Entertainer Archive
Thread: Healing XP slowing to a snail's pace?
JFreeman wrote:
Cutedge wrote:
Since you're removing BF or planning to do so, can we at least get confirmation that won't be doing the same to wounds?
I'm not even an entertainer. I came here trolling the dev tracker, but please don't remove BF. Make it heal faster, but don't remove the need for it.
SWG is unique because it forces interaction between players. You are required to find a doctor. You have to find an entertainer and watch/listen. You used to have to wait with others for shuttles. It promotes healthy interaction with fellow members of the community. Please don't change this.
Message Edited by Cutedge on 06-17-2005 01:19 PM
We want entertainers to be more like 'entertainers', and less like 'healers'.
In general, we don't want to force interaction. You should go to watch an entertainer because you want to, not because you have to. It'll be better for this to be a positive interaction ("I go see an entertainer to get something good") rather than a negative interaction ("I go see an entertainer in order to get rid of something bad").
*cough* slicing bonus *cough*
JFreeman wrote:
Yes, it's too slow.
We want to change the 'healing' line to a 'props' line that allows you to craft and utilize 'stage props' (weapons, armor and so on that just look like weapons and armor). We're increasing the xp rate gain overall, and removing battle fatigue from the game entirely. We have some other enhancements to the entertainer professions that we want to do as well (profession-specific inspiration buffs for non-combat professions), but this is what is currently in development.
Jeff, you know I'm one of your biggest fans.
But this is WRONG WRONG WRONG
BF is good because it brings a level of realism to this game. Soldiers (and I have been one) cannot go on forever, no matter WHAT macho posturing goes in. The lack of sleep, rest, and yes, entertainment, significantly degrades combat effectiveness over time. This isn't imagination, this is reality.
BF, if anything, should debilitate combat effectiveness on a logarithmic curve. You get over 250 points of battle fatigue, and you start to notice your accuracy degrading, your speed reducing, your ability to mitigate damage decreasing, your ability to shake off states growing less and less effective. This is needed to enhance the emersiveness of the game, and toput a cost tothe endless zerging that creates situations where combat becomes tedious rather than fun and diminishes both the PvE and PvP experience.
Futhermore, depriving entertainers of a meaningful, useful, upfront role in the game is not right. They need to be needed, and a game mechanism needs to drive this point home. BF and the inspiration buffs are those mechanisms. This is an aspect of game balance.
Because no matter what you say, there is a need to FORCE some players to interact with others. You've decided to FORCE grouping on everyone who is in combat to take on high end content; yet you dont see the philosophical inconsistency of not requiring players to get out of combat and lick their wounds a bit? This SHOULD be part of the virtual reality, instead you're taking SWG down the road of the MMOFPS, not an MMORPG.
A lot of players need to be prodded into getting out of their shells and interacting with others, This is an ideal mechanism for that, makes good gaming sense, makes good emersion sense, and makes this game just a tad less cartoony than it is otherwise.
With the removal of mind wounds and even mind buffs already as well as the large reduction in BF accumulation, I feel that the entertainers' link to the combat players has already been largely severed. Granted I think mind buffs were problematic and fostered an atmosphere that hurt the entertainer-combatant relationship due to a perceived need that they were required for any combatant play so I'm glad that dynamic has been removed. While inspiration buffs are, I think, a better type of link to have with combatants because there is no feeling of necessity to get one, they still fall into the area of 'combat prep time', and the problem with that is that when combatants, at least, want to get one, it's because they already have plans of what they want to go and are generally anxious to get going on whatever adventure they have planned or to rejoin a group that's waiting on them.
Where I think the entertainer-combatant dynamic always worked best was during downtime either after a major outing or between adventures when the combat players either didn't have something to do or needed to take a time-out to get wounds and BF healed. That was when they could talk about the big hunt they were just on, or the massive PvP battle that just took place, and this worked best in the very beginning of the game, before mind buffs and when very few people knew about AFK macros. BF and mind wounds were the catalyst for this sort of interaction, but now mind wounds are gone, and BF is minimal. If BF is removed entirely, then I am concerned that there will be little need for interaction between a large group of players, the combatants, and entertainers especially when it seems that it was the intention that entertainers should rely on combatants for a large part of their income in the form of tips.
In principle I like your statement about wanting "entertainers to be more like 'entertainers'", and I would hope that we will be given expanded means by which to put on increasingly impressive performances. At the same time, though, I worry that this may also mean less connection to the rest of the game. Certainly the concept of coming to see an entertainer for something good rather than to get rid of something bad is a good idea, but there are two things about this that trouble me. First is that I don't yet see what the "something good" is yet that we will provide that will create a stronger and more positive link between entertainers and combatants (though I do see how non-combat, prefession-specific enhancements could help link us to other professions such as crafters). Secondly, with no more mind wounds and BF, the "something bad to get rid of", I'm afraid that combat downtime could largely disappear. The idea of "something bad to get rid of" is not a bad one, and that's a large part of what the doctor profession is based on. For entertainers, it gives people a reason to take a little timeout, come to the cantinas, and seek out entertainers. I'm not sure from what you've suggested so far, that this type of interaction will continue to exist. Certainly even without BF at all, players can take downtime whenever they like, but then they may have no need to go anywhere in particular and therefore no real reason to go to a cantina or seek out an entertainer.
Now maybe my concerns are unfounded because you have some more ideas about these potential problems, but these are my thoughts based on the concepts you've mentioned so far. If there is more coming, I hope that you will feel free to share those ideas with us as well when you're ready. If not, I hope that you will take into account these concerns as you continue to shape plans for the future of the Entertainer profession.
