Entertainer Archive
Thread: BuffBots, are they really the problem?
PistolDance wrote:
Drygo wrote:
Believe me, most of us on these forums have asked for enhancements to entertaining, to make things more fun to play. While I personally have a lot of fun just entertaining, because I believe that part of our profession works very well already, I have still contributed to those threads and discussions. But, given the state of our profession right now, do you honestly think that more fun things to do while entertaining is going to make entertainers go, en masse, into the Cantinas to be available to buff people?
Perhaps not "en masse" but hopefully enough to have one of each profession there to buff people. Why shouldnt entertainer be as fun to play as a doc? Why shouldnt it be fun enough where you can find buffs easily?
Do you honestly think that entertainers who keep attempting to go into the Cantinas just to be ignored because buffbots are there are going to keep going back no matter how fun it is?
Like I said before, first focus on the problem that caused the bots then focus on the problem of bots. Everyone wins.
I am not aiming for just the entertainers that left the profession to come back, I think adding more content to the profession will also create more entertainers.
Fix the problem of the buffbots, and we will be back even if we have no enhancements. It makes much more sense to get rid of buffbots, then work on the "fun" factor for retention and attraction purposes.
How so? It wasnt fun enough for entertainers to stay in the cantina supplying buffs, why will that change without adding content? Just because the bots are gone and you want to make a point?
We're obviously looking at this from two different perspectives. In an earlier post you said, "don't make it all about you." So, I'm going to tell you the same thing. You may have left or know others who left because of lack of content. To you, and in your circles, that may appear that was the determining factor. But, you must know, that is not the only factor, even if you can't admit (because that's not what it appears to you) that it was a factor for the minority of entertainers.
From my perspective, I know a lot of long time entertainers, tended to hang out with the people who thought entertaining was loads of fun. I can't say I personally know one person from the game that I'veinteracted withwho left entertaining because it wasn't fun. Everybody I know that left entertaining was because of afk, buffbotting, and I had one person tell me she left because she couldn't buff herself and feels like we should be able to do that. I agree with her. But my point is, from my perspective, myself, and everyone that I personally know who has dropped entertaining, was solely and strictly due to afk and botting. And, the vast majority of people who have posted on theseboards saying they dropped or left the game was because of afk and botting and had nothing to do with lack of content. Not all, mind you, since you yourself and others have said it was due to lack of content. But, most, from what I've seen...afk and buffbots.
Who's perspective is right here? We'll probably never know. But, because we're looking at this from two obviously different experiences, we're never going to agree. However, from where I'm standing, it's extraordinarily clear to me, that the problem--not just the symptom--but the unequivocal problem with our profession is the afk macro system and buffbots. And, that problem needs to be solved for us to have any hope of returning to the Cantinas, and retaining the people that we already have.
grrr stupid thing ate my super huge post...
Pretty much I'll do the quick short version When I started my top 5 list would have looked like this
1. Bug Fixes.
2. Content (new/improved)
3. Ent Quests (Ties into 2)
4. Unattended Playing/afk/macros
5. Money (Ties into 3)
Now it’s like this:
1. Unattended Play/Bots/macro system
2. Bug Fixes
3 Content
4. Ent Quests
5. Money (I ended up having to sell resources so I could try and buy anything at all)
I had lists of Clients. As people left the game/server it got harder and harder to replace those people on my list. I'm down to maybe 10 people right now for buffing and I haven't seen 4 of them on in months. And most of the ones I do see on no longer even ask me about buffs. They instead ask me when I'm going to drop my 3 Profs and pick up combat skills so I can join them.
The majority of players picking up Entertainer skills to play as their profs are learning how to play from Bots, And AFKers that spam non-stop. They have no fun in such an environment so they go afk and figure that once they are a Master they will have more fun because they can get out of the cantina. Or they just drop it.
People not playing our profs far outnumber those of us that do play them.
Cantinas used to be the central hub for everything in SWG and even though it forced interaction and being social it worked. Now it is something that is hated and despised. As its only use now is buffs and bf healing. Or your chance to grab something to eat or check the forums.
How is adding content for Entertainers NOW going to fix anything?
What if it takes a year for them to add any real game changing content to Entertainers?
To answer your questions no Bots didn't start being the problem. .... Let me give a quick example...
