Entertainer Archive
Thread: Upcoming Changes to Entertainer and its Performance-based elites
Sylow
Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:31 am
#14
/points at his signature
I think the number of people with just the music tree of entertainer and no other boxes is minimal, isn't it?
If you're novice musician you already have 2 trees in entertainer...
It's just too much fun, hanging around with some friends, hunt came (for whatever reasons) to a small pause, we set up a camp, whip out our instruments and make some music... 
[I am definitely a battlefield-entertainer. Not too many of us around, especially since the functionality is not given any more in CU, but i would hate to loose it... ]
Message Edited by Sylow on 06-20-2005 05:33 PM
Cuit
Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:43 am
#15
hang on . . . let me get this straight . . .
we lose the only interdependance gameability we had (namely BF and its removal) and the skill points we used in the branches that went toward the things removed are being changed with stuff we already have?
I foresee the game becoming much like an elementary school dance . . . . boys on one side . . . girls on the other or if you prefer . . . combat types on one side . . .socialites on the other.
I find it kinda dumb (in my opinion) that when they went to trouble of making every otherproffession so dependant on others (tailorsneed scout goods,blaster/melee need weapon and armorsmith, everyone needs doctors, etc.) that they take away the only thing an entertainer does for the community otherthan eye/ear candy.
If the cantinas weren't empty already, they will be after this 
sad news . . . sad news altogether
Kutsumi
Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:52 pm
#16
This really is a shame. SWG has these unique professions as far as MMORPGsare concerned and they are letting them die.
I had something suggested to me in game today that I think is very fair.
Since entertainer is now just a hobby profession that serves no viable purpose in gameplay why not remove all the skill point requirement for it.
Make the ent professions the same as Politician for example. Anyone can do them, they don't count toward the 250 skill points you have to use.
At least then I think you will still have entertainers in the game, after a hard day using your combat skills you can all chill out and play around in the cantina.
Doesn't break gameplay in anyway since entertainers aren't going to have anything to contribute to gameplay balance and all that junk.
Chessack
Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:47 pm
#17
Dariane_Kamutsovy wrote:
I don't know about this one... It's logical with the rest of the system, but it will force a LOT of musicians who just WANT to make music to drop it all together.... Cause they now need a SECOND tree, just to be able to use the instruments.
What for? That line only gives you ONE sound -- bandfill. Admittedly it's a good sound, but the rest of the sounds are repeats (Ommni == Bandfill, Chid horn == fizz/Kloo, Traz == Slither/fanfar). The other two unique sounds (Mandi and Nalargon) have never been part of that line anyway. So basically, at most, you lose one sound -- the bandfill sound. Annoying, but you really aren't losing that many sounds, so I wouldn't get too worked up over it.
Perhaps we can convince them to put Bandfill in box 1 to compensate, so you don't need a whole line just for that ONE sound.
Even better, maybe we can convince them to make each instrument have a unique sound, which they should have done in the first place, or if not, then certainly the last two YEARS has been enough for them to do that.
I'm mostly a dancer who dabbles in music (though I am close to mastering that now, LOL), but I have to say were I a full-time musician, I'd be a lot more ticked about the lack of instrument SOUND variety than about them moving the certs around.
C
Chessack
Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:49 pm
#18
warrenbassist wrote:
It sounds like the Dancers will get the props, is there any chance of new instruments?
Screw the new instruments. I want the old ones that are different to have unique sounds. It is annoying that I have like 10 instruments but only 4 sounds (I can't play the nalg, but I can play the mandi).
Keep the instruments the same -- but give the Chid horn a different sound from the Fizzz, for crying out loud.
C
Dariane_Kamutsovy
Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:30 pm
#19
Chessack wrote:
What for? That line only gives you ONE sound -- bandfill. Admittedly it's a good sound, but the rest of the sounds are repeats (Ommni == Bandfill, Chid horn == fizz/Kloo, Traz == Slither/fanfar). The other two unique sounds (Mandi and Nalargon) have never been part of that line anyway. So basically, at most, you lose one sound -- the bandfill sound. Annoying, but you really aren't losing that many sounds, so I wouldn't get too worked up over it.
Dariane_Kamutsovy wrote:
I don't know about this one... It's logical with the rest of the system, but it will force a LOT of musicians who just WANT to make music to drop it all together.... Cause they now need a SECOND tree, just to be able to use the instruments.
Perhaps we can convince them to put Bandfill in box 1 to compensate, so you don't need a whole line just for that ONE sound.
