Entertainer Archive
Thread: PLEASE take long dance/music macros out of the game!
Pendarin wrote:
I'm glad someone on the pro-AFK-macroing is stepping forward. Helps me understand why people do so.
To me, some of the reasons you mention are actually sucking the fun out of the profession. For instance...when you're finally able to play a new instrument or song, it means less to you than it does to someone who sat at their computer earning it.
The frustration of the people against AFK-macroing stems from the fact that those who do it (and those who aren't even in the profession) see the profession as some "easy" thing to do. It's not. At least, if you're at your computer actually playing.
That's where it hurts. Because of you (not you personally, but AFK-macroers in general), those of us who spent the time and effort are not given the recognition and respect we deserve.
That's why I believe AFK macroing should be subdued. It is too easy to circumvent months of play time. It should absolutely be difficult to get--that's the only thing that makes it rewarding to do so. Master Musician should be a title reserved for the people who endured, not the people who don't even play!
Anyway, that's where I'm comin' from.
Some thoughts. I'm concerned that we all are starting to delude ourselves into thinking that just because we've spent more time staring at a screen and just because we've manually mashed flourishkeys with our fingers we some how have a better right to the title than someone who has looked at the experience mechanism and found to to be extremely restrictive to the advancement of a casual player.
What makes live experience attainment engaging is not the fact that I get to watch my character do it -- it's the opportunity to play with a band, flourish (different flourishes) together and try and make some interesting music. Realistically, though, very few pickup bands seem to coordinate with any degree of skill, so there's not a whole lot of room for having a really grand time here.
What also makes it engaging is interacting with the patrons when you choose to do so.
I'm a firm, firm believer that someone who takes the time to learn their flourishes -- learning how to put them together to create something unique and appealing -- and someone who builds a clientele by being a friendly, non-automated entertainer is someone who will do alright in this profession and this game.
Let me say this too..
You don't deserve recognitition and respect for achieving Master Entertainer, Master Dancer or Master Musician. There's no skill involved and no one in this game deserves respect just because they can spend 50 hours (or whatever) playing it. That's not worthy of respect. What's worthy of respect is the musician who creates good music with their flourishes, not who sits at their keyboard and hits random flourishes.
I'm never going to respect someone's title -- and I don't think we should delude ourselves into thinking the Master Entertainer professions actually require any skill to get the title. They don't (except mebbe ID which requires some persuasion/customer satisfaction skills). They require time... and in two words -- Big Deal. Entertainment is easy. What's not easy is good entertainment -- and that has nothing to do with how you got to your skill level and everything to do with how you play when the time comes that you're at the keyboard.
I'll never understand the emotion of resentment. It gains you nothing, only makes you feel bad. Let go man, it's not worth the pain!
Quasinart wrote:
I've ran across several afker's myself...one guy actually had his macro set up so that when he ran out of action it would stop the whole band... I really hate the fact that these people log in then walk away and get all the xp. Why buy the game if you're not going to play it? I now refuse to teach any skills to people that I know have been macroing their way to the top...
Falryx wrote:
Some thoughts. I'm concerned that we all are starting to delude ourselves into thinking that just because we've spent more time staring at a screen and just because we've manually mashed flourishkeys with our fingers we some how have a better right to the title than someone who has looked at the experience mechanism and found to to be extremely restrictive to the advancement of a casual player.
What makes live experience attainment engaging is not the fact that I get to watch my character do it -- it's the opportunity to play with a band, flourish (different flourishes) together and try and make some interesting music. Realistically, though, very few pickup bands seem to coordinate with any degree of skill, so there's not a whole lot of room for having a really grand time here.
What also makes it engaging is interacting with the patrons when you choose to do so.
I'm a firm, firm believer that someone who takes the time to learn their flourishes -- learning how to put them together to create something unique and appealing -- and someone who builds a clientele by being a friendly, non-automated entertainer is someone who will do alright in this profession and this game.
Let me say this too..
You don't deserve recognitition and respect for achieving Master Entertainer, Master Dancer or Master Musician. There's no skill involved and no one in this game deserves respect just because they can spend 50 hours (or whatever) playing it. That's not worthy of respect. What's worthy of respect is the musician who creates good music with their flourishes, not who sits at their keyboard and hits random flourishes.
I'm never going to respect someone's title -- and I don't think we should delude ourselves into thinking the Master Entertainer professions actually require any skill to get the title. They don't (except mebbe ID which requires some persuasion/customer satisfaction skills). They require time... and in two words -- Big Deal. Entertainment is easy. What's not easy is good entertainment -- and that has nothing to do with how you got to your skill level and everything to do with how you play when the time comes that you're at the keyboard.
