Entertainer Archive
Thread: BuffBots, are they really the problem?
Krupskaya wrote:
You unabashedly admit that you have no confidence in the ability of SWG players to make intelligent, rational choices, and then seem outraged when they no longer patronize you?
Drygo wrote:
Krupskaya wrote:
.
For entertainers, your argument essentially is saying that the needs of all the combat professions should be allowed to Nerf the entertainer profession. Because that is essentially what Buffbots are. They are a nerf for entertainers. Not only that, but they are griefing ATK entertainers, by killing the entertainer style of play.
You have no monopoly on the Entertainer lifestyle. Nor is anyone "killing" your style of play by choosing to roll a BuffBot. This is not a single-person game, where the community is a fabrication conjured up for your convenience. Players make choices as to who they will patronize, and this constant ATK Entertainer "angst" about the creeping evil of maleficent BuffBots merely evinces a disdain for the free market environment where players are free to make these choices. It is exactly this sort of self-righteous arrogance which has made the community at-large so unsympathetic to ATK Entertainer concerns.
First, you cannot consider being afk a playstyle, because it is not playing. Buffbots are not a playstyle. They are a completely afk automation. It is also not a free market competition concept. There is no possible way that a live human being can compete with a buffbot. It's completely unbalanced. And, yes, they ARE killing my style of "actually playing" because they are making my services economically unviable. Please don't make me explain why again. Read through this entire thread and various others and you will see exactly how and why Buffbots are killing the economically viability of people who actually play the game as entertainers. It is akin to kill stealing. Whether or not the buffbot is purposely trying to treat us with derision is not the point. The point is, by leaving an afk automaton out 23/7 they are ruining our economic viability, with so called "competition" that can never be matched by someone who actually plays their avatar. And, please, save it with the "arrogance" spiel. You are just as arrogant if not moreso by claiming that your $15 a month allows you to denigrate and ruin an entire playstyle. Get off that high horse before it throws you off, please.
By the same virtue, a human cannot compete with an assembly line. Hand-crafting is no match for mechanical production in cost-effectiveness and, often, quality. Pen and paper cannot compete with calculators. Solving differential equations in one's head cannot compete with the processing power of supercomputers. But payment is furnished not based on the effort that went into providing a service, butbased on the quality of the service provided. According to your rationale, a top-of-the-line computer of machine-production is worth less than sandals stitched together by a remote peasant to adorn the feet of his family. Your argument is consequently moot. Moreover, you reiterate that the practice is "griefing" as it is akin to "kill stealing". This is nonsense, and claiming such merely evinces that you draw no line between an inanimate, non-sentient collection of pixels spawned to be pharmed by a player and the actual, live human beings controlling players. In your view, both are merely "possessions" and treatment thereof is wholely analogous. Having esteemed players "possessions", you claim to be solely entitled to enjoy them because you put in more effort than an AFK-er; we have already determined, however, that it is the quality and not the human labor that determines the value of an item in a commodities market.
And then, after thoughtlessly consigning the entire playerbase to being mere "possessions" for your enjoyment, you lambast me for lamenting your "arrogance". Some introspection, please.
No. That's exactly wrong. There's a difference between competition and usurpation, and you don't need an Economics degree to discern it. By your rationale, Starbucks should be immediately closed because it's relatively inexpensive, cheap provision of needed goods undercuts local retailers. Griefingsignifies aplaystyle conceived with the exclusive intent of damaging the well-being of others, and it is (expectedly) arrogant beyond belief to assume that BuffBots are created for the exclusive purpose of detracting from your experience. Yet simply because BuffBots undercut you, it is assumed they are "griefing". Undercutting is not an anti-competitive trade practice IRL -- in fact, it is the foundation of a market economy. Collusion, however, constitutes the artificial regimentation of supply in order to keep prices high and disadvantage the consumer. And that is illegal.