You get a small cut on your foot. Nothing much it doesn't really bother you at first. After a week you’re limping a little bit and it hurts a bit more. Still not affecting your ability to run and play and work or do anything just uncomfortable.
A week later it hurts and you’re limping more but you can ignore it and you keep going.
Week after you have to take aspirin to ignore it. It gets to the point where can barely walk on it and it's affecting everything you do.
So you decide to take a look at it. You have Gangrene and it's spreading up your leg.
At this point is buying new sandals paint your toenails a new great color and slapping a cute little band aid on going to do anything at all to really help ? No. Right now we either need to cut it off so we can live or we need massive amounts of Anti-biotic and some doctor intensive care in a hospital. Once we get that problem cured. Then we can look at doing Physical Therapy to get the leg back up to where it once was. And hopefully along the way we can get some new shoes. And some anklet bracelets and pretty polish.
If any of that makes any sense at all I would be shocked.
Zilod wrote:
in your opinion
more content -> more entertainer will play -> less need of buffbots -> remove buffbots from game
Yes they will stop making buffbots, but there should also be something done about buffbots at this point. I put mine in for you
people atm are not using entertainer content at all, if you look at cantinas is full of afkers groups that play different songs or buffbots that play the same one with the same instument for around 3 mins.
They are still hologrinding, I assume this will end with the Jedi revamp
I had an awesome time doing musician, I even liked grouping with small groups who were there to play early in the morning because we would flourish back and fourth
I've had people walk into the Theed cantina, shout (Because for some reason they thought the entertainers in front of them might not hear, I guess) that they are looking for a buff.. I'll say I can buff them, they shout a few more times, then leave.
It's been over a year since I've gotten a tell asking for a buff when I wasn't already in the cantina.
People don't look. You know why? Well, consider this...
A good number of the masters they will find currently are just going to be AFK. No point sending a tell to someone AFK. They probably really quickly learned not to bother sending tells. There is no way when they do a search to tell if I am a live player or a bot, so the fact that there is so many bots around impacts my ability to get customers.
Chances are they know where a bot is. Why bother looking when you can just go to a bot?
Competition is fine, but the only way to compete with a bot is to become a bot. Currently players expect their buffs to be given in a very timely manner (God forbid you might be doing something and unable to respond immediately). They expect not to have to pay with no guilt. (A bot doesn't get offended if you don't tip, typically.) They expect them to be available in the same place all the time. That just isn't humanly possible to do. Even hardcore gamers need to take breaks for life things like eating, sleeping, and such.
The presence of buff-bots means the only viable means of offering buffs is by a bot. There are players who will seek out live entertainers, but I assure you they are in the vast minority. There is a whole generation of players who just assume that is how you get buffs from entertainers.
For the record, the reasons people leave the profession are, IN ORDER...
- Proliferation of AFK macros (Bots specifically, but others to a lesser extent)
- Lack of response to entertainer issues from the devs
- Lack of content
Lack of content is on there, but it is well below the other two. Holotainers were the catalyst that really set things in motion, but you will find the majority of players aren't so worried about AFK play if it's just for a little xp gain. I personally don't agree with that, but that is besides the point. It is the mass quantities of players going through the profession with no care at all for real entertainers, and the bots that make providing a service more of a hassle than it is worth, that is the main type of player people don't like.
For the record, buffs are not a right. They are a luxury. It is possible to play this game, and even do real well, without getting any buffs. I do agree with you that there will be a period where buffs are hard to find if buff-bots are killed. I don't think it will be a problem though. It's called supply and demand. If there is a demand but little supply, people will realize how much they value the service, and suddenly it will become worthwile to provide the service. Entertainers you didn't know existed will quickly start appearing. There are a lot of them that would go to cantinas more (Or at all) if there were not so many bots. Myself included. People might start learning to use the many tools in game useful for finding entertainers. (Yes, there are tools specifically designed for finding entertainers.)
Some people will be rude or resentful about it I'm sure. This behavior, however, will either be modified with positive reinforcement, or they will find themself buffless. Not to say that dancers will be forcing players to be nice, but rather that players will no longer be able to get away with being rude and mean. This is how things should work. If you don't believe me, try going to a restaurant, being rude to the waitress, demanding your food immediately, and being insulting. See how long it takes before the manager comes and asks you to leave. It will most likely be without your food.
