Entertainer Archive
Thread: Entertainer Report 7/25/03
CantinaFly wrote:
As I mentioned elsewhere, gig missions have more problems than just being cheap. They're also only found in a select number of towns on a given planet, in one particular building. And frankly, I think the denial of service feature is a more realistic goal than getting them to fix the mission system. But I will admit that a mission system for entertainers that is as accessible and profitable as the system for delivery and destroy missions would be an acceptable alternative to the money issue. Selling instruments, on the other hand, is not. First of all, nobody wants to buy them except for other entertainers, all of whom know how to make their own. Also, instruments require materials that you, as an entertainer, don't know how to mine. Assuming you bought the necessary equipment (surveying machines and a crafting tool) and bought novice artisan, you'd probably invest a good 300 credits to be able to make something most people wouldn't pay 50 credits for (what the hell is my Marskman going to do with a Mandiviol?)
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Watch out another RL comparison coming, I hate making these but sometimes they work
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Gig missions IRL are not found in podunk Michigan. If they are it's 50 for playing a church gig which I'm sure you're aware is at least an hour and a half. Yeah, that's 50 an hour in Podunk Michigan, good but bad cause you only get that hour on Sunday no matter how many churches are in town.
Now go to Chi-town and meet a musician there. Gigs coming at you from everywhere, most you can't play cause you're not skilled enough, don't know guitar, don't have a tux, etc. Church gigs on wednesday and saturday and friday in a big town and paying minimum 150 flat per member. Brass Quintet makes spending cash.
My point, gigs should be hard to find on Verni Island and in Anchorhead. I agree they should be tweaked a bit but they should not compete with player gigs for time and money. My band (in game now) is about to make signifigant cash playing a gig in a week, we're practicing for it so we have a few new gimiks this time to show the crowd.
As far as selling instruments, we (my band) are looking in to that. Only a few of us have surveying skills and I don't know where everyone else is getting their metal but we just sold 2 Nalargons for some decent cash each. I know one was sold to a droid engineer who wanted it for furniture in his house (I think the other was sold to a non-musician too, but don't quote me on that). If they continue to sell like that we will have our PA Center in no time.
I'd like to take this moment to invite any serious and legitimate, mature, and dedicated (i.e. primary job is musician or dancer) musicians and dancers and master entertainers to give me a /tell if you are interested in a band. The monetary income is the least of the benefits. And infact, if all you want is money as an entertainer, don't call me. However, if you want better money as an entertainer, get in touch with me and we'll see if you fit with our band. If not, make up your own band.
300 one time cost on a crafting tool is not so bad when selling 2 nal's a week for house deed prices. I seem to remember several posts on my galaxy forum from DE's talking about not selling droids anymore and only selling bulk stores of high qual. steel. Maybe I can get some cheap from them (since they're out of work) and then sell a Nal back to each one for his or her house. That's not music but it take 15 min. in game right, to talk up the sale, close the sale, craft the item, and make the trade. Then back to band work.
I don't know, the price for Nal's might go drasticly lower when everyone's house has one. (ever look at classifieds for pianos? They're "free if you can move it out your self" every town i've lived in, or pay for the nice ones but you can always find 3 or 4 free ones. . .now I need a truck and two guys to go get that Hammond B-3 I saw for 1200.)
I'm not worried about the instrument trade slowing down, it won't die, marksmen are always asking me for slitherhorns and I never have any. (not that it's a booming business, i get a request or two a week but the demand is there) Trade slows down = no problem as player cantinas will be coming up if they aren't already, they want a Nal and an Omni each. And more importantly they want a steady band.
KoraJubali wrote:
CantinaFly wrote:
As I mentioned elsewhere, gig missions have more problems than just being cheap. They're also only found in a select number of towns on a given planet, in one particular building. And frankly, I think the denial of service feature is a more realistic goal than getting them to fix the mission system. But I will admit that a mission system for entertainers that is as accessible and profitable as the system for delivery and destroy missions would be an acceptable alternative to the money issue. Selling instruments, on the other hand, is not. First of all, nobody wants to buy them except for other entertainers, all of whom know how to make their own. Also, instruments require materials that you, as an entertainer, don't know how to mine. Assuming you bought the necessary equipment (surveying machines and a crafting tool) and bought novice artisan, you'd probably invest a good 300 credits to be able to make something most people wouldn't pay 50 credits for (what the hell is my Marskman going to do with a Mandiviol?)
