Entertainer Archive

Thread: On Control: The Price We Pay to Name Our Price

PoetDancer
Sat Jul 30, 2005 7:55 pm
#1




We say we want more control over whom we entertain, but I am confused. Because ultimately, we have always had control over whom we entertain.


/Stopdance, and /Stopmusic


It sounds silly, I know, but there was actually a time in this game when /Stop was the only command we had available to us to regulate who we danced and played for. And by far, it remains the best control. Because not only does /Stop deny the cantina the mechanics we provide, but it also denies the most important thing we entertainers give: our dance, and our music.


I have seen board posts that make the claim that we are far from useless, because we provide amusement, and social interaction to the galaxies we serve. But I am confused.


Because if we truly believe that the most important thing we provide is amusement, and social interaction, then we would see no need for anything other than /Stop, because /Stop is the only thing that would really matter.


There was a time in this game when the very act of dancing or playing music was sufficient to fulfill all the obligations of this class toward the audience we served. While the things we provide players were said to be "passively applied," it only ever meant that the patron was the one with the responsibility to /watch, or /listen.


Ultimately, however, the final arbiter in determining who got a show, and who didn't, was we who performed. The beautiful thing about it was, by denying a show through /Stop, we also denied those things that flowed as a result of the show. When the mechanics became unavailable, so did the dance and music. When the dance and music became unavailable, so did the mechanics.


But within a matter of months, we received a different sort of control.


/Deny


It was a radical statement. I believe it to be a poor statement, and a poor control. Because it basically tells everyone in the game that the mechanics they gain by /watch are the only things that are important.


After all, /Deny does nothing to prevent a patron from watching our performance. They still get the real important things we give. But the only things they do not get are the unessential things, and the things any boring layabout can give. /Deny proved to everyone—including many of us—that the only raison d’erte to this class were the things /watched, and not the things watched.


Recently, we have received an even more unusual, and radical, control.


/CoverCharge


I used to think that this profession was compensated on the basis of our performance. But /CoverCharge was most unusual, because it gives an entertainer the option to get paid, before anyone is even in a position to think if it is boring, or not. It makes our "by-products" gained through a /watch the things that pull credits out of our patrons. The real things that separate us from the spammy dullards, however, are free, apparently. That is the ultimate message a command like /CoverCharge tells the subscribers these days. That only the mechanics are valuable, and the dancing or playing itself is unessential, and unimportant in the greater scheme of things.


Many complain that the culture behind entertainment, and the culture of players toward entertainment, has changed. The reason why, I think, is because actual entertainment is dirt cheap, and can be gained for free.


What has become rare, valuable, and controlled are those things that have nothing to do with entertainment: namely, the "by products" of our amusement. More controls over who can /watch our character, in my opinion; undermine our aims in far greater ways than help us.


Because the more we as entertainers start to rely on "targeted controls" that restrict the ability of a patron to /watch us, or /listen to us, the less our attempt to entertain the audience matters to the ones we entertain.


Therefore, it is no surprise that patrons have been flocking toward spammy musicians, dull dancers, "gimmick named" dancers, and "get on my high tipper list" entertainers. As long as the patrons are able to get all the rare, gated, and controlled things from them, everything else is essentially unimportant to encourage.


I predict, that if we ever get to the point where we have ultimate, authorized, and targeted controls over who can /watch us, or /listen to us, then whatever respect we gain from the patrons will not have much to do with how well we dance, or how effectively we amuse.


The only thing that will matter to patrons, and the players as a whole will be if we "push the button," or, "turn on the switch," or, "jump through the hoop." And it really won’t matter much to anyone if we are the most thrilling entertainers in the galaxy. If we don’t do as they say, they will see us as a waste of server space.


Entertainers. We have three active controls over who can /watch us, two more than we need, and I would add, two too many.


Why on Corellia do we need even more?


Because we have to understand that we pay a price each time we ask for more controls, and each time we use those controls. The price we pay is that dancing and playing music—in and of themselves—are no longer valuable, or good.