Padtai wrote:
There is nothing illogical about trying to ease the pain from a symptom while you attempt to address the cause as well, especially if the cause is not easily addressed.
This is my point exactly. All effort in the entertainer community has shifted the blame of a funless profession towards buffbots. Why isnt there more outcries for fixing the problem that caused the symptoms?I disagree. Looking over the boards I still seeplenty of threads with "cool ideas' that sound so neatI think they might be worth making an entertainer character to try.Using your analogy, the entertainers are not seeking a cure, they are merely seeking relief. They are seeking a cure, but in the meantime,they need some relief so they they stop choking from the buffbot cough. I think that makes a lot of sense. What point is there to cure the underlying disease ifyou die from the effects of a symptom?
Whatever solution the developers introduce, I hope it is one that removesany incentive to run an account AFK all day in order to compete with people actually trying to play.
My hopes are the same, yet until the developers can insure the most needed buffs they introduced and made many players dependant on will be as easy to get as doctor buffs,I doubt they willtake away afk buffing. And shouldnt.
I disagree. "Most needed buffs" is an interesting phrase. Buffs were meant to be a bonus not a necessary step the way healing is. Most PVE players do not need mind buffs for most of the content since theycan usuallyget by with food and spice. So the people driving the use of buffbots are those who prefer PVP where they might want to use all three buffs. And its odd you say doc buffs are easy to get, since doc buffs require tons of resources and cannot be provided AFK quite so easily. People however have an incentive to spend a few hours "buffing" while at the keyboard because other players are willing to line up and pay well. If there were no bots, I think the same thing would happen for entertainers and if there were more doc bots, I think you'd see live doctors vannish from starports the way you have seen live entertainers vannish from cantinas. But docbots are not easy to own and operate. So there is still a need for live doctors to set up shop. Even if those doctors do nothing with their doctor skills but buff (many dont' even have basic wound packs on them), they still make a choice to do that. You can bet those type of doctors would choose to be entertainers if they thought there was demand for it. Right now though, buffbots practically eliminate the demand to be a "buffing" entertainer. So I bet if you couldn't AFK entertainer, the demand would be met in time as people realize there was money to be made for the effort. Yes there would be fewer mind buffs to be had in off hours, but then, there are fewer doc buffs to be had at those times too. So your criteria, that mind buffs be as easy to obtain as doctor buffs, would probably be met. If what you want is mind buffs to be even easier (as most people who encourage or support bots want) then true, AFKing does increase the supply above demand in a way live players probably would not be able to do. I"m not sure that is necessary and if buffs were really that necessary to play, I'd rather see NPCs as active money sinks giving the buffs than AFK players doing it.
Being a social player or anti-social holds no value to this discussion. I choose to be social with my friends and guildmates. I rarely walk into a cantina looking for new friends with my combat char.
I have no idea what you mean by this statement. I wasn't trying to say you were either social or anti-social. I was trying to say that I"m not a social playstyle type player, nor am Ione of those people who are opposed to having social playstyle people in the game (and some players are against it). I'm against buffbots but more because I think they hurt the social atmosphere of the game and game balance, which is different than saying they suck all the fun and use out of playing an entertainer. So even if you care nothing for the entertainer's game experience, or even if you think it could be more effectively improved in other ways, you stil do nothing to convince me afk bots are good for the game (especially on the game balance side of having all benefits having some immediate cost to the player obtaining the benefit)over increasing brandy strength or letting NPCs mind buff. Notice, I am a combat player but I don't feel I "need" mind buffs as you feel you do. Maybe its because I waspartically aCH when that nerf hit that I feel that nerfs don't scare me. Giving up the pets was tough but it allowed me to explore so many other ways to play the game that I'm glad the developers did that. The pets were a crutch and I suspect that no fuss mindbuffs from bots have become a crutch for far too many players. If thebots harmed no one that would be one thing, but thebots do harm entertainers, combat players (by discouraging grouping) andcrafters (reducing demand for food and spice).
There really is no way to enforce the social aspect in this game without impeding on someones time and playstyle.