Again, you cannot *possibly* be serious about comparing in game economics to real world economics. First, as I said up above, a person who plays completely at the keyboard can never compete with someone who plays away from the keyboard. It's not like we are all sitting in this virtual world all day long playing the game. It's ridiculous to assume that you can translate a real world 24/7 model to a game model where those who actually play the game cannot possibly be playing 24/7 but an afk buffbot can. Starbucks cannot be compared to an afk buffbot. I played during a time when I had *real* competition in the Cantinas. People that were there at the same time I was. That competition was healthy. Sometimes I won, sometimes I lost. It's those people who helped me to be better at what I was because I learned from them. That's competition. Buffbots have usurped because they are there 23/7, something which a live player can *never* compete with. The buffbots are more akin to a monopoly, which is also illegal. (Not that I agree with your comparison to real life economics here, but if that's what you're going for I thought I'd bring it up.)
They can, and they do compete. The mere fact that you feel dispossessed because your "possessions" (i.e. the players) choose to go elsewhere does not contradict the very real fact that thousands of ATK Entertainers are prospering. Your every post commodifying the consumer, however, evinces a deep disrespect for their personal choice that only bolsters the creation of BuffBots. Moreover, you have nothing to defeat the "Starbucks" analogy but platitudes and "woe is me, it was once better" nostalgia. And you have nothing to classify the competition as "unfair" other than that you subscribe to the very flawed concept that effort and not quality should determine market value and, consequently, that a CDEF painstakingly produced by a Novice Weaponsmith should be worth more than a T-21 quickly output by a Master Weaponsmith on a factory run. Then you claim that buffbots are monopolistic solely because they are always available. I know plenty of chain-stores that are open 24/7 by virtue of rotating staff. Would you shut them down, too? What you're really claiming is that consumers who need buffs at an hour when you are not available should, frankly, shut up and go away. If a BuffBot is there to provide a service that you cannot, you would nonetheless banish the BuffBot and screw the consumer. Which, after all, you have already classified as your "possession".
In essence, you're using overwrought, emotional complaints about "griefing" to replace a free-market with a command-and-control economy, classifying competition as a "nerf" while suggesting collusion as a better alternative. In any serious enterprise, such complaints would earn nothing but prolonged, hysterical laughter.
Again, the idea that this in-game economy where people who actually play cannot be there 23/7 can be compared to real world economy in this respect is just as laughable. We're coming from two differen premises here. You consider buffbots to be a playstyle. I don't. You expect that people who actually play the game should be able to directly compete with an afk 23/7 free buffbot who does both dancer/musician buffs. I don't. That's an absolutely ridiculous notion. I'm sorry to break it to you, but this isn't competition or an equal playing field. As said by others, the only way to compete against a buffbot is to BE a buffbot. The buffbot is just as guilty of removing our playstyle as you claim we are of trying to remove the buffbots "playstyle," by their mere existence. There's absolutely no way that both can coexist. It's incredulous to me that you consider this to be competition and want to equate it with a real life 24/7 model that we all live in.
This is just restatement of the non-point you just made. Consumers patronize services based on quality, not on effort. I will not pay $500 for delapidated, shoddy loafers that just happened to be made by hand. And as the Developers have openly stated that they wanted this to be a "player-controlled", market economy -- namely, exactly what we currently enjoy in the United States -- your protestations otherwise are ludicrous. So then you insist that mere competition is akin to a jihad that can permit no coexistence, and the fact that someone undercuts you demands their immediate removal from the SWG Galaxy. Their mere existence is an offense to your vanity.
And here lies the foundation of all the anti-BuffBot hysteria rampant in the ATK Entertainer community: you do not trust SWG players to make a responsible choice as to whom they will patronize. Consequently, you militate for that choice to be removed to entitle you to the sole "ownership" of the aforementioned players. We are not a commodity, and your every harangue against our free agency will undermine your business and lead to the creation of more BuffBots.
Why don't we trust them? Again, do I have to repeat myself? I don't trust them to make the responsible choice because they haven't. I have said over and over how I go into Cantinas to sell my services and nobody comes to me, they make a beeline for the buffbot. It's gotten worse and worse with time, for me and every other live entertainer. People such as yourself have proven time and again, through your actions in game, and your words here, that you value buffbots over the live player. And, since we, the live players, are actually *playing* then it's logical that our "playstyle" needs attention more than the buffbot who, purposely or not, is systematically decimating and ruining the entertainer playstyle and economy. Do you really think the devs *want* a game where people are afk all the time? I don't. I think they want a game where people are actually playing the professions that they created, including entertainer. The only problem is that they don't know how to make it happen without selfish whiny players such as yourself getting up in arms that they're nerfing your ability to be as uber as possible at the drop of a hat and on demand.
