Entertainer Archive
Thread: What should the end game be like for entertainers?
To me the whole point of being an entertainer is all the things you're NOT doing via the game engine and animations/sounds. Starting popular 1 and punching the flourish button may technically be dancing but by itself it is not entertaining. Entertainers engage the audience, chat with patrons, interact with customers -- in other words, they do their best to entertain people. And since that is what I view as the #1 job of the entertainer -- being friendly and entertaining while they heal you, rather than just some mindless NPC-esque bot -- I don't see the need for anything extra after I hit master. I'm not in it for the xp, really -- especially after getting the final knowledge box. Now I can do all the dances, and that was really the only reason to care about xp in the first place -- wanting better dance variety to be more entertaining and for aesthetic reasons, not for the sole purpose of getting to master.
However, I willingly acknowledge that most players are not like me, and that they get enjoyment from the END of, rather than during, playing a character. So I realize that for many entertainers, there needs to be "something to do" after they hit master. Players like seeing progress bars move forward on the screen for some reason I will never be able to fathom (I couldn't care less about it myself), and after you max out all your skills, the only way to keep seeing progress bars is to surrender those skills and re-learn them or learn new ones.
I'm frankly not sure what can be done about this. Other than a "fame pool" like was suggested, which would be just a master-level progress bar that would start creeping across the screen for you I don't see how else you could add more progress bars. And the problem with fame is you have to assume that would be max'ed out too eventually, which would mean it hasn't solved the problem, but merely delayed it. Any of the other ideas that come under the heading of better entertainment ability (entertainment pets, registered bands/troupes, control over cantina shows, etc) provide absolutely no means of making progress and so while a few players might like them, the ones asking for more "end game content" will probably not see them as such.
C
Payback!
Protonpete wrote:
ha ha,.how about Masters have the ability to stop an Afker from playing,. or dancer fromafk dancing,.woo hoo!
Payback!
Now THAT I like.
Except that 3/4 of the "Master" Dancers I know are people who AFKed their way to the top so either they would (a) not see this as a useful ability or (b) see this as a way to stop other people from getting the "good stuff" (effortless xp) that they got themselves.
But still and all I like the idea. MUH-hahahahah.
C
Fame pool would be nice..
Not taking up skill points, the bar moves steadily and ding, you gain a feather boa, ding you gain a gold Fizz, ding you gain a working mic, ding you gain a snake to drape round your shoulders, ding you gain a new song, ding the Emperor/Leiahas heard of you and wants you to dance/play for some visiting VIP's...
there are all sorts of simple things that you could get that give a sense of achievement, yet also produce a tangible reward... might make it fun for some 
SlickRiptide wrote:Actually, this very problem is the reason that I see "fame" rewards as being consumables. I wouldn't make it a new song or an accessory. I'd make it a one-use ability or a one-time effect. To use it again, you have to build up your XP pool again. That would make it something special and exciting when it did get used.
While this sounds good, I think this is actually akin to having master-only level quests. How many times are you going to spend your "fame" points on the same consumable item? Imagine if the consumable item were something we see a lot of already: quests. Lots of Masters are doing the Cries of Alderaan storyline. What are the complaints, still? "After we do the story once it is old hat." How many times are you going to do the same quest before you get bored? Similarly, how many times are you going to use the same "fame perk" before you are bored with it. I still think the players will burn through these things and get bored with them much faster than any set of devs could ever possibly be expected to produce them (and have them not be bugged).
SlickRiptide wrote:Second, is something that I'm beginning to think of as a fundamental flaw in the game. We have this system with this wonderful variety. We can customize our appearance in dozens of ways. We can customize our clothing in hundreds of ways. We can customize our skillset to be exactly what we want to be.
Yet, when we reach mastery of our main profession, we find that we're exactly the same as every other master of that profession. You may be a wookie and I may be a rodian but we both have the same skill levels, the same repertoire and the same instruments. Personality aside, a group of musicians at a wedding reception could replace one of us with the other without missing a beat.
I fundamentally disagree that this is a flaw in the system. The customization you are talking about is still there, and infinitely so. You are just looking at it through the wrong lens. Yes, when she hits "Master Dancer," my Twi'lek dancer-girl will have the same set of dances, flourishes, and skills within dance as every other dancer.
BUT...