There is no way to enforce the crafting and economic system of this game without impeding on someones time and playstyle.The developers do it anyway in order to create a game that has appeal to people who find combat games boring.Those who refuse to spend time shopping cantry to survive only off looted weapons and the like if they want. They just will be at a disadvantage to those players who are willing tointeract with the crafters.Why is it wrong to set up the same incentives for encouraging people to engage in social interaction with entertainers? Why suddenlydo people say they have a right to get all the bonuses without paying the costs for them? No one can make me want to interact with an entertainer or make an entertainer want to interact with me. All the game can do is tell me that if I don't choose to interact with an entertainer then I will have to pass on some benefit I might want for mygoals in game. THe game can be designed to encourage the entertainer to interact with me to gain further experience or credits. This leaves plenty to player choice forcing nothing on either side. The problem is there are some players that want to get the benefitsfrom such incentives without having to do the work to get them (even if they enjoy that work). The game right now allows this by allowing people to play AFK. .
You seem to assume people AFk or use AFK players only because they have to. Certainly that is one reason people run and rely on bots but it is no longer the only reason or perhaps no longer the most common reason. Right now the buffbot is run and used simply because people can. The sense that live players ought to be preferred is starting to fade from the mindset of the average player.
PistolDance wrote:
I just wanted to ask if you all have thought about what its like for a customer to walk into a cantina these days.
There are so many afkers spamming for heals and group invites it gets very laggy. Its a mess really.
So to deal with it, it becomesa get in and get out ordeal.
Get healed/buffed get out. Its not pleasant in there
They go to the first person they see buffing, the easiest, the fastest and get it done with.
Hopefully this will change a bit with the hologrinders gone. Ok, hopefully it will change a lot
I am in 100% agreement with you here. Even as an entertainer, I can barely stand the sight of Cantinas for the exact same reason. I don't want to go. And, that's been my point all along. None of us are there because we can't freakin' stand it. And, I am *completely* sympathetic to the plight of the customers and combat oriented players who don't want to be there very long for the exact same reason. But, then, how does one make the Cantinas more enjoyable? Well...get rid of afk'ers and buffbots. Then the entertainers will be there, and the combat players can have a much, much more enjoyable Cantina experience, just like the entertainers. Getting rid of all that "mess" would be good for everyone. Adding more content won't really change the fact that the buffbots are there spamming every 10 seconds and making it unpleasant for people.
Better a fool than a liar, Til. I had thought you neither, but I'm afraid you've proved yourself both.
AnakinSWG wrote:
I think you've already made a fool of yourself, Krupskaya. No need to go on...
kirah_ashlin wrote:
BTW, Pistol - I did read your post completely and nothing in there stated that you had any entertainment knowledge.
I realized early on for my opinions to matter to anyone here Icannot be an "outsider" so iwrote a short history of my twice master dancer. Perhaps you should read ALL of the arguments and ALL of the posts before posting on a thread telling someone they dont know what they are talking about.
Becuase you see...you dont know what you are talking about
If what you claim as mastery was done for the hologrind than your points are invalidated. If you indeed spent a good deal of time at a master level entertainer profession then I have towonder why our concerns about buffbots are unfounded in your estimation? Do you buffbot? Again read my post, I mastered once (first profession mastered in swg) and then again after I had given it up (after holos were put in). She is still a master.
Buffbots are educating the player masses now. I am constantly being asked to "group" with a player so they can get their buff.
Buffbots know how to buff, out of my experiencemost ATK entertainers that buff people dont know how.
I dont think taking tips from a buffbot would be a bad thing. They have mastered the art of a perfect buff, if that is what your customer is paying you for, it should be given. Many combatants feel the same way, a half buff is incredibly annoying and we recieve them often from ATK entertainers.
They in turn would have a lot to learn from ATK entertainers (more to learn in my opinion), but most of the combatant population doesnt care about the "entertainer" aspect of mind buffs. I do, they are missing out
Before the entertainer bots were put in I would use creature habitats for butterflies and gloweez effects, it was cool.
But they dont careAnd it is their right not to.
I am being stiffed more often now, also. I find I have to correct the wrong mentality that other players have regarding not just buffs, but entertainers, as well. Buffbots have done more than just hurt our economy - they are destroying our reputation. And no amount of credits,quests,clickiesradials or new dances/songscan make up for that.
I can understand this and see how paying entertainers would be now considered optional. It is sad really, I agree.
Yet this will happen in any profession where services are given free. Buffbot mentality? I dont use resources, why should I care about charging people. Its not right, but thats how the game was set up, before buffbots.