Many consumers have chosen to patronize ATK Entertainers. Perhaps you are merely too incompetent to attract them, as they certainly do exist. I am one of them, and have tipped hundreds of thousands of credits to various ATK Entertainers over my SWG career. It is also true that fewer consumers are choosing to patronize ATK Entertainers daily, and that more BuffBots are cropping up as we speak. Naturally, you look for explanation in blaming others. Why improve when you can victimize yourself and parade around in tragicomical woe, lamenting the evil players who have created BuffBots and deprived you of your livlihood? I'm certain I don't have to point out the myriad of historical examples of groups of disenchanted people doing exactly what you have, namely, blaming a suspect class for their own inadequacies. I, personally, am loath to patronize ATK Entertainers with this incessant, omnipresent whining. I don't like offering my hard-earned credits to chronic complainers who then jet off to the forums to deride me as some stupid brute who doesn't deserve the luxury of deciding where my money goes.
And then you have the gall to accuse me of being "selfish" and "whiny" -- while YOU are openlyclamoring for the destruction of thousands of player identities!
The only problem is that they don't know how to make it happen without selfish whiny players such as yourself getting up in arms that they're nerfing your ability to be as uber as possible at the drop of a hat and on demand.
I have NEVER used a BuffBot, yet you blithely claim otherwise and accuse me of selfishness and wanting to be "as uber as possible". Once again, your vapid counterarguments, horrid analogies and general lack of argumentative skills brook no tactic other than tawdry, stupid personal attacks. I have ALWAYS relied on ATK Entertainers. And after every inane, rambling diatribe like yours, I, and many other players, are more reluctant to do so.
So, by all means, go on and shoot yourself in the cranium with your arrogance, baseless claims and vile slander of the entire playerbase as being nothing greater than your "possession", to be used and abused at your whim. You are destroying your own profession. Not mine.
Drygo wrote:
In every game, the developers have often said that only about 1-2% of the playerbase actually reads and actively posts to these boards. That's a very small percentage of people who actually have any clue whatsoever that entertainers don't trust them to make reasonable choices. I can tell you, however, for the other 98% of the people who have no idea about this fact, they still aren't patronizing us. They have no idea about our supposed "arrogance." Yet for some reason they continue to make beelines for the free 23/7 dual dancer/musican buffbots, completely ignoring the live players. It seems fairly obvious to me why they do so, and it has nothing at all to do with our distrust. Our distrust happened *after* we noticed they all made irresponsible choices. And, conditioning that this is how it's "supposed" to be makes this happen in ever increasing frequency.
And, really, I shouldn't say all, because some players are wonderful and responsible and supportive, but they're in a minority.
Krupskaya wrote:
By the same virtue, a human cannot compete with an assembly line. Hand-crafting is no match for mechanical production in cost-effectiveness and, often, quality. Pen and paper cannot compete with calculators. Solving differential equations in one's head cannot compete with the processing power of supercomputers. But payment is furnished not based on the effort that went into providing a service, butbased on the quality of the service provided.
AnakinSWG wrote:
Are you serious?
Do you claim rational and intelligent choicesfor all players in a game fraught with competition?
Most decisions made by players in SWG are made on the basis of "how much can I get for the least possible input."
We're not outraged at the players for making that choice. We're outraged at the ability of afk macroing to take them from people who actually have the intention of playing the game. What good is an entertainer without credits? They'll never be able to buff a person and be driven promptly from the market. In fact, many already have. It's sad, but it's true. How can people not see this?
Rest assured Krupskaya, that I do not have alack of skills when it comes to arguing a point. I can debate with the best of them. You have been nothing but rude, arrogant, and selfish. Rest assured, also, that I do have counterpoints for every single thing that you have said here. And, rest assured that your analogy to a real world market is fraught with false arguments and suppositions that are not based on fact and do not carry over into the gaming model.