Instead, entertaining seems more like a tease, done by sadistic and manipulative prudes, who take pleasure in determining who actually is worthy of getting something out of the show, and who wastes their time.


As much as we try and forget those players who have awful things to say about us, I do think that, like all things, what they say about us is worthy of consideration, if only to understand why they harbour such animosity. Because for the longest time, I was absolutely baffled by the sort of crimes some in the player base accused us of committing against them. But at the height of the mind-buffing craze before the combat upgrade, it all started to make sense to me.


I believe that its not that they hated us in the time of mind buffs. Its that dancing and hearing music no longer makes intuitive sense to them. They see the dancer right in front of them dancing in the cantina, yet they are unable to simply /watch the dancer. They must ask for "permission" to /watch the dancer. Yet even if we don’t give them the permission, they can still watch the dancer as long as they wish. It just doesn’t make sense to their sensibilities. As a result, they are frustrated by it, and they lash out in anger at the ones that they deem to be responsible for the discrepancy. Namely, us.


Ultimately, if the developers want to redefine our system of giving out mechanics into something that is no longer intuitive, passive, and transparent, I cannot do much.


I would hope that they create a system whereby we can enhance our experience, and make /stop the only control we would even need, or would want.


I am smart enough to understand that no matter how much I try and stress this point, there are far too many of us that are content with throwing immersion out the window for the sake of more, "directable control methods," out of a belief that this is the only solution to habitual unattended activity.


While I think that providing a solution to habitual unattended activity is important, I think it is more important to ensure that what goes on in the cantinas makes sense to players, and that we don’t throw out all sensibility to achieve our own, particular ends.


What I beg us to do, entertainers, is no matter what, to prefer /stopdance, and /stopmusic, as our controls of choice in determining who we do and do not entertain.


I urge this, because sights and sounds do not need permission to see and hear when they are right in front of us in the real world, and these professions by their very nature depend on maintaining a "suspension of disbelief" in order for them to function correctly.


If we are ultimately to be in charge of our patron’s perception, then only we are to blame if players start to question the validity of these professions in the game. It is not in the guitar player’s power to turn on a listener’s ears. It is not in the ballerina’s power to close a patron’s eyes. But understand that control methods other than /Stop give us the power to do just these things, and we must always be careful with them.


For unless this very fundamental notion of basic sense perception is duplicated in SWG, these professions start to look more and more like contrived shams, rather than anything worthy of being preserved.

Message Edited by PoetDancer on 07-30-2005 10:07 PM



Madame Sirii Ajaan
August 2003-September 15, 2005
"There is a difference between being /watched and being WATCHED."
Chessack
Sat Jul 30, 2005 8:06 pm
#2

The main problem with /stopdance as your control method is when it lets one punk grief an entire room full of people. Of course, there are no more rooms full of people to heal or even buff, so maybe it's a moot point now. But there was a time when I wanted to stop because of one person, but doing so would've meant 5 other NICE people weren't getting healed.

It is in just such a case when /deny is most appropriate. Almost always, the person griefing everyone is NOT roleplaying, but just being, as a player, a general jack-a-ninny. I've always refused to perform for such individuals, but I would not feel right punishing the other patrons because of this one jerk. There is nothing they can do about it and they didn't start it or cause it... so why should they be punished?

Admittedly this is a very rare case, especailly with only inspiration buffs left to us, but in such a case I think /deny is entirely appropriate.

I do agree that in most other cases you want /stopdance and not /deny. But not if it means harming a room full of nice people (should it ever occur that there are any in the future -- rooms full that is) because of one imbecile.

C



=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Dejah Thoris
Dancer, Musician, Image Designer
Kor Spera, Corellia, Naritus
PoetDancer
Sat Jul 30, 2005 8:27 pm
#3

Fair enough, Chessak. We gained something, but I think we also lost something.


