Entertainer Archive
Thread: What do you expect to gain from /deny
I expect to get the ability to deny services to all the imperials in the world. =)
As for tips, well take the tip and call someone that cares. I never expected to make money waiting for people to tip so I did mining to supplement the income. Tips total about 50k, mining 1.5 million. Yup, seems fair.
I'm going to enjoy telling assholes to **edit** off and find another musician.
Killian Red - Bria - Rebel appointed imp destroyer.
I very much *want* to perform in public cantinas: they're where people end up congregating. Some of the entertainers are great people. Many of the customers are great people. But (even though this is one of the least offensive things that's happened to me) when a person can rush around the cantina shouting "La la la, I don't have to tip you! Hahahaha! You have to heal me!" and be right, something is very very wrong. It's not the lack of tips--it's the lack of any control.
Is /deny realistic? No, not at all. But if I have to put up with people coming and using my abilities while abusing me, with *no* way to stop them, I simply won't dance in public. And *that* hurts the entire set of entertainer professions, because the people who actually care can't stand to be there any more.
In my group's private cantina, we have the ability to ban people from the premises. This helps a heck of a lot. But of course, people don't come to our cantina all the time for healing: there's no cloning center nearby, many people don't know about it, and we don't have enough people to keep it staffed 24/7. We might be able to get more beginners to come out, except that there's a chicken and egg problem: less entertainers, people have to go back to town more for healing. Less people, beginning entertainers have to go back to town to get XP. Even though this is true, the ability to ban offenders means the place stays nice.
/deny isn't going to give us that in public cantinas. But for myself, it will give me back that feeling of self worth: not only don't I have to put up with peoples' abuse (/addignore), but I don't have to let them use my services while they're abusing me in front of everyone else. Will they still heal? Sure, I'm sure someone will heal them. Will they learn? Well, if they're offensive enough, they'll get a /report, and even if that takes a long time, I expect other people who see it will let them know it was unwanted. But... they probably *won't* learn, which is sad.
But that doesn't matter so much: I'm not doing it to make them better customers--I'm doing it for *me*, to regain my sense of self respect, which is the thing that really matters.
Kalor Kast - Master Bounty Hunter of ShadowfireSo a few of you want /deny so you can feel like you have some control over the molesters and griefers (which is what I said in my original post). Then what? They will treat you even worse for starters.I fail to see at all how that will improve the game, except as I said to give you a sense of power which you crave. They will still be healing one way or another, but they will be causing even more rucous in the cantina than if you had just /addignore'd them.
Is that small bit of "control" (the feeling of control actually)you will gain over a few annoying low lifes (and it is a few... some of you would have us believe that half of the people that come in are this way and that isn't true) worth potentially and very likely damaging the reputation of entertainers even further by giving people like cantinafly and others a way to (attempt to) force tips? No one is going to even bother trying to listen to public musicians anymore once that starts, they will all just take up novice musician and be done with it.
Let's go down this alley too: The Almighty Cantina Rules. Oh yea, here is one I can't wait to see play out. Now all of the players will have to learn a set of rules for each cantina they visit for fear of being /denied by the main group. Hypatia is a fan of the "no bar fights" rule I happen to know... and I have no doubt that if someone starts enjoying their character and *gasp* fighting around the delicate little flower (the man playing a delicate little flower that is) that both characters involved will be immediately denied services. The same would go for large pets and commando weapons... yup, you just have to come in the cantina and watch the amazing entertainers, no noise-making please, or you will be denied. /chuckle I can see it already, "Everyone deny Imperial01 right now! He is shooting a gun in here and IT ALMOST HIT ME! OMG, I'm so sensitive, how offensive, make it stop, you're ruining my gaming experience! CSR! CSR!"
So please allow me to sum up the list of things that /deny would accomplish and tell me if I missed something:
1. Sense of control over non-entertainer characters, particularly those that you find annoying. A feeling that you will some how have some sort of power over them and that they would even consider not griefing you if you /denied them.
2. The ability to feel as if you can force tips out of characters, while not ruining the reputation of the class which so many of you have claimed to be concerned about due to AFKers.