But, rest assured, that I simply don't have the time or desire to "argue" with someone as arrogant and insulting as yourself and that this is by personal choice and not for lack of an argument. There's some things I need to take care of in real life, as well as another game I'd like to play. I don't want to spend all day arguing with you when I could have some actual fun. Bad enough I was up until 4 in the morning arguing with your friend Milandra.
Besides, someone who has such strongly insulting and trolling (albeit by the use of a false analogy) viewpoints is likely to not have their minds changed or listen to reason.
Enjoy.
Message Edited by Drygo on 08-01-2004 11:59 AM
AnakinSWG wrote:
Krupskaya wrote:
By the same virtue, a human cannot compete with an assembly line. Hand-crafting is no match for mechanical production in cost-effectiveness and, often, quality. Pen and paper cannot compete with calculators. Solving differential equations in one's head cannot compete with the processing power of supercomputers. But payment is furnished not based on the effort that went into providing a service, butbased on the quality of the service provided.
I'm sorry, but you're wrong in applying this to our profession within the game environment. Prices for a live buff have not been increased because of the novelty of these services. If you're stating that a live buff is of a higher quality than that provided by a buffbot, you fail to realize that the perceived value, according to the community, is no greater. It's highly subjective. There is nothing that you can say to convince me of any possible means of differentiating ones live buffs from those of a buffbot. The only difference is social in nature. The value of that social interaction is not present, as it can be found anywhere in the game. One doesn't pay for guildchat (directly). There is no need to pay for social interaction.
The only other possible aim for this line of argument is to state that buffbots are the endgame for a real, dedicated mind buff-providing entertainer.
Please...this is ridiculous.
Krupskaya wrote:
Quite the contrary. I've literally walked through Cantinas in-game and seen furious ATK Entertainers personally attacking AFK BuffBots, sending pets to stand atop them, spamming them with rude emotes and swear words. This is merely a reflection of the same arrogant intransigence I see daily on the forums. I don't use BuffBots and I don't particularly want to be "uber". But I have been accused of both on this thread -- unsubstantiated allegations, launched of hatred -- simply because I defended the right of the playerbase to retain a choice. When an impartial observer enters a discussion of an issue implicating in-game mechanics only to be bombarded with lies, something is clearly amiss. And the same variety of viciousness is hardly confined to these forums.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
You walk into a forum and claim that our opinions are based on lies. And you're different how? Our allegations are far from unsubstatiated. The issues have been discussed for many months. Complaints have been lodged by members of our community wholly unaffected by our forums. Dancers and Musicians ingame have expressed their rage about buffbots taking up shop in their homes, yet they have no idea that these forums exist. Even NON-ENTERTAINERS often express their sorrow for our situation and wish us well in our fight. Somehow, this seems to be more of an excuse than anything else, Krupskaya. You and others want your buffbots to be available. I don't care if you prefer live entertainment. You still want them to be there for you 23/7. You are NO different from others, regardless of the amount you tip a live entertainer. Tell me why I should believe otherwise.
Tiaga wrote:
Buffs are not hard to find if people actually LOOK. As a master dancer wearing a title, I've not gotten a single tell asking for a buff in a long time.
Same here. Always keep my master dancer title up, nobody ever asks. Quite different from those days where I would step out of the Coronet starport and be bombarded with them.
Drygo wrote:
Believe me, most of us on these forums have asked for enhancements to entertaining, to make things more fun to play. While I personally have a lot of fun just entertaining, because I believe that part of our profession works very well already, I have still contributed to those threads and discussions. But, given the state of our profession right now, do you honestly think that more fun things to do while entertaining is going to make entertainers go, en masse, into the Cantinas to be available to buff people?
Perhaps not "en masse" but hopefully enough to have one of each profession there to buff people. Why shouldnt entertainer be as fun to play as a doc? Why shouldnt it be fun enough where you can find buffs easily?
Do you honestly think that entertainers who keep attempting to go into the Cantinas just to be ignored because buffbots are there are going to keep going back no matter how fun it is?
Like I said before, first focus on the problem that caused the bots then focus on the problem of bots. Everyone wins.