Thank you for the comments, Falryx. My point my be misunderstood, though, because your comments directly prove the point I was trying to make.
I was making the assumption that you can't not get involved if you've made it to Master Musician while being always at your computer actively playing. I couldn't imagine anyone finding sitting at their computer mashing keys fun. And that's my point. If someone is not going to get involved, then they might as well be AFK macroing (and most likely are), no?
Of all of the folks I met, I can tell without asking which ones AFK-macroed their way up and which ones actively played their character. Why? Because of all of the reasons you say.
So why shouldn't the title actually mean something? Why should you feel that people have to prove themselves even after they've made it to Master? THAT's what doesn't seem right to me, which is the very reason why I don't like AFK-macroing. It *degrades* the meaning of the title.
Dex1138 wrote:
[q]Dont group anymore its the same as macroing (getting xp for doing nothing)[\q]
Is it the same? How many successful RL musical entertainers have you seen where the whole act is one person? Not many, if any, I can tell you. For every Eminem or Madonna, there's a gang backing them up with instruments and vocals.
There's nothing wrong with grouping IMO, it makes sense. And since lots of people prefer not to tip, it's the only thing some of us have going.
umm yeah im sure eminem's and madonna's backup singers/dancers are making they same as they are uh huh sure they are, and what does grouping have to do with tipping? tips do get auto split into a group. If your talking about the xp generated your again getting something for nothing the person who is healing (you will notice by someone looking at them) is doing the work your just getting xp for being in the same group as them hence the same as macroing. i know lets ban all macros, factorys gone, harvestors gone im sure that would piss off the people who think afk entertainers are evil. Oh and for all the people that say you dont need to tip an entertainer cause they get xp from dancing/playing/healing next time you go buy something from a tailor/weaponsmith/armorsmith just tell "Hey make mea<insert anything crafted here> im not paying you for that you got xp from making it" there is no diffrence.
Im sorry if i come off as angry but someone telling me how to play a game i paid 50 bucks for and continue to pay monthly for annoys me, How about if i tell you how to spend your paycheck? or who to get into a relationship with? this is my game and i will play it how i want to play it and if i choose to log in for 8 hours and sit in a cantina on my day off and chat with people and joke around and have fun then when its time for bed i stay logged in to heal wounds for people that play later then i do or whatever why cant i do that? because i will reach master before an architect will? big fricking whoopdedoo an architect and a musician hmm yeah they sound about equal one picks up an instrument and the other has to go out craft find resources and make stuff over and over personally i respect people that choose the hard professions and make it to master i choose something easy is that hard for you to understand? maybe all entertainers should just be slaves ya know pets to be stored in a data and if your an entertainer class you will only be allowed to log in if said person removes you from their datapad. yeah that sounds like a good idea to me how about you all?
SOE wrote:
you may not use or distribute macros or other programs which would allow unattended game play.
Pretty self explanatory to me.
Also, you might want to read the start ofpart 6.
6. We may terminate this Agreement and/or suspend your Account immediately and without notice: (i) if you violate any provision of this Agreement; (ii) if you infringe any third party intellectual property rights; (iii) if we are unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide to us; (iv) if you violate any of the player rules of conduct located at the Game Site or The Station (as defined below in Paragraph 9) rules of conduct located station.com/en/termsofservice.jsp (either of which we may amend or supplement from time to time, in our discretion), or (v) if you engage in game play, chat or any player activity whatsoever which we, in our discretion, determine is inappropriate and/or in violation of the spirit of the Game.
To sum up. AFK Macroing violates part 7 of the EULA/TOS (above quote.) Violating part 7 allows SOE to suspend your account via section (i) of part 6. Furthermore, as per section (v) of part 6, if SOE determines that AFK macroing violates the spirit of the Game, they can suspend your account.
I don't care if you AFK macro or not (unless you're grouped with me), I just want you to know that you're violating the TOS you agree to each and every time you log onto the game. If you're ok with that, then I'm ok with that. Question is, will SOE be ok with it if they find you AFK macroing?
Nifty wrote:
Read the Terms of Service in the EULA. Here's the relevant part. It's in part 7 of the nice little text you all skip before putting your user name in.
SOE wrote:
you may not use or distribute macros or other programs which would allow unattended game play.
Pretty self explanatory to me.
Also, you might want to read the start ofpart 6.
6. We may terminate this Agreement and/or suspend your Account immediately and without notice: (i) if you violate any provision of this Agreement; (ii) if you infringe any third party intellectual property rights; (iii) if we are unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide to us; (iv) if you violate any of the player rules of conduct located at the Game Site or The Station (as defined below in Paragraph 9) rules of conduct located station.com/en/termsofservice.jsp (either of which we may amend or supplement from time to time, in our discretion), or (v) if you engage in game play, chat or any player activity whatsoever which we, in our discretion, determine is inappropriate and/or in violation of the spirit of the Game.