On my first server, I was taken care of, and the players around me made sure the cantina performers were not hassled. And this is because if a player was so repugnant to the point that entertainers were leaving, there would be nobody to amuse them, take notes on who was overt, inform others about who might be TEFed, not to mention nobody to heal BF.


And because the other five players genuinely saw it in their interest to keep the good entertainers in the cantinas, they would use peer pressure, and even a few duels, to maintain cantina decorum. Since we had no other recourse but to leave, and other players knew this, they understood that their interest in keeping me there was utterly dependent on the entertainers being comfortable there.


But with /deny, keeping cantina decorum was no longerthe community'sresponsibility. It was now my responsibility. And the patrons could now expect performers to perform for them, even in the presence of jerks, because we could simply /deny the jerk, and keep on entertaining for the five.


So did we gain something? I guess we did. But I think we also lost something. And that "something" is the notion that entertainers were the community's responsibility. With /deny, patrons could nowdemand performers to be around to heal them, no matter how bad the conditions were around us.



Madame Sirii Ajaan
August 2003-September 15, 2005
"There is a difference between being /watched and being WATCHED."
Jagii
Sat Jul 30, 2005 8:41 pm
#4

In the case ofpunks ruining it for others, it just seems much more intuitive (and roleplay-friendly) to kick out the problematic patrons. Of course thiswon'tfly with the current system's public cantinas, hotels, and theaters. I believe there are solutions however, but it would take a significant amount of work. One such solution would be to implement gigs, an idea that I've seen on the boards.


Either way, I never use /deny or /covercharge, which may suggest that I agree with Sirii's argument. But I'm not sure.


= Andrew

Chilastra.Palacek



"There's nothing to talk about, Becky. I'm ugly, boys don't like me, and that's it!!"
Aleyo
Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:38 am
#5

I would imagine what is desired by most people is finer control, rather than *more* control. As you said, /stopdance or /stopmusic is a very effective method of preventing someone from benefitting from a performance, both mechanically and in terms of the actual dance/music. However, as Chessack pointed out, it denies the performance to the entire room, not just to the one jerk who's ruining things for everybody.

Perhaps then, you'd be amenable to our finer controls (/denyservice and /covercharge) controlling not only our mechanics but also our performance? A /deny could make our avatar appear to be standing motionless to that one person, and they would be prevented from seeing our spatial or emotes. Covercharge could work the other way but backwards, though this one seems more problematic to that solution. This would be a way of mimicking the behavior of bouncers in a real club, who would kick out troublemakers or not let people into the club before they paid their cover charge. I think, of course, that real bouncers would be an even cooler implementation, but that seems a bit more difficult .

Basically it sucks when one jerk can ruin the experience for yourself and all the rest of the people watching you because you can't do anything to specifically get rid of them. /stopdance and /stopmusic don't handle that situation.




Scipionus Mentus
Master Musician, Master Entertainer, Master Dancer - Tempest
-I support ATK people and playstyles.

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes."

Schardour
Mon Aug 01, 2005 3:53 pm
#6






PoetDancer wrote:




I urge this, because sights and sounds do not need permission to see and hear when they are right in front of us in the real world, and these professions by their very nature depend on maintaining a "suspension of disbelief" in order for them to function correctly.






English please?


I can't believe I've lived to see the day that an essay's written on the evil nature of the /deny command....


/boggle


*flails fiercelyat the slash command hovering above him*

*runs screaming into the night, tugging furiously at his lekku*






T
IL KISMETA

lTlSlCl
A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable,
but more useful than a life spent doing nothing.
XzXzXzXzX
Also...Tayel [PLD]

ocko1337
Tue Aug 02, 2005 3:19 am
#7

I am torn between both arguements,

I agree on one level becuase as Poet says, in real life you cannot choose who listens or watches you, and to /stop is the only way for you to stop them watching/listening.

But also I think it is not fair to /stop when one person is acting a jerk, expecially if you have other, decent people watching you, as this will not enable them to recieve the benefits or be entertained by you.