She will also (eventuallY) be Master Entertainer. How many Master Dancers are also Master Entertainers? And thus how many of them can switch from dance, in the middle of an act, to Ceremonial on the Mandovial. Now, it's not a tiny number, but they are not 100% overlapping sets. Let's say 1/3 of dancer/entertainers are just Master Dancers, and do not bother with music, 1/3 are Master Entertainers and do not go into the elite tree, and 1/3 are MD + ME. That means that I am now similar, not ot EVERY dancer, but 1/3 of the dancer/entertainers out there.
But wait. My character is ALSO a Master Marksman. Now.. just how many characters do you think there are who are Master Dancer/Master Entertainer/Master Marksman? Way less than 1/3... In fact I know NO OTHER dancer in my circle (which is reasonably extensive, covering pretty much all of Naboo on my server except Theed because I hate the AFK Macro attitude there) who is all 3 of these things.
And by the way, she has artisan skills and all 4 domestic arts boxes + some survey. She cooks and provides Jawa Beer to people (when someone provides her with Wooly Hides) in the cantina in between dance sets. How many other entertainers do that?
See... they gave us 250 skill points.. You don't need 250 to be a single-profession Master. You need only 77 for base profs and 68 + some base for elite profs. For dancer it's something like 111 total points to get into and master dance. If they JUST gave us 111 total skill points, then I might agree with you, but they gave us another whole 139 skill points to play with, and THAT is where your customization comes in.
So my Twi'lek dancer is not like every other one, because she also plays music, does image design, and is darn good with all 3 types of ranged weapons. I don't know any other dancer/entertainers who can take on the types of creatures Dejah can take on. And my wookiee swordsman? Oh there are lots of those, when he hits master if he is just that, he'd be like all of them. But he's also going to be a Bio-Engineer. Just how many Wookie Swordsman/Bio-Engineers are there out there? Nowhere near as many as just swordsmen or just Bio-Engineers.
So when you are talking about customization (which of course is somewhat aside from the whole question but in part related), it depends on how tightly you focus your zoom lens. If you zoom in to the level of a single skill then every skill each of us has is identical. I can make the same exact things from Domestic Arts III that you can. If you zoom out to the profession, there is some (but not huge) customization -- maybe I do Domestic Arts + Survey (under artisan) but you do Engineer + Business + Survey. But if we master, of course we have all the same skills. HOWEVER... if you zoom out to look at the whole character, then most characters are quite different from each other. So a Tailor/Chef is going to be a lot different from a Tailor/Dancer or a Chef/TKA, for example.
And note that the game allows, if you don't insist on mastering an entire profession but just do disciplines (4-box skill columns), for you to be in many professions, and that's even more customization. For instance, in Scout you could just do Exploration, and nothing else, becoming an "explorer." In Medic you could do just stimpacks becoming a "stimpack chemist". In artisan you could just go up the DA line and into chef but do ONLY fluids, becoming "bartender." In dance you could go up just the knowledge line and ignore healing and tehc, and become a "choreographer." In Marksman you could go up just the pistol line to become a "Pistol Specialist."
Now you have a character who has many skills that over-lap with other characters but is an explorer/choreographer/stimpack chemist/bartender/pistol specialist. Just how many of those do you think there are walking around? Not many, I bet... The number of possible combinations is staggering.
The problem is that everyone tries to "get to the end" -- in other words, become a Master -- and looked at with the proper (or perhaps improper) level of zoom to the lens, yes, at the profession levels, all masters have to be identical because by definition they have all the same 18 skill boxes. But at the larger level (the character level) they are all very different.
Or how many Master Dancer/Master Marksman/Master Entertainers have YOU seen?
There is one basic underlying thought to this whole thread. There are four basic play types in MUDs and MMORPGs -- Socializer (people who sort of use the game as a fancy chat room or to RP), Explorer (PVE types), Achiever (powerlevellers, grinders, etc), and Killers (PVPers -- note, NOT creature-killers, that falls under Explorer). While some Killers and Explorers will take the entertainment professions, odds are they do not do it with the purpose of levelling up, but either to unwind from killing things and exploring, or to heal up, or whatever. So Mastery may not be a goal of theirs and certainly won't affect their play style (since their #1 enjoyment is not focused in and around the cantina). Socializers are in the game to RP or chat or whatever, and they can do that regardless of XP gain (I'm one), so they don't need an "end game" of content after Mastery -- the socialization IS the content and you can do it Master or not.
