Entertainer Archive
Thread: The Grading of AFK playing
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Red-Dwarf
Thu Jul 01, 2004 5:50 am
#1
As a discussion thread I think it might be worthwhile to understand the uses behind the AFK toggle.
1) Always ATK, never activate or leave the keyboard long enough to trigger auto-afk (logout if likely too): Very few players do this.
2) AFK as auto reply, activate AFK message as a "I'm in tell hell, send me an e-mail" or "I'm crafting and probably missed your tell, send me an e-mail" style comment. Used on occasions, mostly by crafting professions.
3) Occassional AFK, called away from the computer so short spells AFK. This is the designed use of the AFK and auto-AFK triggers.
4) AFK grinding, used to gain xp in various professions and can be used to gain low-level loot / dna / meat etc..
5) AFK profession, used by master to perform an ATK procedure using macros. Primarily used by performer and doctor professions. Commonly known as buffbots.
6) AFK advertising, used by mainly crafting/political professions. Should have been replaced by merchant droids (not enough of them and battery too short for hardened barker) and should be reduced by new "silence AFK" chat option.
7)3rd party AFK. Uses third party program to complete activity, used for grinding crafting professions. Banned by EULA.
For starters does anyone have any other uses?
Secondly, Which uses are allowable / desirable? For example I don't think we want to eliminate use 3 as it's not fair to force a character to log back in after being forced away by a phone call.
The key issues are 4,5,6. 7 is already banned so if spotted just use /report.
Item 6 is being tackled (the effectiveness to be evaluated once publish 9 dust settles)
Item 5 is where our current anger seems to lie.
Item 4 needs to be discussed. I for one admit to using this to get myself to master (yes, I try to minimise it but ultimately I want to reach master and it gets me there). Do I think the option should be there? Not sure. I can understand and accept the arguments for removing it, especially now hologrinding is about to cease.
Do you agree, should item 4 be disabled, or should it be left aswill affect entertainers and low level combat players?
Before we get the devs to change anything we need to be clear on what we want the result to be, or we'll end up as the DE's have with a compromise (good but could have been so much better, I'm an MDE on Chimera). We do not need a dev here until we know the direction we want to head.
Anyway, comment away, please leave flames to PM my mailbox to keep this thread clear forus to review.
Thanks
Senom
Groovymarlin
Thu Jul 01, 2004 1:06 pm
#2
PoetDancer wrote:
Item 4 is not as problematic. Because it is only a temporary condition. Item 5 is a method of manipulating the game environment beyond the constraints of playability.
Well, I feel that Item 4 is somewhat problematic. While I understand going AFK for short periods of time, the fact that people can and DO master the entertainer professions 100% AFK inherently devalues the profession. It also results in a lot of master dancers and musicians who are clueless when it comes to group dynamics, common etiquette in the entertaining community, and the professional knowledge that you only acquire by being at the keyboard and interacting with your fellow entertainers.
However, you are right Sirii that the AFK grinding is not as big a problem as the AFK master buffbots. Nowhere near as big a problem (especially with the hologrind over).
PoetDancer
Fri Jul 02, 2004 12:27 am
#3
Item 4 is not as problematic. Because it is only a temporary condition. Item 5 is a method of manipulating the game environment beyond the constraints of playability.
Vicotnik
Fri Jul 02, 2004 6:27 am
#4
I also see item 4 as a problem.
As long as it is possible, people will do it. Some people just want instant gratification, which is why they do stuff/grind professions completely AFK. That's not the core of the problem I see though, what I mean is that when the people who are not after the instant gratificationwould rather let their computer play the game for them, something must be wrong.Could it be thatit's not the game (or profession in this case) for them as it seems like they don't even enjoy playing it?
Maybe the professions could be made more fun, or maybe the long grinds could be shortened?