But I do agree that when Entertainers were the community's responsibility, and they HAD to keep us happy for them to use our benefits, /covercharge and /deny would not be used at all. If we had an as big a role as before, and were as essential then players would have to keep us happy in the cantina's so we would stay, and if any jerk players did come, and Entertainers were threatening to leave, then they would force the jerk(s) to leave. But now /deny stops this as WE are Expected to entertain people and stop those who we dont see fit to recieve our benefits.



||*.SWG.r0xxx0rz.*||

-=[ch[A]v]=-
NJ62
Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:28 am
#8

Logically people should be able to watch and listen to you if they choose, as in real life. Realistically this makes for a poor game mechanic in terms of 1) our bargaining power 2) interaction 3) respect from the community and 4) AFK. An active system would have positive effects in contrast.

1. Bargaining power. It's a lot easier to demand a price when you control who uses your service and who does not. Many are reluctant to use /covercharge because it has no element of bargaining or taking into account the circumstances of the patron. Plus, psychologically, it is easier to charge for and pay for a service that is given rather than taken.

2. Interaction. Right now someone slinks in, watches, tips and slinks out. The covercharge feature does not aid this interaction. If someone had to ask for a buff, that would kick off the conversation.

3. The community has this view that they are entitled to the services of an entertainer because the services are "taken" rather than "given." The community would respect entertainers more if entertainers had more control over whom they served. Right now, unless an entertainer actively sets you on ignore, you can still obtain services from that entertainer even if you're the biggest jerk on the server. In an active system, entertainers do not have to be vigilant about denying you, but when you ask for services they can simply say no, same as any other profession.

4. AFK. If an active feature were implemented, bye bye AFK, because you could not provide service without being there.

Now, it makes for an awkward game mechanic to have to click on someone to dance for him or her, but I think the positive effects should be considered.



n'Jessi
former correspondent, former player

All your hawtpants are belong to me.
www.swgtailor.com
PLEASE REGISTER FOR THE SWGTAILOR OFFSITE FORUM (IMAGE DESIGNERS WELCOME TOO)

PoetDancer
Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:43 am
#9


That is fair enough. But if we are to go this route, then I really do not think it makes sense for us to have to require a patron to /watch us or /listen to us, and have to maintain that state for a given length of time. If we are to "give" something, then at least let us be able to actually give it, rather than have the side of the process we cannot control interfere with our efficacy. Let us do it in the manner of doctors: quick, and certain. Otherwise, the system will undermine the exact points that justify an active mechanic in your analysis.


1) Because unless the entertainer has complete control over what they give, they have no barganing power. How can I charge for an enhancement, when the patron can run away, ormess up the process before it is completed to their satisfaction? Psychologically speaking, patrons do not want to pay for the opportunity to watch for a buff. They pay to get the buff. It is why patrons were confused during the mind buff craze. They had no real incentive to buy buffs from us that we could not guarantee.


2) Without a quick and certain mechanic, everything after the request of "can u buff me" becomes a needless timesink to many patrons. So many times at the height of the mind buffing craze, a patron tipped me, asked me to buff them, and then went AFK after they /joined or I /setperformed. And frankly, how could I blame them? They really had no reason to care about anything else after I "turned on the switch." Far from conversation starters, "active authorizations" are coversation enders.


3) I do not think that an uneasy and uncertain combination of active and passive mechanics leads to greater respect, and any less of a sense of entitlement. In fact, I think the opposite is true. If we are dancing in a venue, patrons will always feel entitled to a buff. If we are not there to buff them, they are wondering why we are there? Moreover, patrons were always resentful of the time they had to spend there, and never quite understood why both we and they were subjected to such complications of time after our simple act of volition was granted by us. If a doctor is willing to buff, then they simply give the buff. If we are willing to buff, then we must "force the patron into /watching us for x amount of time," and this was interpreted as, "giving us a captive audience for x amount of time, while we force them into having conversations they do not wish to have." Rather than paying us, patrons thought we should be paying them for subjecting them to a timesink for our "selfish, emotionally needymotives."


