Entertainer Archive
Thread: JustG: We feel that AFK macroers are not healthy for the game.We want it to stop as soon as we can.
I'll just say that Panthu, Niza, you misunderstand my meaning. I do not feel the way you seem to think I do.
Howevr, I also feel that needless disagreement where there is none is counter-productive. Are you willing to just trust me when I say that yoou are misunderstanding my meaning?
Tiaga wrote:
Howevr, I also feel that needless disagreement where there is none is counter-productive. Are you willing to just trust me when I say that yoou are misunderstanding my meaning?
Yep! I'm the first to admit I can be a _huge_ flake. I'm very happy if you say I've misunderstood. 
I'm a whole lot happier thinking that you even partially agree and are passing along that we need more content for some (admittedly not all) ents/dancers... how you feel that touches on the AFK issue doesn't have to be a huge hang up for me, whatever it is. 
I think I'm very obviously intent on focusing on how to work around AFK rather than against it, but only because I lost hope that it would be eliminated (mixed feelings on that aside). You have many different types of players to represent, so I think it's good that you understand me even if I don't you, lol. I just want us to work, be useful, and fun for all, however we get there is ok by me.
Tiaga wrote:
I've written several replies now.. But I just don't know how to say it..
I'll just say that Panthu, Niza, you misunderstand my meaning. I do not feel the way you seem to think I do.
Howevr, I also feel that needless disagreement where there is none is counter-productive. Are you willing to just trust me when I say that yoou are misunderstanding my meaning?
What's the misunderstanding? You said you didn't think that improving the at the keyboard dancer skill would help stop AFK skill gain. I merely stated that I feel you are completely wrong about that. The reason people can't stand to actually play their dancer while going from novice entertainer to master dancer is because it is quite frankly boring.
In beta we at least were able to get xp from group dancing which gave the at the keys folks some amount of pleasure as they could at least drive the afkgroup and create interesting group entertainment from them.
As for being counter productive by debating... What changes to the entertainer professions have we had by quietly waiting our turn?
I am willing to bet that adding real game content to our class and leveling experience would minimize afk usage as much as if not more than stopping the hologrind will.
I'm taking that bet. People don't AFK in their normal play time, people AFK 24/7 minus server reset. Why ? Because they can. Thats the only reason. They can gain a box of dancing xp over night or while at work. There is no reason not to, so no gameplay content whatever it may be, will stop anyone from gaining skill instead of logging out. The alternative to AFK is only ATK for a small minority and those will be caught by gameplay changes or adding content. The mass of AFKing is taking place while people should be logged out.
If playing the game suddenly becomes a mindblowing experience I enjoy for all the time of the day I could, what should hold me from placing my character AFK for another skill box for the night ? No amount of gameplay will change that problem.
Logging out has to be more rewarding than staying in game unattended.
All other games do this by punishing the AFKers, I would like the other way round, but I don't have creative ideas how to reward people logging out.
nvoigt wrote:
I am willing to bet that adding real game content to our class and leveling experience would minimize afk usage as much as if not more than stopping the hologrind will.
I'm taking that bet. People don't AFK in their normal play time, people AFK 24/7 minus server reset. Why ? Because they can. Thats the only reason. They can gain a box of dancing xp over night or while at work. There is no reason not to, so no gameplay content whatever it may be, will stop anyone from gaining skill instead of logging out. The alternative to AFK is only ATK for a small minority and those will be caught by gameplay changes or adding content. The mass of AFKing is taking place while people should be logged out.
Ok nvoigt, this would be totally appropriate if was either (a) an afk leveler (b) pro-afk (c) a total noob (d) a buff bot ... considering that I was right there with you raising heck in the Ent 10 answers thread about the denial of the effects of afk on our prof and cantinas (I even told Blackman he was wrong, hello!) and I screamed and yelled in _this_ very forum about what would happen if afk was not dealt with fast up until then, considering all of that, I think you need to give me some credit here.