Even better, maybe we can convince them to make each instrument have a unique sound, which they should have done in the first place, or if not, then certainly the last two YEARS has been enough for them to do that.
I'm mostly a dancer who dabbles in music (though I am close to mastering that now, LOL), but I have to say were I a full-time musician, I'd be a lot more ticked about the lack of instrument SOUND variety than about them moving the certs around.
C
I'm a Master Musician, Master Dancer, Master Entertainer and Master ID. I play this for fun, interaction, with both patrons as wel as OTHER entertainers. That being said, I know and agree there are lot of issues still, but it's about the "proposed outline" that I'm having a small problem with.
The point is, splitting these lines (from the basic outline it sees DANCER will get to make props, whereas the MUSICIAN only sees things removed and reshuffled) will hamper a lot of bands.
Sure, bandfill/omni sounds the same, but it's not ALL ABOUT THE SOUNDS!
For the ones who dabbled to go into Musician --x- (or dropping xx-x after cu because of it's lack of usefullness) now get another nerfbat hit. And I agree with the part that it is ridicilous the instruments are sounding alike. However for looks it's nice.
Message Edited by Dariane_Kamutsovy on 06-21-2005 06:32 AM
EH_Merlyn
Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:50 pm
#20
I said it before, I will say it again:
One of the things I enjoy the most about being a dancer is the ability to heal, if that is taken away I will be really angry. I actually don't think that gaining the ability to use moreprops is a worthwhile substitute for healingand I would have to seriously re-think why I am doing this at all. ( in fact I think it is an awful idea and am really shocked to read that it is even being considered) I think that if dancers are stripped of their ability to heal BF it will be amost unfortunate and sad thing for this game. It is not like most players, especially in smaller areas, come to a cantina especially to watch someone dance for no reason. There are precious few doctors around any more it seems to me a real shame to strip the BF heal ability from dancers / musicians as well. Might as well just give everyone a gun or make them glowy and send them off to fight. **really saddened by this news** seems to me that his game is becoming more and more a jedi vs non jedi game and everything else is left by the wayside.(I have nothing agianst the jedi either, just in case any one was wondering) but some balance would be nice.
**really saddened by this news** seems to me that his game is becoming more and more a jedi vs non jedi game and everything else is left by the wayside.(I have nothing agianst the jedi either, just in case any one was wondering) but some balance would be nice. Without a 'purpose' I have to ask what is the point of studying the dancer profession? Just being a decorative feature in the game doesn't sound like fun to me, and healing BF is one of the ways I get to contribute to my community and my friends.
merlyn- master dancer // Wanderhome
Mariki
Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:22 am
#21
These are RP professions and the skill point costs just don't jusify it. I responded to all the wasted skill trees by dropping them and actually giving my charactor useful skills. Now they want to add a bunch of trash to them and make instruments a separate tree? I am suppose to somehow justify two skill trees in musician for RP?
I feel SWG is really going to suffer from the removal of this RP element. I have already seen a drop in entertainers. If the dev's don't get real with this skill point thing, there are going to be even less entertainers. Personally I feel all dancer/musician trees should be merged with the entertainer trees and should be removed. Entertainer is all one should need and certainly more then a stretch to justify the skill point costs given the VERY little utillity entertains justify in SWG.
Dariane_Kamutsovy
Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:07 am
#22
Well I've given it some thought...
Here is the outcome (so far)...
Current situation
Entertainer
- Tree 1: ID
- Tree 2: Musician (songs + instrument certs)
- Tree 3: Dancer (dances)
- Tree 4: Dancer/Musician (wound/bf/inspi)
- Tree 1: ID
- Tree 2: Musician (songs + instrument certs)
- Tree 3: Dancer (dances)
- Tree 4: Dancer/Musician (wound/bf/inspi)
Musician
- Tree 1: Techniques (Instrument schematics + Effects)
- Tree 2: Wound healing (inspi?)
- Tree 3: Knowledge (songs + instrument certs)
- Tree 4: Musician Fatigue healing (bf)
- Tree 1: Techniques (Instrument schematics + Effects)
- Tree 2: Wound healing (inspi?)
- Tree 3: Knowledge (songs + instrument certs)
- Tree 4: Musician Fatigue healing (bf)
Musician
- Tree 1: Techniques (Effects)
- Tree 2: Wound healing (inspi?)
- Tree 3: Knowledge (dances)
- Tree 4: Musician Fatigue healing (bf)
- Tree 1: Techniques (Effects)
- Tree 2: Wound healing (inspi?)