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Watch out another RL comparison coming, I hate making these but sometimes they work
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Gig missions IRL are not found in podunk Michigan. If they are it's 50 for playing a church gig which I'm sure you're aware is at least an hour and a half. Yeah, that's 50 an hour in Podunk Michigan, good but bad cause you only get that hour on Sunday no matter how many churches are in town.
Now go to Chi-town and meet a musician there. Gigs coming at you from everywhere, most you can't play cause you're not skilled enough, don't know guitar, don't have a tux, etc. Church gigs on wednesday and saturday and friday in a big town and paying minimum 150 flat per member. Brass Quintet makes spending cash.
My point, gigs should be hard to find on Verni Island and in Anchorhead. I agree they should be tweaked a bit but they should not compete with player gigs for time and money. My band (in game now) is about to make signifigant cash playing a gig in a week, we're practicing for it so we have a few new gimiks this time to show the crowd.
As far as selling instruments, we (my band) are looking in to that. Only a few of us have surveying skills and I don't know where everyone else is getting their metal but we just sold 2 Nalargons for some decent cash each. I know one was sold to a droid engineer who wanted it for furniture in his house (I think the other was sold to a non-musician too, but don't quote me on that). If they continue to sell like that we will have our PA Center in no time.
I'd like to take this moment to invite any serious and legitimate, mature, and dedicated (i.e. primary job is musician or dancer) musicians and dancers and master entertainers to give me a /tell if you are interested in a band. The monetary income is the least of the benefits. And infact, if all you want is money as an entertainer, don't call me. However, if you want better money as an entertainer, get in touch with me and we'll see if you fit with our band. If not, make up your own band.
So explain why only two people in all of Mos Eisley (or Theed, or any other large city) give out gig missions? And explain why you have to keep dropping missions and getting another in order to get one in the town you're in? Why don't nobles in Mos Eisley ever have gigs in Mos Eisley? The system is just moronic as it stands now. And again, the problem with using reality as a basis for excusing the game is that if you're going to be "realistic", you can't just take the parts of reality that happen to match your argument. True, real-life musicians tend to have day jobs. But eventually, when those musicians become famous, they live like kings. You can't go see Metallica play live for free. But if you as a "band" in the game decided to have a gig in some little "player cantina", you'd make as much money as the guy selling shaved ice on Hoth, because nobody in SWG goes to see a band for the fun of it, they go for healing or just to talk, and they can do that for free. Unlike a real-life band, the extent to which you can offer something that a lower-level entertainer can't is rather limited, and people are less likely to care. If the game isn't going to give you the benefits of a real-life performer, then why should you have to put up with the downsides?
Incidentally, just to make it clear that this isn't entirely about my own experience, I'd like to mention that I made about 2500 credits in the space of about 30 minutes to an hour of entertaining. But this situation still concerns me, because of the principles involved. As it is now, the game is functioning like artisans are the only capitalists in the whole galaxy, and everyone else is a communist. Nobody asks for any kind of compensation for their work, and they enjoy the labor of others without paying either. How this is supposed to build a decent economy, I'll never know. Maybe I should just start a Marxist PA and build a commune somewhere.
"nobody wants to buy them except for other entertainers, all of whom know how to make their own."
Ah, but they can't make an instrument until at least one level beyond when they can use it. The resources can be found on the bazaar for cheap. I've noticed Fizzz and especially Slitherhorn sell very well if you don't put them in saturated markets. Lots of people take novice but don't have a slitherhorn. You won't make 100k in a week, but it will provide you with enough money for some new clothes and a new instrument in just a couple days.
"And explain why you have to keep dropping missions and getting another in order to get one in the town you're in? Why don't nobles in Mos Eisley ever have gigs in Mos Eisley?"