I think/thought/will think that we need some game content because I am of that "camp" that believes all classes in this game should have gaming content and worth in the prof structure. I did not however ever bring up content as a partial solution to dealing with AFK until _after_ pretty much _all_ of my AFK fears for this class had already happened. I do not see any sense in half assed adding game content such as player cantinas and buffs, with out understanding that it will of course bring in your more typical gamer (read wants more than a pretty av in a big 3d chat room).
Other pure social posters predicted long ago that bringing in content like this would change the player base for this class; they were against it, but for better or worse it happened anyway. So now we have a ton of people that understand things in a game like leveling, getting new skills and abilities, and can see end goals clearly. Well, nothing is there in between novice ent and Master Dancer that can even pass for a game for these people. You are in complete denial if you think that they'd rather let their game run for them instead of playing through the levels, but they want their end goals and there is nothing that they can do to actively help the leveling process along, nothing that will reward them in pay, nothing that will reward them as entertainment.
Did you even listen to any of the holo-tainers? Real gamers don't enjoy grinding, they enjoy playing. Doesn't mean they don't want end goals, doesn't mean they aren't social, and it certainly doesn't mean they want to break any rules. If afk was banned, like we had all been asking for, most of these players would dutifully sit there and attend their av through the leveling. They wouldn't be having fun, but they would do it. I'm not saying that isn't a better solution for getting rid of afk and possibly getting back something of what this prof was.
But! They are here, they will continue to be here after the holo days are over. They will stay for the buffs and the pc cantinas and the ability to heal bf, we might as well let them have some fun so they _can_ play their game on the way. I'm staying a dancer either way, whether the devs do a complete 180 and outlaw AFK, take away our buffs, and get us back to the 3d RP chat room Raph or whoever envisioned... OR if the afkers, buffbots, and macro shouters are allowed to permanently set up shop in all public cantinas and they turn us into bards to give us something else to do actively.
Either way! I don't care which it is even anymore... what I am so insanely tired of is fighting a losing battle. If we can't win on the afk front, and no, I don't count the end of the hologrind a win, I'm ready to start fighting for the other option. I pay $15 a month to dance and by golly I want to dance! I can shoot things in other games, I can do melee in other games, I can have kick butt magic in other games, I can go socialize till I'm blue in the face in TSO, There, or Second Life... but this is the only game that I can do all of that in and have the very cool option of being a _dancer_ whatever it might turn out to mean.
I want this forum to be positive and I want this class to start being fun and make some sense. How about we work on that, ok?
Niza wrote:
The reason people can't stand to actually play their dancer while going from novice entertainer to master dancer is because it is quite frankly boring.
Niza, I would prefer that you don't speak for the rest of us. I for one didn't find going from Novice Entertainer to Master Dancer at all boring, because it was what I wanted to do in the first place. I created my character and walk to the first cantina I could find. I grouped with people and talked with them. I talked and entertained all customers that came in with a smile on my face. Because I wanted to, to me the entertaining is fun.
For those that don't find it fun at all (combat players who are hologrinding), they are the ones for the most part that AFK Entertain. So, what JustG said about stopping AFK dancing with the removal of hologrinding I believe is true. Sure, there will be a few that may still do so, but not for the most part.
Anyway, I guess the main thing to do is to wait and see. There's no way to tell what the removal of hologrinding will do until it's removed really. I for one can't wait.
Kreistor wrote:
Niza, I would prefer that you don't speak for the rest of us. I for one didn't find going from Novice Entertainer to Master Dancer at all boring, because it was what I wanted to do in the first place. I created my character and walk to the first cantina I could find. I grouped with people and talked with them. I talked and entertained all customers that came in with a smile on my face. Because I wanted to, to me the entertaining is fun.
For those that don't find it fun at all (combat players who are hologrinding), they are the ones for the most part that AFK Entertain. So, what JustG said about stopping AFK dancing with the removal of hologrinding I believe is true. Sure, there will be a few that may still do so, but not for the most part.
Anyway, I guess the main thing to do is to wait and see. There's no way to tell what the removal of hologrinding will do until it's removed really. I for one can't wait.
