening and watching properly how is it I recieve perfect buffs from the bots? Magic?
And likewise, Milandra, we on this end of the buffing cycle started to hate getting "can u buff me" tells. Because they usually took us away from the cantina activities we were doing to engage in a procedure wherethe risk to our fun oftentimes wasn't worth the rewards.
It saddens me to hear you do not like the wayentertainerswere given a viable way of making money at their profession, and in fact find it disheartening to hear you dont even like doing it.
Why would I choose someone that gets annoyed whenasked to perform over a bot that appreciates the business?
There are very easy ways to make that button you push to macro buff someone an enjoyable event.
Because I don't think that there is a customer or a buffer out there that hadn't hada buff go bad because of something done out of sequence. And quite frankly, buffing is so dependent on timing and coordination of buffer and bufee that it is more suited to preprogrammed efficiency to tell precicely when to /group, when to /watch, and when to /stopwatch. Its something that is not fun or rewarding to live players oneither end of the buffing process.
So why do you complain about bots, you dont like buffing. Let them do it and have fun with the game the way you enjoy it. If you want to change the way buffing was implemented for entertainers wouldnt it be more productive to focus on this aspect instead of asking for bots to be removed, are they not two completely different subjects?
Buffs are rare only because of the current buffing rules. No longer can one player fully service a cantina. Now, a player can only fully service a maximum of 20 players at a time. No longer can a player simply walk into a cantina and get everything the cantina has to offer them by simply /watching or /listening. A player must now somehow convince an entertainer to do a simple "/" command. The problem is that this "/" command, be it /setperform, /invite, or /join, forces the entertainer into doing things he or she might not otherwise do, like break with their group, or deny everyone else from getting a buff at the same time. Moreover, it places the entertainer in a position of culpapbility if something goes wrong. And like I said, there is a lot in the buffing procedure that is beyond our control. It causes stress on both sides of the procedure. And stress is not fun for any party, especially in the place where players went to "unwind."
Again if you hate it so much, find a way to get it changed. But dont deprive others of buffs just because you cant find enjoyment in the entertainer profession.
So since the game affords you the opportunity to perform unattended, you simply programmed entities to cut through the confusion and stress between buffer and buffee. Can't say I blame you, but it doesn't do the players who are trying to play this thing live any help. It only makes the prospect of being an entertainer so unenjoyable and full of worry that they ceace to be motivated to do the things they have always done, be witty, amusing, creative, and fun to be around for all of the other players.
I have NEVER afk buffedIn fact even when I was grinding through the entertainer professions to become force sensitive I was never afk and was always the leader of the group. I gave them all up on that server, but I ground dancer twice on my main server. Once because it was the first profession that intrigued me, and the second time after(giving it up) I missed it.
Zilod
Sat Jul 31, 2004 3:40 pm
#8
in my opinion bonus to buffs is not a solution
players are too used to buffbots
an example
some time ago i was grouped with some atk entertainers we had bot a mdance and a mmusic so we where able to buff at twice the speed of a buff bot
we where advicing that but people simply ignored us at all and went to the local buff bot
alse there where not entertainers around not because the profession is boring but because afk hologrinders have ruined the profession at the point that is no more playable
at publish 10 hologrinding will stop but then we will still have buffbots that make entertainers look like npcs, just click on it and you are ok.
buffbots cut also entertainers profits and interactionwith other players (as said above)
so why a player have to do entertainer in a world full of buffbots?
i can assure you that is just frustrating...
advices?
stop buffbots
remove the /join and autojoin commands
or make an interface to give buffs
a simple one like a secure trade or an ID one with the service you are giving, the money the customer offers and both that have to press an OK button, or even a more complex one with list of actual customers or listening people and the ability to set buffs from there so will be possible to handle multiple buffs at same time.
remove afk (and most of them are holos or buffbots) and entertainers will begin to play again, before december (big hologrind) there where tons of atk entertainers around.
PistolDance
Sat Jul 31, 2004 4:00 pm
#9
kirah_ashlin wrote:
I'm sorry, but as you are not an entertainer your information is limited and faulty.
I am a twice mastered Dancer on the Gorath server. Please read my post thoroughly.
Stop looking at it only from your own viewpoint.
This is simply what I ask of you. I know the entertainer point of view.
The hologrind severely crippled the entertainer profession.
I agree and am glad it will be over soon.
The buffbots promise to kill it outright if something isn't done to stop it.
Stopping the buffbots insures majority of combatants unbuffed. Why not focus on what made those bots appear, it is a simple issue, then deal with thebot problem.
And if you took the timeto educate yourself on why people head towards a bot over ATK and why the bots are spreading you might see my point.
Please don't be one of the combat types who only cares about what is convenient for them - think of your fellow players.
lol ditto
Are there other issues? Yes. However, until the ability to non-play 23/7 is curtailed by the devs buffbots will continue to ruin the game for entertainers. We can't compete with automatons who can give away the very thing that isthe main source of income for many entertainers.
Why cant you? What makes a player choose a bot over you? Why not work on the answers to these questions instead of demanding the end to a different style of playing?
By the way - I wear my Master Dancer title all the time. I can't tell you the last time someone has used the player search option to contact me for a buff. I doubt that anyone has since March. That is the simplest way to locate entertainers. Why is it then thatcombat players don't take the time to use it?