Anyway... item 1, 2 and 3 seems to be the only "proper" ways to afk to me. *shrugs*
Aleyo
Tue Jul 06, 2004 3:03 pm
#5
Vicotnik wrote:I also see item 4 as a problem.As long as it is possible, people will do it. Some people just want instant gratification, which is why they do stuff/grind professions completely AFK. That's not the core of the problem I see though, what I mean is that when the people who are not after the instant gratification would rather let their computer play the game for them, something must be wrong. Could it be that it's not the game (or profession in this case) for them as it seems like they don't even enjoy playing it?Maybe the professions could be made more fun, or maybe the long grinds could be shortened?Anyway... item 1, 2 and 3 seems to be the only "proper" ways to afk to me. *shrugs*
I am one who used item 4 to help myself get to master more quickly. However, at the same time, I spent a lot of time atk, learning the etiquette, tricks, fun of the profession. I think your point is a good one that the profession needs to be made more fun or with a shorter grind. I *do* have fun with what I have in the profession now, I want to be clear about that, but I think that the profession lacks a lot of variety in terms of in game mechanics (compare to the hundreds of species that combat characters encounter). This'll be helped some with the end of the hologrind, as more entertainers in the cantina will be willing to just have fun, let the bandflo's come, and not worry so much about the xp. But I still think atk people will feel they've deserved the ability to play virtuoso long before they reach the skillbox.
In summary, I do think item 4 is a problem, but I think it needs to be handled with positive reinforcement (make it more fun to be atk) rather than a punishment (less xp if you're afk).
Space_Gunny
Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:26 am
#6
I would have to agree with Miravlix on this one. I just started a entertainer (my 4th account) last Thursday. I am shooting for Dancer/Musician/Tailor with this alt. I had read all the posts here before I ever started this alt and understand the issues raised. I started out with the intention to try and stay ATK for the vast majority of the time. Boy did that hope die fast. While on any given night there have been 7 or more Entertainers/Dancers/Musicians in the Theed cantina, there has been a average of 1, yes you heard me right, 1 other atk person there.
I was really disappointed, after all the talk I had seen in this forum as well as the Dancer and Musician forums, about the evils of afk entertainers.
Beery
Wed Jul 07, 2004 4:27 am
#7
"does anyone have any other uses?"
How about:
AFK to discourage service requests. For example, when you're out in the wilderness and you've accidentallyleft your ID profession tag upyou get a variant ofthis message from a person who has tracked you down through the in-game search engine: "Hey!I need you to change my stats."
That's whenmy AFK tag goes up.
Beery
Wed Jul 07, 2004 4:32 am
#8
"I started out with the intention to try and stay ATK for the vast majority of the time. Boy did that hope die fast. While on any given night there have been 7 or more Entertainers/Dancers/Musicians in the Theed cantina, there has been a average of 1, yes you heard me right, 1 other atk person there. "
So you're saying that you go AFK because you don't like the fact that a majority of players are AFK??? Where is the logic in that? I mean I've heard the saying 'If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.' But I've never heard 'If you don't like 'em, join 'em' before.
Space_Gunny
Wed Jul 07, 2004 4:50 am
#9
Didn't mean to give you that perception. I finally decided to afk because after hours of being there by myself talking to the walls I lost the desire to keep it up. If there had been some sort of socialization going on things might have been different. But things just lose their appeal after hours of this "isolation".
Beery
Wed Jul 07, 2004 5:17 am
#10
"when the people who are not after the instant gratificationwould rather let their computer play the game for them, something must be wrong."
Well, there's nothing 'wrong'. I mean if you're forced to be away due to the need for sleep, or having to go to work, and if there's a big unfilled skill box beckoning you, it's hard for even the most committed player to resist setting up a macro to get ahead. I mean it's not as if it's going to cut down on your game time. After you get that box filled, you're still going to be able to devote all your free time to the game. I mean from the perspective of commitment to playing the game,where's the harm?
That is the logic, and during slow times - i.e. in the early morning from 2am to 6amwhen folks are generally fast asleep, I find it hard to findfault withthat. Even during busy hours it's hard to really see what the problem is in terms of social play. I mean if theAFKers weren't there, it's not like these players would be actively playing. They would justshut down their computer, leaving the cantina to the one or two ATK players who are there. So in terms of the social aspect, acantina populated by 2 ATK players and8 AFK players is no different than a cantina populated only by thetwo ATK players.
The only negatives are the fact thatAFKers tend todraw sometips away from ATK players, and the fact that combat professionals claim to despise us for being (in their words)an "AFK profession". This is ironic, because firstly, combat professionals (especially the leet dudez)aren't above a bit of AFK levelling themselves (as we've clearlyseen during the holo-grind). Manyare the times I've seen people AFK-camping respawn points with a nice recursiveshooting macroto level up. Secondly, if combat folks despise AFKers so much, why do they tip AFK buffbots? I mean there's a disconnect there.