That would be true if not for the FACT that afk didn't start with hologrinding. It started during beta when people's dancers were erased by character wipes and they were forced to go back through that maddening grind again to get to the level of skill that had the small benefits we get from master dancer. The first few weeks the game was live we saw cantinas packed full of AFK entertainers as those folks that were in beta and wanted their beta level entetainer skills back endlessly looped macros during the night and early mornings. There has never been a time when the game was AFK free and there never will be. As long as a profession doesn't have enjoyable interactivegame play it will be a prime canidate for AFK play... Even in games that forbid AFK game play. Games like UO for instance where there are entire programs written to AFK level upboring skills.
I want this forum to be positive and I want this class to start being fun and make some sense.
How about we work on that, ok?
I'm with you here. I do want more content. I do want missions that make sense. I do want to get rid of Macrotainers.
However, I want working solutions that follow a plan. Expecting point three to miraculously disappear because all players are "good" and won't want to level once content is established is not going to work. I'm not saying we should skip point 1 and 2. I'm just saying plan for all three while we are at it. And nothing short of banning will stop AFKers. My reasoning is detailed above and still stands. I don't want the developers to work on content and if that isn't going to solve every single problem to come back and say more wasn't planned and any additional stuff isn't fitting into the schedule. Call me greedy, but I want all of it.
Can they catch every single AFKer ? No. That's impossible. But the risk would surely keep them from holding 40 people mass-macrotainer parties in fixed locations. And I don't care for an AFKer dancing in his private home for dance xp. Thats not my problem. Actually outlawing AFKing is the simplest step of them all. A single line of text and it's done. It's not the coding that is hard, it's the decision to tell people that their easy way to Jedi is blocked that is hard. Because it will cost money.
Bottom line: I want a working solution. Not a fix in one part, somehow praying it might fix the rest, too, because people are "good". News at 11: People are not.
nvoigt wrote:
The mass of AFKing is taking place while people should be logged out.
Message Edited by Groovymarlin on 03-29-2004 03:54 PM
nvoigt wrote:
Bottom line: I want a working solution. Not a fix in one part, somehow praying it might fix the rest, too, because people are "good". News at 11: People are not.
Still not giving me any credit here. I said I was a flake, not totally out of touch with reality. I don't think morality plays into it at all. I think that people don't like to have their accounts banned. So if it became a ban-able offense, most people wouldn't do it. I'm not thinking anyone is "good".
If it is not a ban-able offense (which I haven't read any indication of this changing anytime soon and much to the contrary), then I think people who enjoy playing through a profession with game content would choose to do that over _not_ playing their game and just letting their machine run for three days straight. The biggest whine you hear from cantina grouping with zombies is "omg, this is so boring, why isn't there anything to do? why can't i make this go any faster?"... so yes, good or bad, I think those people would _love_ to have something to do in the game while they are getting to the end goal of MDancer for whatever reason they are mastering.
I don't think they are great people, I think they'd rather be using their machine to play a game rather than let a huge memory and processing hog run for three days straight on it.
I really feel like it needs to be pointed out that my response to this thread was almost identical to Tiaga's in the ent forum (mine was posted first) other than the small mention at the end of adding content. I have accepted that they are not going to stop AFK right now or anytime soon because that's what they've said. It's not what I wanted to hear, but I feel like the damage has been done and they'll either fix it or they won't. We've screamed the same thing for months now and it hasn't changed anything yet, so I don't see how continuing to do the same exact thing will help any.
Tiaga is in a much better position to actually keep fighting that fight, and if he thinks he can win, I say great. That's why I backed off when he asked me to. I don't think I misunderstood what he was saying, I think he disagreed with my opinion of continuing to chip away at afk problems by "handling them" i.e.: stop hologrinding, add content for the bored, make other ways to make money, blah blah blah. If he feels like he can still tackle the big scary AFK monster, cool. I support that and will try not to make trouble for him or the other corrs.
From where I'm sitting though, it looks like the best way I can help this class as a forum poster is to concentrate on the win/wins, where ever I can get them. Content is what I'm choosing to talk about, because I don't see anything positive from me continuing to scream "nerf the zombies, they stole my gig!"