4) An uncertain and slow process, combined with an active "switch" on our parts, only encourages actual play for that brief moment when a patron is asking for us to turn on the switch, and that moment when we activate the switch. After that point, either party can drop out, and leave it up to the other party to somehow guess their motives when they are away. I once had a patron ask for a buff during the mind buffing craze at Nym's Outpost on Lok. He tipped me 10,000 credits, I did the command to authorize his /watch, and then went AFK for 30 minutes. I was wondering if he would ever come back, so I left, because I had other things to do than simply wait until he came back. 30 minutes later, I get an angry /tell from him saying his buff now only lasted 1:30, rather than 2:00, and he wanted his 10,000 credits back for screwing up his plans.


I am not saying that the ability to grant a buff is wrong for us to want. But if we are to go that route, let us make it quick, and certain so we can be better buffers, our patrons can get better buffs, we can keep more of our earnings because of less confusion, and we can preserve the cantina space for those that want to be there, as opposed to those who feel like they are there wasting time against their will, paying homage to a process that feels contrived and forcedfrom all angles.


A passively granted mechanic eases tension, because the patron is in charge of getting what they need from us. An active mechanic eases tension, because a patron can simply "get it" with no strings attached, and we can simply "give it" with no strings attached. But a system that splits the responsibility between the two parties will never work the way we all need it to work.



Madame Sirii Ajaan
August 2003-September 15, 2005
"There is a difference between being /watched and being WATCHED."
akimo
Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:46 am
#10

very good arguments here. however, and here's my 2p, why not *really* have a system like real life: how about a cover charge at the door? we could all share the money brought in. and we could still get tips. and you could have cantina group leader, say, who would be able to kick out griefers like u can kick someone out of the group. the leader would be the effective bouncer. yeah, it could be abused but, then what doesn't? and if you make it only possible that an ent can be a cantina leader, i doubt you would get too much griefing in this case. the leader would also be able to kick out afk players. let em be afk outside.



Akimo Ofer, Explorer, Mos Eisley, Tatooine, Bria
Azem Ofer, Master Musician/Master Entertainer/Dancer, Mos Eisley, Tatooine, Ahazi
Ireu Tibe, Novice TK/Novice Doctor, Kaadara, Naboo, Chimaera
-------------------------------------------
To be great is to be misunderstood

NJ62
Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:54 am
#11

The problem with having a group leader able to keep people out is the potential for the group leader griefing people.



n'Jessi
former correspondent, former player

All your hawtpants are belong to me.
www.swgtailor.com
PLEASE REGISTER FOR THE SWGTAILOR OFFSITE FORUM (IMAGE DESIGNERS WELCOME TOO)

Echinacea
Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:58 pm
#12

Oh, screw it. Forget I said anything. I don't play the game right, apparently. No one else wants what I want out of it. I give up.

Message Edited by Echinacea on 08-03-2005 07:10 AM



Col. Tarot v Starsider
Elder Master Entertainer and AXIS M.I.L.F.
Mathom © Starsider
Entertainer
NJ62
Tue Aug 02, 2005 3:18 pm
#13

I think it's clear that we fall into three camps:

1. Want active buffing

2. Either way is fine

3. Do not want active buffing

Now, the question is how many entertainers fall into each category? I honestly would have no idea based on the responses here. *Pokes Lilo for a poll*

*Active buffing being defined as a player cannot benefit from your services unless you perform some action on that player, such as a radial command. Buffing would be able to benefit an unlimited number of clients at once.



n'Jessi
former correspondent, former player

All your hawtpants are belong to me.
www.swgtailor.com
PLEASE REGISTER FOR THE SWGTAILOR OFFSITE FORUM (IMAGE DESIGNERS WELCOME TOO)

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