3. Ability to derive a set of "cantina rules" in every cantina, and subsequently pretend that you can enforce them by denying people a service they will still be able to get (since not everyone will use this) and/or could perform themselves for the low-low cost of 15 skill points and 100 credits. (ps- almost everyone has 15 skill points to spare, particularly those that spend their freetime griefing entertainers)
I don't think I've seen any other reasons, are there any? Are there any situations that could actually be solved with this command and not made worse? I doubt it.
Kalor_Kast wrote:
I think entertainers should pick who they dance/play musicfor, would solve the problem of 'afking' and seemingly alot of other issues.
I think this is a VERY good idea.
Could get a little annoying at times, but overall, it would be a way to stop the AFK-macro entertainers, AND allow us to not heal the lamers who insult us all the time.*COUGH*-Lord Maul-*COUGH*
Someone submit that idea to the Devs. I think it's even better than /denyservices
Tiaga wrote:
First of all Hijo, this is a troll. If you were debating the usefulness of /deny that would be one thing. But you are also calling into questions the morality of those who would use it.
Let me try this from a different light.. If I went into the med center, called all the healers gay, punched them, licked them, whatever.. Would you expect me to walk out of there healed? Because that very thing has happened to me in the cantina, yet they were still able to walk out healed.
And if you say that theres no way an entertainer could refuse their services logically.. You'd be surprised what at least dancers can do to make the show enjoyable for someone and not for someone else.
You're **edit** right I'm calling into question their morality, because a huge chunk of them have said that they will be using /deny to force people to tip them! Hell yea I question their morality. I also know a large group of entertainers that would use deny to manipulate the playing environment in cantinas - if you don't play by their rules - sorry, no healing for you!
Comparing entertainers to doctors is apples to oranges. To heal wounds takes resources, crafting experience (you have to have like pharm III to make str/quick/etc wound packs), time to craft... it's a pain in the butt. To heal mind wounds and BF, you have to stand there and flourish - oh you have to spend 250 credits on a slitherhorn, but it will last forever. Not really the same thing.
Kalor_Kast wrote:
I think entertainers should pick who they dance/play musicfor, would solve the problem of 'afking' and seemingly alot of other issues.
Do you really want to have to target and /allow everyone that walks into the cantina, particularly on a busy night? /cringe
Perhaps, when you /allow someone, they are added to a list of apporved listeners that never goes away.
You can then manage this list of people if someone starts harrassing you and add them to the Deny list.
I really do this that this could be an effective way to stop AFK-macroing for the most part.
They've done it for other professions(ie. Artisan), so why not do something like this for Entertainers?
Wouldn't it be much better if everyone was able to listen by default? And if you had to you could /deny them...
But a /allow or whatever is not needed.
No it isn't, but you are not understanding my perspective. The more musicians that use /deny, the more important that makes me because I will not use it. People are already usually appreciative when I play for them if it's not just in a cantina, but in the cantina it's expected and nothing special that I'm playing music for them. If a lot of people are /denying for no good reason besides wanting tips up front (which WILL happen) then my relationship with the listeners is that much stronger, because I am not asking for tipsor /denying service to them. It could be like when the game was new again...people /tell you they need a musician when you're off doing something else....makes you feel important, and it actually can earn you tips (though it's always nice to just help out for free for the sake of your reputation/relationship with clients).
Chessack wrote:
Waho wrote:
/deny will add more value to the profession because of the people who will sort of "grief" with it.
People will be wary of getting /denied and hopefully it would improve the client/musician relationship for those of us who do not use /deny. I'm not talking about tips, just about appreciation for the fact that I'm playing them music.
Is this really how you want the profession to be? "Pay us or else." That's not a very good atmosphere.
Hijo wrote:
You're **edit** right I'm calling into question their morality, because a huge chunk of them have said that they will be using /deny to force people to tip them! Hell yea I question their morality. I also know a large group of entertainers that would use deny to manipulate the playing environment in cantinas - if you don't play by their rules - sorry, no healing for you!