To sum up. AFK Macroing violates part 7 of the EULA/TOS (above quote.) Violating part 7 allows SOE to suspend your account via section (i) of part 6. Furthermore, as per section (v) of part 6, if SOE determines that AFK macroing violates the spirit of the Game, they can suspend your account.
I don't care if you AFK macro or not (unless you're grouped with me), I just want you to know that you're violating the TOS you agree to each and every time you log onto the game. If you're ok with that, then I'm ok with that. Question is, will SOE be ok with it if they find you AFK macroing?
the only problem with that is 1. sony put macros in the game no one asked them 2. give us a way to stop the macro so that if we do go afk for 5 mins we can stop it 3. how do you determine if somoene is afk? how long should a csr spam "respond to me or your account is gonna be suspended?" 1 time 5 times a hundred times, dont tell me you have never gotten up to get a drink, or something and ended up being gone more then 5 mins i will go you one better, i can log in now /startdance and never ever ever ever stop if i dont do a flourish im not macroing so thats ok right? the point is no matter what the tos says they can not enforce it without hurting people that are not by the letter of it breaking it.
BudaKhan wrote:
No AFK nerf eh? Haven't noticed that you autolog alot faster now?
Off topic: Nope, macroed all night and hit dancing 3.
I usually get tips when I perform a song, which will be easier once I get the lyrical style. I'll probably stop dancing for exp at that point, no reason to progress further.
Pendarin wrote:
Of all of the folks I met, I can tell without asking which ones AFK-macroed their way up and which ones actively played their character. Why? Because of all of the reasons you say.
So why shouldn't the title actually mean something? Why should you feel that people have to prove themselves even after they've made it to Master? THAT's what doesn't seem right to me, which is the very reason why I don't like AFK-macroing. It *degrades* the meaning of the title.
Hey Pendarin. My guess is that you can suspect who AFK'd their way to the top vs. people who didn't -- but you may also just be able to guess those people with some musical talent in real life against those who don't have it. When they don't understand how their flourishes work together that doesn't necessarily mean they haven't tried... it could mean they're just not any good at it.
I guess that's why I don't think the title will realistically mean anything -- because there's no garauntee of skill just by reaching the title (I will admit there's a greater likelihood of it if you play attended all the time). Now, should the title mean something? Perhaps -- but until you get the title for doing something other than staring at your screen for a long time, it's never going to mean anything in particular.
I guess that's my point. 
Doesn't matter how you got to Master really.. what matters is what you do with it.
If someone is afk in my group for longer than an hour...Im kicking him from group. I dont think its fair for them to gain entertainment healing xp while he isnt even there.
Again, I have never gone afk, and maybe its my own personal value but I dont think it reflects well on the group as a whole to have an entire cantina of dancing manequins. In coronet, of 17 people in a group, 15 were afk. The customers were making fun of them. Sure I got the most tips, but it still bothers me that they are essentially sucking experience.
People ask how they are sucking xp. If a high level dancer is in there, or say any dancer who is not afk and is interacting with the customers, the chances are patrons are going to watch that dancer. They are not going to be fixated on the afk macroer. I saw a girl advance 3 lvls in entertainment healing while she was gone all day. This isnt fair. No one was watching her. She never once had to interact with the crowd. She never had to take over inviting people.
My theory is this. If you guys want to afk macro fine, but do it in your own group. I wont keep you in mine and I know a lot of other group leaders who feel the same way. Dance all you like in your corner by yourself. Or go dance in your home.
If I want to get some macro time in, I go find myself a nice quiet spot somewhere and start it up. If I'm in a cantina, it just doesn't feel right to me to be AFK, so any healing skill I gain, I'll be there, but that's just my personal feeling. I really wouldn't want the devs to start messing about with the macro comands; I don't see this as something that's truly "broken".
That said, even as a musician, when I go into one of the busier cantina's and see 9 out of 12 entertainer's with a big AFK over their heads, it does seem a little ridiculous. I guess some people are just more into the attainment of skill gain then actually playing for the fun of it...or that's their idea of fun. Last night in one of the lonelier cantinas on Corellia (Kor), there was a wookie dancing in the corner AFK, but the most annoying thing was he had inserted a line every time he rested announcing "I am dancing on a macro. I will resume in 90 seconds". Even the customers found that annoying, this line cutting into the conversation every 5 minutes or so. Got to say, he did work as a great straight man for me, nothing like making fun of a wookie with his head banging against the corner wall 