I'm not arguing that AFKers are a good thing. Clearly they give combat professionals an excuse not to pay for services, and to disrespect non-combat professions. For that alone they should be condemned - nearly as much as we should condemn the combat-orientated professionals for not being able (or willing)to see past the AFKers to the real players who are in the cantinas. In my opinion, combat professionals are using the convenient excuse that AFKers provide them, to rationalize their ownmiserly and disrespectfulconduct.
I think we are getting caught up in a false notion bred from the combat professionals' pretended scorn regarding AFKers. Now don't get me wrong. I would prefer that all entertainers were ATK. Butunless AFKers are being annoying - i.e. spamming tip requests etc. I find it hard to see the realharm they do. It is the customers who cause the real harm. They are the ones who cite AFKers as a reason not to tip - and no one expects anyone to tip an AFKer. The customersare the ones who oftencome into a cantina with scornful remarks about 'everyone being AFK' - even before they check to make sure- and often they're wrong. It's the customers who oftentreat ALL entertainers like dirt, demanding heals and buffsand refusing to even say 'thank you' when they get them. It'sour customers who are all over our forums saying that their professions are more important than ours, and telling us to stop asking the developers to fix our profession.
Our real problem is not AFK macroing. It is that a large proportion of our customers have no respect for us, or for the service we provide.Even if AFK macroingwere tosomehow bestopped, many of our customers would stillfind some other reason totreat us with contempt.
Miravlix
Wed Jul 07, 2004 12:47 pm
#11
Groovymarlin wrote:
PoetDancer wrote:Item 4 is not as problematic. Because it is only a temporary condition. Item 5 is a method of manipulating the game environment beyond the constraints of playability.Well, I feel that Item 4 is somewhat problematic. While I understand going AFK for short periods of time, the fact that people can and DO master the entertainer professions 100% AFK inherently devalues the profession. It also results in a lot of master dancers and musicians who are clueless when it comes to group dynamics, common etiquette in the entertaining community, and the professional knowledge that you only acquire by being at the keyboard and interacting with your fellow entertainers.
However, you are right Sirii that the AFK grinding is not as big a problem as the AFK master buffbots. Nowhere near as big a problem (especially with the hologrind over).
Apparently you haven't tried working an entertainer lately.
I've been all over and I always end up falling asleep on the keyboard, because there is no customer or fellow entertainer activity. There is only so much times one bothers to chat and get ignored before it becomes a way of life instead.
So the supposed 'social' entertainer community doesn't exist on any server I've tried todo entertainers on.
liquidken420
Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:33 pm
#12
Regarding #4, the problem is, there is little reason to NOT become a Master as quickly as possible. I mean, if you're not a Master Crafter, then your items are pretty much useless. Non-Master Doc Buffs are pretty weak, and mind/bf healing from Non-Master Musician/Dancers takes forever, and the lower level songs sound like @$$.
Nobody wants to feel like a gimp, but for most profs, you simply WILL BE a gimp until you hit Master. In other words, the devs need to give us a good reason NOT to be /afk-grinding.
BTW, I'm a former Master Musician, it took me something like a month to hit Master, and I was always macro'ing -- but non-afk at least 50% of the time--mostly when i was at work. This may have been during holo-grinding-hell, but there were peeps to talk to only about half the time. During off-peak hours, there were few peeps to talk to, so having /afk "buffbots" or "healbots" is almost a necessity for peeps who need some heals at 4am. Unless...YOU want to be up at 4am healing peeps....didn't think so.
Nobody wants to feel like a gimp, but for most profs, you simply WILL BE a gimp until you hit Master. In other words, the devs need to give us a good reason NOT to be /afk-grinding.
BTW, I'm a former Master Musician, it took me something like a month to hit Master, and I was always macro'ing -- but non-afk at least 50% of the time--mostly when i was at work. This may have been during holo-grinding-hell, but there were peeps to talk to only about half the time. During off-peak hours, there were few peeps to talk to, so having /afk "buffbots" or "healbots" is almost a necessity for peeps who need some heals at 4am. Unless...YOU want to be up at 4am healing peeps....didn't think so.
Nacoa
Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:07 pm
#13
#7, while banned, is nearly impossible to detect. Someone from SOE would have to do something like measure your typing speed, or detect the mouse jumpped instead of slid across the screen. Even then it's pretty trivial to make the out-of-game macro program just type slower or move the mouse slower.
So, if you eliminate #4 from the game, be ready for it to be replaced with #7.
So, if you eliminate #4 from the game, be ready for it to be replaced with #7.
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