It's the Achievers who feel the game, after they hit master, lacks something. They want a goal to strive for. They want to see progress being made. They want there to be a carrot on the end of the stick to reach for. Without the ability to keep levelling up, they need something. The problem is that Achievers also like variety. They do NOT want to sit around killing flesh-eating chubas from novice marksman through master pistol. They want to move on, to fanned rawls, and narglatches, and then higher worlds and rancors and Kimogillas (kimogillae?). They want to do quests, but different quests, NOT the same quest over and over (where's the achievement in repitition?). So just giving them the SAME carrot on the end of the SAME stick to keep re-using experience points from is, I fear, going to bore them after a very short while, and leave them still feeling like "there is nothing left to play for."
The problem is that a game cannot be endless. All games have upper limits. SWG may have set the limit a little too low or made them a little too "achievable" so that the achievers got there too soon and are now in danger of getting bored. But even if you had 8 boxes per skill column instead of four, you'll still get to the "end" eventually. And the more single-minded and obsessive you are in the pursuit of the ending, the faster you will get there.
Take Dejah for instance. She's not even close to mastering yet. Know why? Because I didn't obsessively grind. Oh, I obsessively played the game.. But I traded off. Hunting/marksman stuff one day... crafting one day... shopping one day... dancing one day... And I stayed OUT of big groups deliberately to keep the XP coming in at a slow-ish (reasonable) rate rather than trying to level up ASAP. This has kept her an intersting and continuously, but slowly, growing character for 3 months and she's still not done. If I am "lucky" I will "finish" her by Christmas, after having started her in July. And even if I were bored with her being Master of everything I wanted for her at that point, I can't complain about having played the same character almost every day for 6 months. That's a darn good run... and by then I'd be ready to start something new, if I hadn't already before that.
The problem is that a lot of achiever types sat in the cantina all day, 20 hours a day, every day, for weeks and weeks and burned through all their various skill boxes in entertainment and the higher profs at super-speed, and now that they are up there, they are burnt out and disappointed. But when *I* get there I will not be disappointed, because I will already have had a good and satisfying run with this character. (Note, I will still continue to play her for long afterwards, because I like playing her, but even if I didn't, my point would still stand.)
Since it's the obsessive types who burn through their skills at an unbelievable rate who are already masters and are now bored, the real issue here is that no matter what the Devs add, it will be burned through by these same people, and they will still be bored. And you can't say, "well they could just make everything harder," because it doesn't work -- anything hard enough to keep the obsessive types from finishing it in a really short time, would be so hard or take so long that nobody BUT them would ever be able to accomplish anything (e.g., EQ -- how many people ever actually finished the plane of time?).
I'm not sure what to do about this but I am fairly sure that usable "fame perks" will not, of itself, solve the problem.
C
Oooooo I love this thread and would of posted sooner but I have a ton of ideas runnig aroudn my head. Rest asured you will have to suffer a couple rather long Sultrina posts in the near future.
Let's just take the example of "add a new song." That requires a base pattern and 8 flourishes. And those things have to go well together in concert, and have to sound good and similar but slightly different on how many different instruments? 5? 6? Let's suppose it takes a few weeks to write and record the basics and another few weeks to get the variants down and then some more weeks to test it... I'd bet it'd take them a good 2 months to get a really nice, solid, "master level" song working properly the way, say, Ceremonial does.
The master-grinder types will qualify for this song 3 days after it goes live, get it, play it to death for a week, get sick of it, and scream, "We want more fame songs!!"
The same is true with fame-based master-level dances (it's worse -- they have to be motion cap'ed), master level fame-quests (they have to be written, tested, debugged, etc), or any other fame-based thing you suggest. Yeah, a quest wouldn't take as long to write as music, but it also would be burned through much faster (what does it take to do a typical quest, a few hours?)
After the players burn through whatever 4 or 5 "fame" things the devs can get out in the next few months, they'll ask for more... and more... and more... It'll never end, and there will never be "enough of it" because they go through it so much faster than it takes to produce.
Trust me on this one. I am a long-time module builder/designer (amateur of course) for Neverwinter Nights. By my estimate, it took me roughly 400 hours to build my 2nd module. That's right, FOUR HUNDRED (over four months, roughly 20-25 hours of building a week in my "spare" time). That module takes players 4 hours to play. That's a 100:1 ratio. So it takes a LOT longer to produce quality content than to actually play it, and there are 275,000 of us and only a handful of developers.
Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying they should not do something to put more "stuff" in the game for Masters. I just don't think there will ever be, in the Masters' minds, "enough" of it to keep them interested and happy the way they were at Novice watching all those progress bars fill up and getting that sense of accomplishment from buying skill boxes.
C
Chessack wrote:
After the players burn through whatever 4 or 5 "fame" things the devs can get out in the next few months, they'll ask for more... and more... and more... It'll never end, and there will never be "enough of it" because they go through it so much faster than it takes to produce.