- Tree 3: Knowledge (dances)
- Tree 4: Musician Fatigue healing (bf)
PROPOSED (drawing board) changes (note I shuffled the tree names a bit AND generalized a bit where the text were EXACTLY the same):
Entertainers
- Tree 1: ID
- Tree 2: Musicianship (songs only)
- Tree 3: Dancing (dances: no changes)
- Tree 4: Dancer/Musician (instrument/prop certs and instrument/prop schematics)
Musicians
- Tree 1: Techniques (effects only)
- Tree 2: Wound (inspiration and other enhancements)
- Tree 3: Knowledge (songs only)
- Tree 4: Fatigue (instrument certs and schematics)
Dancers
- Tree 1: Techniques (effects only)
- Tree 2: Wound (inspiration and other enhancements)
- Tree 3: Knowledge (dances)
- Tree 4: Fatigue (prop certs and schematics)
Some side notes:
* as it is now, a lot of the OLD Wound Healing/BF Healing clothes will become USELESS. Unless they will be converted to help with the NEW inspiration and enhancements...
* knowing SOE, the laziest thing to do is to have Musician and Dancer be able to give the SAME inspiration and enhancement options. In that case there are WAY too many similarities between Dancers and Musicians.
* as it is now, a lot of the OLD Wound Healing/BF Healing clothes will become USELESS. Unless they will be converted to help with the NEW inspiration and enhancements...
* knowing SOE, the laziest thing to do is to have Musician and Dancer be able to give the SAME inspiration and enhancement options. In that case there are WAY too many similarities between Dancers and Musicians.
In effect, Musicians are hosed: there are things removed but NO special ADDITIONS... Whereas the Dancer get additional stuff. Also when taking in effect the possibilities: A dancer has more dances already then a musician knows songs. A Dancer can dance with only Dancer --4- whereas to be really usefull, a musician should acquire --44!!!!
Things like a sp reducement, like ID might be interesting, but might also mean the end of things.
There might be pro/cons on this, so feel free to respond.
How I see it come together (2 views)
Entertainer
- Tree 1: ID
- Tree 2: Musicianship (songs, instrument certs)
- Tree 3: Dancing (dances, prop certs)
- Tree 4: Inspiration Stuff
Master Entertainer: as it is. An entertainer, as it is now can USE instruments (and props) but NOT make them.
- Tree 1: ID
- Tree 2: Musicianship (songs, instrument certs)
- Tree 3: Dancing (dances, prop certs)
- Tree 4: Inspiration Stuff
Master Entertainer: as it is. An entertainer, as it is now can USE instruments (and props) but NOT make them.
Carbaretier (pre-req: Entertainer -4-4 or --44)
- Tree 1: Techniques (effects)
- Tree 2: Musician (song, instrument certs/schematics)
- Tree 3: Dancer (dances, prop certs/schematics)
- Tree 4: Profession specific enhancment skills/abilities
Master C. would give the combined Master Mus/Dan abilities/skills and stuff (depending if you have tree 2, 3 or 2+3)
- Tree 1: Techniques (effects)
- Tree 2: Musician (song, instrument certs/schematics)
- Tree 3: Dancer (dances, prop certs/schematics)
- Tree 4: Profession specific enhancment skills/abilities
Master C. would give the combined Master Mus/Dan abilities/skills and stuff (depending if you have tree 2, 3 or 2+3)
I think thisCarbaretier professionwill be viable *if* all the effects, inspiration _and_ enhancement additions will be the same for both Musician and Dancer. It will
a) free up sp for most; mostly those who mastered both,
b) it will not add additional sp requirements for dabblers (musician --4-),
c) it's unambiguous and straight forward.
a) free up sp for most; mostly those who mastered both,
b) it will not add additional sp requirements for dabblers (musician --4-),
c) it's unambiguous and straight forward.
In case there will be DIFFERENT Enhancement/Buffs (ie depending on either being a musician doing a certain song or a dancer doing a certain dance), then i'd say (as an example):
Musician
- Tree 1: Techniques (effects)
- Tree 2: Profession specific enhancement skills depending on Musician (tree 3) skills
- Tree 3: Knowledge (songs, instrument certs)
- Tree 4: Theory(?) (instrument schematics)
- Tree 1: Techniques (effects)
- Tree 2: Profession specific enhancement skills depending on Musician (tree 3) skills
- Tree 3: Knowledge (songs, instrument certs)
- Tree 4: Theory(?) (instrument schematics)
and Dancer is almost an identical copy:
Dancer
- Tree 1: Techniques (effects)
- Tree 2: Profession specific enhancement skills depending on Dancer (tree 3) skills
- Tree 3: Knowledge (dances, prop certs)
- Tree 4: Theory(?) (prop schematics)
Pro's is that this approach will keep the Dancer and Musicians dabblers on the same ground: dancing --4- and musician --4- will not change they way they are now...