I am not aiming for just the entertainers that left the profession to come back, I think adding more content to the profession will also create more entertainers.
Fix the problem of the buffbots, and we will be back even if we have no enhancements. It makes much more sense to get rid of buffbots, then work on the "fun" factor for retention and attraction purposes.
How so? It wasnt fun enough for entertainers to stay in the cantina supplying buffs, why will that change without adding content? Just because the bots are gone and you want to make a point?
Tiaga wrote:
Buffs are not hard to find if people actually LOOK. As a master dancer wearing a title, I've not gotten a single tell asking for a buff in a long time.
PistolDance wrote:
Zilod wrote:
i agree 100% with that
but also i push it a bit more...
buffbots are afkers, so is not that they are just a "response" by players for lack of buffs, they are also the first cause that make not me play
AH! I get your point
you really think that all of these people simply gave it up and doesn't like anymore the entertainer profession? or are them more like me that had their fun ruined by afkers (holos or buffbots)?
I think again, it was both
But if you fix the afk problem before you fix the content problem there will be very few people to buff.
So why not fix the content first? Who knows, maybe some of the bots will actually like playing with new content?
Message Edited by PistolDance on 07-31-2004 11:50 PM
ehhh the rancor example was more explaining than my crappy english toughts 
ok now back to the issue...
in your opinion
more content -> more entertainer will play -> less need of buffbots -> people will stop to make buffbots as no more "requested"
more content -> more entertainers
(i speak about music as is my main 'entertainer profession' so i have more knowledge about it)
people atm are not using entertainer content at all, if you look at cantinas is full of afkers groups that play different songs or buffbots that play the same one with the same instument for around 3 mins.
they are exploring actual content?
no... here a nice stoy...
i was in the ID tent playing for people awaiting their stat migration turn...
a guy started to listen to me and really liked that, so i begin to ask him if he had some fav song... he doesn't knew them so i started to play them asking what he wanted to hear... after i think an hour he told me something like "wow you have inspired me i want to be a master entertainer!"
the next day when i logged i found him in cantina, he was a bit upset cause there where all afk groups and asked me some advice to play his song better.
we started to play togather and after some time a m dancer joined us... we where still ignored by all other zombie players (both entertainers and customers) but we had fun playing togather and chatting a bit.
this to say that most players doesn't know the potential of an entertainer... for many the actual content is new they don't need to have more, they just need to know what they can do and how much it can be fun to play an entertainer.
i also don't think that it will really appeal entertainers who left cause lack of content... sure maybe they will go back to try the new stuff but after a month spent playing 2-3 new songs it will get old again and they will leave... i don't think that these players can be really considered 'full time entertainers' or better i don't think they see the real content of entertainer... who is not just to play 5-10-20 songs, is to socialize and have fun with other people, is to jam with other musician i can play solo 200songs, but really a jemming session is a lot more fun and satisfying and is something new everytimes.
i also don't think that most of buffbots players will rediscover entertainers.
they have not done it in the past, and look at them... they just enter in cantina and go afk they don't even play a bit with other entertainers or vary the music they made... all of our countent they are interested in are our buff.
all of this to say that in my opinion what prevent entertainer (old ones to return and new ones to join) is not lack of content, is mostly the bad cantina situation and to be completelly useless (cause afk/buffbots)
more entertainers -> less buffbots
true for people that make buffbots to help friends, but not for people who do it for money... they will still park their buffbots in the center (or in front of the doors) of the cantina and catalyze the customers attention... and to do that just 1 buffbot is needed for cantina and ruin the game for a lot of entertainers
my option is
no more buffbots -> more need of entertainers -> more entertainers -> more content to add fun to live players
no more buffbots/afkers -> better atmosphere in cantinas -> real entertainer that can play togather -> more fun
i really think that if entertainers where more in need and maybe a bit profitable more peple will try them as a viable profession.
no more afkers will also make many old player return, as the cantina will be again fun places and musicians/dancers will be able again to 'explore' their content and play togather
and about that guy of the story... i haven't met him anymore, if there where no afkers in cantina i'm sure he will still be an entertainer jamming with other musicians, but as it is now, with no other players to play with i'm not too sure that he caontined entertainer career.