Actually, this very problem is the reason that I see "fame" rewards as being consumables. I wouldn't make it a new song or an accessory. I'd make it a one-use ability or a one-time effect. To use it again, you have to build up your XP pool again. That would make it something special and exciting when it did get used.
I agree with most of what you've written, in principle Chessack. The problems I see are two-fold.
First, is that most players aren't role-players. If you're not performing at a wedding or party or whatever, then hanging out in the cantina becomes just a case of hanging out with your friends. That's enough for some folks and less than enough for others.
Second, is something that I'm beginning to think of as a fundamental flaw in the game. We have this system with this wonderful variety. We can customize our appearance in dozens of ways. We can customize our clothing in hundreds of ways. We can customize our skillset to be exactly what we want to be.
Yet, when we reach mastery of our main profession, we find that we're exactly the same as every other master of that profession. You may be a wookie and I may be a rodian but we both have the same skill levels, the same repertoire and the same instruments. Personality aside, a group of musicians at a wedding reception could replace one of us with the other without missing a beat.
The game is leading us inexorably from customized character to cookie-cutter character instead of the other way around.
My two goals for the "end game" would be content tailored for master abilities, but also a way to gain new abilities or customizations that will actually differentiate one master from another. The AA point system of Everquest is a good example of such a system. Something that gives you a reason to keep on trying and that ultimately lets you be unique.
Depends on if you're factionally aligned...
Rebel = Lap dance for Luke
Imperial = Lap dance for Palpatine
Nuetral = Lap dance for Jabba
I just have to get this off my chest.
The current mind set among entertainers goes something like this. I must get exp so I can get the next song/dance and to do that I must be in a large group and I must get max exp so I can grow quickly to master so I can have fun. Nothing could be further from the truth. This mode of thinking will ensure that entertainers never reach their full potential because there is always just one more person out there who only knows SW1. I know it’s a bitter pill to swallow, but it’s true. If you’re not enjoying the class now there isn’t much to enjoy at master.
We have to change the way we look at our class to get the most out of it. We have to work together that means master have to help the new guy, but it also means the new guys have to help the masters. There is simply no reason in the world for a band to play SW1 all night when it only costs 1000 exp to get rock. You can earn 1000 exp solo at a star port for crying out loud. When the band changes songs (and they need to do this often) if you can’t play the song start dancing or move to the side and practice with the rest of the guys that can’t play the song.
When the band changes songs the band leader should make it known they are about to change to <songname> so those who can play it can float back over and join the band. There is no malice here no one is trying to “gimp” your exp they are trying to keep the show fun and when you’re a master musician you can be part of it all the time. In the mean time won’t it be great too look forward to playing something other then SW1 as you grow? Don’t get me wrong with a full band SW1 sounds great and a lot of high level bands simply don’t play the fast stuff enough. Work together and make the show and not the exp the main goal for the whole group we will all be better off for it.
Dancers have and obligation to support the band too! If the band is playing rock don’t grind exotic it doesn’t look right. Change your clothes and dance to suit the band they are setting the tempo. If you just have to grind exotic because you’re so close move off the floor. Always remember the show must go on!
I am a Master Dancer. I also am a Scout and Hunter, have carbine 4 and field stabilzer. If being Master Entertainer had "more" to it than Cantina Work, I'd go full Master in that field and "do" things. I have friends saying I should dump Dancer and go Commando as I would do good in it. I like to visit, chat and rollplay and yes flirt. I enjoy going to the Cantina and socializing in the game. But. I find it limiting. I enjoy the missions. I like questing. The Entertainer Quest's lets face it, they bite. They need to be beefed up. If a mission of any type requires you to go off planet, hey! Pay for the Roundtrip Fare!!.Entertainers are broke most the time.
I like to rollplay as a Madame Butterfly type. I'm a SPY for the Imperial Forces! heheh, I look so beautiful and sweet but I'm deadly. I would love it if Masters in the Entertainment Fieldwould get a fighting or covert ability other profession doesnt. Then give us missions we can earn our own faction or ablility points. That would be so awsome. A Master Dancer Akido or something. I feel we are chained to the Cantina. Camps are so so, we can perform but are limited but we are still chained to the Specific Places to Perform unlike other professions. I hear complaints that Entertainers stick to cantinas and fighters have to go to them for service. That we are a bunch of Lazy's all grouped in huge Groups for XP and such. Well HELLO! yah. Only way for us to get xp!