You don't! You could just, you know, do the ones you get like everyone else does. Of course, when I say everyone else, I mean non-power gamers, or people who are just having fun and playing the game.
You complain so much about being an entertainer, one wonders why you don't just go do something else.
Or maybe you don't play an entertainer at all...just troll the boards all day long! 
Flyboy and I go back a few pages 
And we've had the same convo over about three different posts.
Ok, this is all just whiney wah wah. People complain too much on these boards. If someone has a different idea, then by all means they are entitled to it.
That being said, I am against /deny. This idea is going to be exploited to the largest extent. People who are poor entertainers will use this for revenge on people who don't tip. The way I see it, we don't use resources, we don't have to spend money to entertain these people, so why are we entitled to getting paid to talk in group chat or /tell? Granted, there are some of you who play your butts off for customers and don't get paid, trust me, I feel your pain. But did you really take this job thinking that you would be the most rich person in the universe in a couple of weeks? Um, no. That's not gonna work. If you plan on making a living off of entertainment, you have to be **edit** good. Let me give you an example of poor entertainment.
Being stuck off Starsider again, my friend and I decided to make characters on another server. When we got there we both made scouts and were gonna be bounty hunters. How fun! But, being the fashionista I am, we needed new clothes. I contacted 3 tailors and finally got one to meet me in the cantina. When I walked in, no one greeted me and I stood there asking if anyone knew where I could find the tailor. No one answered me. There were 5 girls AFKing. That really bugs me. The cantina was really full, well more full than I am used to, but no one was really talking. I think there were a couple of entertainers talking. It seemed if the whole cantina was AFK and macroing. Then, the most horrible thing happened! One of them spoke! Guess what they said??? "Welcome to the cantina, make sure you're watching and listening. And be sure to tip us, we do this for a living."
They talk only to beg for tips?! Not one of them answered a simple question about a tailor and they ask for tips. I was outraged!! I would never do that! So I said, "What have you done for a tip?" The entire cantina woke up from their AFKing and flamed me like no tomorrow. They went on strike and wouldn't play for anyone. Like I said, I was there meeting a tailor and didn't really need their services. I was appalled at what happened next. They sat down and started chanting "NO PAY NO PLAY." This went on for half an hour. They told me that they "deserve" tips and that people should pay them for the service they provide. I disagreed heartily. Needless to say, I tipped them all 50 credits each, just to stop complaining.
By far, this was the worst experience I have ever had in a cantina. The level of maturity was horrendous. I tried to tell them that people do not owe them anything, based on the fact that they gain XP from being watched. If you provide company and a good experience you will be "rewarded" for a job well done. WHOOSH. Right over their heads. They didn't understand that people are not willing to pay for watching something jiggle up and down for a couple of minutes. There has to be some kind of interaction. They didn't understand.
In short, /deny would be used to punish people for not paying. /ignore works best for customers who are harrassing and if all else fails, go play in the theatre or a guild hall. You might not get the XP you were looking for, but you don't have to deal with immature little pricks.
As for the entire cantina I dealt with, you all need to learn what it is to be an entertainer. Punching buttons and macroing is not the way to get tips. Sitting down and demanding tips is not the way to get tips. Being nice and welcoming people and talking to them as individuals IS the way to get tips. If you're having that much trouble living off of tips, pick up crafting or even combat. Do the entertainer missions, or even do delivery missions. There is always a way.
Crossbreed wrote:Flyboy and I go back a few pages
And we've had the same convo over about three different posts.
Yes, and you've been just as unnecessarily rude and hostile since the first time we had a discussion. You seem particularly fond of responding to individual statements without referencing their context. You see, what was being discussed was how poorly paying the gig missions were, especially if you take away the travelling money. Add that to the fact that they take much longer to do than a delivery mission, yet generally pay less, and they seem a little broken. One solution that many people suggest is to wait until you get a mission in your own town, but I've yet to see that really work in practice. I always have to travel, no matter how many times I cancel and get another one. And you are hardly one to be calling someone else a "powergamer". But then again, I already knew you were a hypocrite. Thanks for the reminder.