As in wishfull thinking:
I think however, because Dancers get a lot extra's (props) that Musicians should get more:
a) instruments
b) unique sounds for the instruments
c) more songs !
d) able to do things with the jukebox others cannot...
Well, flame away, I'd say 
Mariki
Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:06 am
#23
The changes in development are the deathblow to three professions. It really doesn't matter how many songs or dances they add if a major skill point investment is required for skills that haveno utillity in the game.
All skill points requirements need to be dropped for these professions as they are for RP purposes only. It just is not viable to ask people to give up all the rest of the content in the game for a RP profession. While this RP content is very important, they are asking too much.
Warryyr
Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:25 am
#24
Mariki wrote:
The changes in development are the deathblow to three professions. It really doesn't matter how many songs or dances they add if a major skill point investment is required for skills that haveno utillity in the game.
All skill points requirements need to be dropped for these professions as they are for RP purposes only. It just is not viable to ask people to give up all the rest of the content in the game for a RP profession. While this RP content is very important, they are asking too much.
We have inspiration buffs and soon we'll have profession-specific buffs for the elite professions...
We are hardly only for RP purposes. We have a role, and even with BF being removed we have a purpose outside of just RP'ing.
darkk1138
Tue Jun 21, 2005 4:58 pm
#25
Get rid of dancer and musician as elite profs. Stuff all into Entertainer like this:
Music Knowledge (Songs and Instrument Certs) (Music XP)
Dance Knowledge (Dances) (Dance XP)
Buffing and Effects (Enhancement XP)
Props and Instruments (Ent Crafting XP)
Make the grind a bit longer.
Make ID a separate profession, ID'ing can be very entertaining, yes, but it does not really fit there anyway.
[x] Everyone happy.
Music Knowledge (Songs and Instrument Certs) (Music XP)
Dance Knowledge (Dances) (Dance XP)
Buffing and Effects (Enhancement XP)
Props and Instruments (Ent Crafting XP)
Make the grind a bit longer.
Make ID a separate profession, ID'ing can be very entertaining, yes, but it does not really fit there anyway.
[x] Everyone happy.
Mariki
Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:08 pm
#26
darkk1138 wrote:
Get rid of dancer and musician as elite profs. Stuff all into Entertainer like this:
Music Knowledge (Songs and Instrument Certs) (Music XP)
Dance Knowledge (Dances) (Dance XP)
Buffing and Effects (Enhancement XP)
Props and Instruments (Ent Crafting XP)
Make the grind a bit longer.
Make ID a separate profession, ID'ing can be very entertaining, yes, but it does not really fit there anyway.
[x] Everyone happy.
Actually I would include ID in there also. They were also gutted with the CU and no longer have a combat aspect. Sure changing appearances can be fun but its hardly a game in itself and not something I would think would keep you in SWG day in and out.
It looks like BF is going away and frankly, it was never that much of an issue. Watching an AFKer cured it anyways. Inspiration buffs, same thing but their effect is rather minor anyways, certainly not enough to justify two elite and one starter proffesion to give the same buff.
New buffs coming, yeah right, I'll believe that when pigs fly. I suppose they will come along right after the Xantha... I been here two years and never seen anything viable come along, I no longer ask for anything and actually get amused reading the big wish lists some people write. Big significant buffs are history, they go counter to the CU. Its not going to happen and you will get miserable and old waiting for them. If they screw up any proffession so that you almost have to have one, you will have the same animosity you had when combat peoplehad to come to entertainers and thats no good for anyone. You will also promote buffbots.
I fully agree with merging all the professions into the one entertainer proffesion or alternatively, just removing all the SP for the entertainer proffessions. I think either of these two things will preserve the proffessions and may even enhance them.
As far as the inspiration buffs, Ihave no real comment as they are too insignificant to worry about.It really doesn't matter how long it takes to buff someone as this is all downtime anyways. Since a nov entertainer can give one, does it really matter that a master musician or dancer can give one faster? I think not... Same with BF before it goes away... So a master can do it faster... so it will take a couple minutes with just a novice, big deal. These are not things you base an entire elite profession on.