Comparing entertainers to doctors is apples to oranges. To heal wounds takes resources, crafting experience (you have to have like pharm III to make str/quick/etc wound packs), time to craft... it's a pain in the butt. To heal mind wounds and BF, you have to stand there and flourish - oh you have to spend 250 credits on a slitherhorn, but it will last forever. Not really the same thing.
Thats not what I meant and you know it. I agree with you that people who use it for extortion for tips aren't going to give entertainers a good name. However, what *you* said in the very first post... "Then there are those of you that say that you only want /deny to refuse service to people that are bothering you (yea right), but there is a flaw in your argument (lie):" You basically state that any claims that it is just about abuse is a lie. That calls into question the morality of anyone who wants to use it for harassment.
And what does effort taken have to do with harassment? Both of them heal wounds. The only difference is the method. And the fact that entertainers have no control over who they heal.
Yes, it is about control, or more specifically the lack of it right now. Guess what, if I don't like the environment in the cantina, I'll leave. One less entertainer there when you need it. Things like people bringing big pets in IS ANNOYING. However, that in itself is no reason to deny service. It's the ones who bring them in then get rude when they are asked to leave them outside. It isn't that entertainers want to control other players, they want to stop being used by them.
If you don't think that denyservice will make a difference with harassment, think again. Right now entertainers are like those british guards.. People can go up to them, make faces, mock them, and expect no retaliation. I'm sure for some people that IS their form of entertainment. However treating entertainers like that will drive them away MORE than the lack of tips will. By giving entertainers any control at all, they will be more likely to stay.
And /ignore is not always effective. If someone knows they are being ignored, they can abuse that to ridicule the person to everyone else. In truth, /deny, /report and /ignore are probably best used in combination for a lot of cases. Any one alone doesn't do too much... /report may, but it is a long term thing. /deny and /ignore are immediate things. One prevents them from directly bothering you, and the other prevents them from using you while they do it.
Chessack wrote:
Waho wrote:/deny will add more value to the profession because of the people who will sort of "grief" with it.
People will be wary of getting /denied and hopefully it would improve the client/musician relationship for those of us who do not use /deny. I'm not talking about tips, just about appreciation for the fact that I'm playing them music.
Is this really how you want the profession to be? "Pay us or else." That's not a very good atmosphere.
And beyond this, I don't know about the rest of you but I am in this game for roleplaying purposes. And OK, I will admit it, I am an IC (in-character) purist. Just exactly how in character is it for a Cantina Dancer to have an automated way to force patrons to tip her?
I don't recall the Twi'lek dancer girl in Jabba's palace having a /deny command. When she tried it (saying no) I remember her pretty little butt being chomped on by a larger, er, Rancor-ous creature. I don't recall Sny Snoodles /denying Lando Calrissian or C-3PO.
Where exactly is the in-themeness and IC-ness of /deny? How can anyone possibly justify it in character? /ignore, at least, I can see -- you can literally ignore another person. But /deny? The only way to deny services in character is to stop dancing.
C
So...do you feel that a concert is a "bad atmosphere"? That pretty much boils down to "pay us or else", doesn't it? And your examples...why should entertainers be put in the same position as one of Jabba's slaves? As for the "in character" use of /deny...I don't recall Jabba having his battle fatigue and mind wounds healed either. Almost nothing about the way entertainment works in this game has any basis in reality or Star Wars.
I also fail to see why being a roleplayer and wanting to earn credits in the game are mutually exclusive in your mind. Commerce is most definitely a part of Star Wars, both in the films and in the Expanded Universe products (books, comics, RPGs, etc.)
And just as a reminder to everyone here, I think we should all (myself included) calm down a bit. I've been a bit hard on certain people, and Hijo is just openly trolling. Keep in mind that the majority of people actually playing the game don't even read these forums. Try bringing up an OOC conversation about something we're arguing about so passionately here. You'll likely get a confused stare in response. Add that to the fact that the feature is already being added, and you can see that we're arguing a largely moot point. Let's see how this affects the game; I don't see any negative effects on the horizon, and obviously some of you do. All we can do now is wait to see who is right. Trading flames until someone has their forum account banned isn't going to help anything.