Entertainer buffs only last 2 hours. Since doc buffs last longer I get them first.
Every minute spent traveling to find an ATK entertainer or waiting for an ATK entertainer takes away the time I have to play effectively.
I understand entertainer is a social profession and we are all fighting to keep it that way, but I think a lot of you forget the people needing buffs are just trying to spend time being social as well, just not with you.
Hope that came out right
I have always asked for an ATK before getting buffed by a bot, I am always in the entertainer channel and always do a search. How many times were my searches successful? I can count them on one hand.
PistolDance
Sat Jul 31, 2004 4:07 pm
#10
Zilod wrote:
in my opinion bonus to buffs is not a solution
players are too used to buffbots
an example
some time ago i was grouped with some atk entertainers we had bot a mdance and a mmusic so we where able to buff at twice the speed of a buff bot
we where advicing that but people simply ignored us at all and went to the local buff bot
alse there where not entertainers around not because the profession is boring but because afk hologrinders have ruined the profession at the point that is no more playable
at publish 10 hologrinding will stop but then we will still have buffbots that make entertainers look like npcs, just click on it and you are ok.
buffbots cut also entertainers profits and interactionwith other players (as said above)
so why a player have to do entertainer in a world full of buffbots?
i can assure you that is just frustrating...
advices?
stop buffbots
remove the /join and autojoin commands
or make an interface to give buffs
a simple one like a secure trade or an ID one with the service you are giving, the money the customer offers and both that have to press an OK button, or even a more complex one with list of actual customers or listening people and the ability to set buffs from there so will be possible to handle multiple buffs at same time.
remove afk (and most of them are holos or buffbots) and entertainers will begin to play again, before december (big hologrind) there where tons of atk entertainers around.
So the solution to the problem that combatants cant find someone to buff them and buff them sufficiently is to remove their ability to receive the ones they can get?
If this goes through the way you all want it, you will see less customers and chefs will make alot more money. The only time entertainers will be buffing is when they buff for raids, and those entertainers will most likely be in the guild that is raiding.
YET, if you fix the problem that made people "used to" buffbots and sometimes prefer them, THEN fight to get rid of them, your problems will be solved and more than likely wont arise again.
Zilod
Sat Jul 31, 2004 4:10 pm
#11
again entertainers began to stop to play cause afk (hologrinders at first)
now we have buffbots that are still the same problem, afk npcs that make entertainer profession pointless
wow 2 hours is really low time expecially compared to the 5 mins you spent to find an atk entertainer...
add entertainers to you friend list, learn what cantinas are populated when you play...
and you don't do the same thing for docs?
and how much time you spend in a doc line?
sometimes i have troubles to find a doc buffing.... i think we need docbots too 
also is not true that you need entertainers or you will be unbuffed... grab some brandy and you can solo elders and krayts
PistolDance
Sat Jul 31, 2004 4:10 pm
#12
Buffbots are the symptom of the problem, not the problem alone.
Buffbots were generally created by people that could not get entertainer buffs on their combat char.
I dont see a problem with the ability to attain entertainer buffs from an AFK person, as many times, it is impossible or too time consumingto find an ATK entertainer.
This uproar over buffbots isnt logical to me for two reasons:
1. They wouldnt be there if there were more entertainers on the server.
2. Solving a symptom of a problem does not solve the problem.
Why not focus on making the entertainer professions more enjoyable so there will be more entertainers there to buff instead of trying to stop people from playing the game the way they wish to?
I would just rather see the main problem so fervidly attacked,rather thanworking on the problems that arose because of it.
Padtai
Sat Jul 31, 2004 4:23 pm
#13
Buffbots are a problem in themselves, even though they may also be a symptom of something else.
I actually have asked a few buffbot owners why and have asked other combat players (which I consider myself to be) why. Some of the newest botowners have as their response "Because its the easiest way to make money." Many of those who use them don't even realize there is anyimpact on the entertainer profession.They simply haven't thoguht about it. Others know but don't care.
Perhaps initially some people set up bots out of a need they felt was not filled by live entertainers, but it has grown far beyond that into something that is just an exploit. You may as well try to tell me people used the shuttle repair exploit because there weren't enough garages or artisans sellling bikes. That wasn't why people did it, and it isn't why people are now using bots and running bots. There may be occasions when people feel they "have' to use a bot just as there were situations when they felt they "had" to use the shuttle repair exploit.
Giving entertainers more content would be like saying to artisans, forget about bikes. We'll get you another way to make money and we'll find another money sink for the economy. That's fine, the developers could have made that choice. They can make it with enertainers too, but I think the development time to do this would be more than fixing the immediate sympton that is making people feel like they would rather quit. Coughing often is a symptom of an underlyng illness, but you still take cough suppressant to make yourself feel better along with other medicines to attack the illness. There is nothing illogical about trying to ease the pain from a symptom while you attempt to address the cause as well, especially if the cause is not easily addressed.
Whatever solution the developers introduce, I hope it is one that removesany incentive to run an account AFK all day in order to compete with people actually trying to play.
Now I might get some entertainers mad at me for continuing to cloud up their boards in my quest to be a community elder. I just hope the things I have to say make sense and add a different perspective from a player who isn't social but isn't anti-social either.
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