I have a Medium House on Naboo, a SmallHourse for Guild Storage of resources, Mini-Farms I take care of and of course MY CLOTHES, guns, ammo, and pets. I got expenses and a rep to keep up. I need CASH. If I was given choice to dance in Theed for the evening and make 3k max from tips(sometimes more) or Going to Dath or Endor for group of 4 missions and make 150k... what do you think my choices would be? I take an entertainment mission that pays out 150 cr. OMG i'm sooooo THRILLED. Split that with 20people in dance group? wow. i'm rich. Now where is that sugar Daddy I promised a lap dance too, he tips well.
Lets get something worth Entertainers to DO!! Lets enrich our contents in ability suited to SPY stuff and things. Lets put a chance for Entertainers to make some cashola credits. I got a HUGE Tailor bill to pay.
LeAncien wrote:
I am a Master Dancer. I also am a Scout and Hunter, have carbine 4 and field stabilzer. If being Master Entertainer had "more" to it than Cantina Work, I'd go full Master in that field and "do" things. I have friends saying I should dump Dancer and go Commando as I would do good in it. I like to visit, chat and rollplay and yes flirt. I enjoy going to the Cantina and socializing in the game. But. I find it limiting. I enjoy the missions. I like questing. The Entertainer Quest's lets face it, they bite. They need to be beefed up. If a mission of any type requires you to go off planet, hey! Pay for the Roundtrip Fare!!.Entertainers are broke most the time.
I've just started my entertainer character within the past few days and I love it. I also love being able to get out of the cantinas for a while. My other character is of the artisan/fighter-type and I see so many missed opportunities for most of the professions that are not the typical fighters.
For instance Smugglers, though they are great fighters in their own right, could be so much more. Yeah they can pick a few locks and make spices, but in the current roles of these abilities they are crafters ... take an object that someone else made and make it a bit better or make spices fromcommon resources, just like every other crafting profession. When I first picked up SWG I had high hopes for being a smuggler who would be running blockades, dodging bounty hunters and meeting seedy contacts in back alleys. Of course none of this actually seems to happen in game. High levelmissions should exist that take advantage of a profession's particular skills.
That poor smuggler up there could be asked to take a specific path to a waypoint (by way of numerous other waypoints perhaps) and be confronted by NPCs along the way who try to set up a blockade. Once he gets to his final destination he has to slice open a locked door to enter a building, use a spice to incap the guards inside, sneak around to find the object of the quest and then return it to the person who hired him, all while avoiding the bounty hunters sent by an opposing faction to stop him.
Yeah I hear you, "take it to the Smuggler boards." I'm speak from my reference point of what I had orginally hoped for the smuggler profession but the same type of template could be used for several different types of high level, multi-task missions that take advantage of all of your chosen profession's skills ...
An NPC in a cantina hires you to "perform" at a corporate office party. Go to the business and audition for the gig. While the "boss" is watching your performance he is lulled into being a little less careful about who is in the room and you are able to steal the blueprints to the building where the party will be held, showing where the safe is. Once you arrive at the party your band continues playing while you "take a short break" and sneak over to the room where the safe is located. Having placed a debilitating spice (previously purchased from a smuggler) into your slitherhorn, you offer the guard a private concert. While playing, the spice is sprayed into the air and the guard is incapped, freeing you to enter the room and take the plans for the lastest and greatest mouse trap. Complete the mission by returning the plans to your true employer.
These mission examples are just off the top of my head but the mechanics already exist in the game that would make both of them possible. Master Entertainers seem to get bored when they run out of things to do, so give them something to do that takes advantage of their entire skill base that lower level entertainers would have no hope of doing. Missions could exist that askyou to put on a show that includes a number of skill requirements, and missions could exist that ask entertainers to step out of the cantina from time to time and take a few risks. The same "mission" above could even include both player types ... a nice safe member of the band and a risk-taker who steals the plans.
Longer, more involved missions (NOT themepark-type encounters) could also be used to draw people out of their safe zones and encourage grouping and socialization, while requiring you to rely on everyone doing their individual jobs within the group. Asmugglercould be required to steal and slice a briefcase that contains the plans for a new type of Super AT-ST,a commando now knows where to shoot to destroy it, but a dancer would have needed to distract the courrier and/or the guards first.
After accepting a mission like this it's up to you to then assemble the team needed to carry it out. I know this thread started as a "what do Entertainers need" topic but I see the problem a little more universally. Almost all professions lack significant "stuff to do" once they make master. Encourage people to break out of their usual safe zones when they want to, while allowing them to do what their chosen profession is best at doing.