I think this can also be somewhat helped by the players. People do listen to bands for entertainment. Here's an in-game example that happend to my band on Friday last: We played the opening of Leppy's Lounge, I hope you were there, it was a blast. As soon as it got dark, they lit off all the fireworks, about a 10 min display, I have screenshots. We, the band, went outside to play along with and watch. We were playing some slow song from before the works started and about a minute into the show one of the attendees asked us if we could play something a little more exciting for the works. They were listening and we were playing outside, without the benefit of a cantina, providing no healing or even conversation as our eyes were all pointed skywards. At this gig I personally got three tips the whole night and we were there for a little while. I got two 500cr tips and one for 50. The band leader got several large tips that we put towards our PA center. I believe they were both in the range of 5k to the band.
Another instance the next day on saturday 26th July: We played a wedding reception again at Leppy's. After some food and dancing the bride had planned a fireworks show outside. This one was not 10 min. long, but we went out to play for it too. As we played long after the fireworks show, a random PC was out in the wilderness walking by, not attached with the wedding party at all. He literally stopped dead as he walked by and did a double take. He sat down in the grass right in front of us and after about a minute of watching us play he said these words, wish I had screen shot them, "OMG" followed by a "this is the best I've ever seen in the game" That guy didn't tip me personally but at the reception my band got a very large tip from someone in the wedding party (this tip was beyond our agreed on payment from the bride).
My point is that people do come to see some entertainment and they would appreciate a little show even without mentioning healing and that they will tip at player cantinas, especially if you put on a good show. I had to, and so did the other 11 members of my band, put a little bit of time into those shows organizing things like wardrobe, instrumentation, macros, solos, scheduling. And that time took away from me jamming in the cantina. So, no I didn't just boot up the game and get my fun on.
I think that we as a band (has nothing to do with master or skill levels) have a lot to offer over what unorganized musicians offer to the cantina crowd. I'm not disrespecting a pickup jam band, I love that too and I do it every day. I just don't get as many excellent remarks and responses from the audience, and that's really what i'm in it for.
Again here's my point, I believe the players in this game are willing to come see a band for reasons other than a game mechanic. I believe it will give us the benefits of a real life performer if we reach that level. That's not saying we don't need a game mechanic, I like the healing thing and I utilize it. It would negatively impact the game to remove it, it's just not the only reason we're around. As for the bling-bling, it's starting to show up on radar but it'll be a long way off.
I'd say we're about as famous as your local band. (Anyone heard of Mustard Plugs?) In order to be living like a rock star I think our band would have to first, be better than it already is (have more routines), and second, be known throughout the galaxy by a good portion of each planet. Then I'd expect to be rakin in the cash from gigs and maybe even tips. But yeah, you're right, you won't be makin fat cash jammin' in the cantina untill you have some very devoted customers. That's possible for people too I think.
CantinaFly wrote:
You see, what was being discussed was how poorly paying the gig missions were, especially if you take away the travelling money. Add that to the fact that they take much longer to do than a delivery mission, yet generally pay less, and they seem a little broken.
Huh...valid point. Dancers don't make enough money to travel extensively.
I think a /denyservices command would be a bad idea. If you /ignore and /report people for harassment or rude behaivor, they will be taken care of. I have reported several people in cantinas that were harassing the dancers or other band members... suggested to the other band members they do the same and in a few minutes the rude person either leaves or mysteriously goes LD... I assume from a repremand from Customer Service.
As for tipping in general.. it is just that... a tip. By nature it is not required and only to be given for excellent service. I would never expect a tip from a patron, but they are greatfully accepted. Our payment is in the xp we earn playing/dancing and healing. Perhaps later when you have a well known band or dance troupe you can earn some good money for gigs, but I would not expect a beginner entertainer to earn more than barely enough to pay for training from the NPC(although I offer training to anyone anytime for free)
I have to agree that not all of these issues would be my personal ones to bring to the developers. I'm sure that some people feel that way. That is why "the Chosen One" gets replaced frequently. To bring new ideas and a new perspective to the profession.
Take care!