Thank you.
Message Edited by DanceRulez on 06-17-2005 12:52 PM
JFreeman wrote:
We want entertainers to be more like 'entertainers', and less like 'healers'. In general, we don't want to force interaction. You should go to watch an entertainer because you want to, not because you have to. It'll be better for this to be a positive interaction ("I go see an entertainer to get something good") rather than a negative interaction ("I go see an entertainer in order to get rid of something bad").
I agree with some of the others that if BF is removed the Entertainers need to be given something else. Sooo... heres my thoughts on things.
I would really love to see more community based mini-games put into the system and actually have an old post on it here. I'm not pushing this to be a huge "chat" game but to allow interaction beyond the hunting/combat experience. Much like the cantinas use to be.
I would love to see player placed gambling tables and machines. Thepost mentioned above details exactly how I would see this working. I think the placement of these devices should be specifically certed to entertainers. Whether or not they should be entertainer craftable is something I'm unsure about.
Jukeboxes. These are available as a player event perk I believe, but I would love to see them craftable by entertainers. I would also like to see the entertainers able to craft music chips that could be loaded into the jukebox so they can be played and enjoyed while crafting, decoratin, or hosting a Player Event. I do not think that these should give buffs or heal damage. They would only be for entertainment/atmosphere.
I would like to see props such as fans, dummy guns and swords, and the like for entertainers. Some flame batons and some fire blowing action would be great. I think the fire effects are allready in the game.
Desguise kits crafted by Image Designers, that would act as a cross betweeen camoflouge kits and IFF. They would confuse NPCs into thinking you were of a similar faction for a set amount of time with a chance to fail just like mask sent and camoflouge.
Pre-set makeup/hair/body arangements that last a set amount of time. Created using a base template that when applied to a character these items would temporarily alter a PC's apearance. Would have to be species specific. Would be great for Player Events and general fun.
Message Edited by Mizraal on 06-17-2005 02:41 PM
I hate the idea of it being a Musician or Dancer ability.
Image Designers honestly need something like this. Something that fits contextually within their profession, has an interdependent role with other professions, and gives them a saleable good similar to the Droid modules and instruments.
I hope that the loss of battle fatigue will be adequately balanced by whatever extra buffs we are given. Keep in mind that fully templated characters rarely if ever need the skills of an Entertainer currently.
Also, on Wired.com, Julio Torres mentioned ten new songs and a new musician flourish system being on their way. Is there any chance of more details regarding this or the dancer equivalents?
jcarlson34 wrote:
JFreeman wrote:
Yes, it's too slow.
We're increasing the xp rate gain overall, and removing battle fatigue from the game entirely. We have some other enhancements to the entertainer professions that we want to do as well (profession-specific inspiration buffs for non-combat professions), but this is what is currently in development.
So with no BF anymore this means one less skill the Jedi Healer tree has in an already weak Jedi tree. The Healer tree will really need to be revamped after this to add more value to it...
I will be looking forward to seeing more information on this subject and I will reserve my opinion until I see more details. I do have some concerns however that the game continues to be overly simplified as acost to balancing the game but do enjoy having the devs bounce ideas off us more(the more interaction the better). Balance is needed but not appriciated by the player base if it involves continuely nerfing everything to achieve that balance.
Im sorry but WTH are you talking about?
I have seen no jedi w/o a line in healing simply because they need it to stay alive in any sort of combat.
Any jedi that wants to stay alive in PvP needs the 1500 heal.
Do not increase there healing abilitys any more for the sake of all SWG
ArthurDentOnBria wrote:
JFreeman,
From a non-entertainer's prespective, it's much much harder to find someone to heal health wounds then battle fatigue. If the motivation is to do what you say, that is what you should be more concerned with. In my experience, battle fatigue never has been a problem.
A central issue in this game is interdependency, and encouraging it. I don't see an armorsmith because I want to - I see him because I have to. I *need* armor. Now, if I didn't need armor, I wouldn't see him. If dancers and musicians don't have anything that people need, they won't get seen either. How are entertainers supposed to make a living if they don't have anything that people need?
When interdependency has been too much of a burden, we've been told "working as intended." Droid engineers need to ferret out a master artisan in order to make anything, Armorsmiths have to ferret out a tailor, and so forth. That's the way the game is supposed to work, according to the other professions. So why are entertainers kept out of the loop? Why do we force artisans to work together, force people to interact with doctors and merchants to get necessary goods and services, but forcing people to spend five minutes with an entertainer is not right.
Now, if everything given to entertainers is better than BF healing, then that's great. We want a lot of things for the profession and I hope that they will be implemented. But I fear that will not be the case. ID's lost stat migration and were not given any new talents to compensate. With all three of the entertainer professions lacking in content, it is quite nerve-wracking to entertainers to be told that they are losing a given ability, and being told about some speculative new ability that may or may not happen. Until the entertainers have a design document in hand, these fears will not be put to rest.
In short, this may not be a bad thing, but I find it disturbing that this announcement just appears out of nowhere without discussion or a firm set of plans.
NickHeel wrote:Wow...poor entertainers.
I'm sorry but this makes no sense to me. From my experience as a community leader for the Smuggler Forum, I must say that the Devs really have no idea what increases content and immersion with this game. I mean, I've known this for a while. Just...stating the obvious.
While I agree with adding things to entertainers to actually make them entertaining, I don't think that should cause them to lose usefullness. Always add content and player interaction in a massively multiplayer game...never remove it.
I have to agree... if you have a profession with no usefulness to combat types, many pure combat-types will stay away enteirely. Right now, the entertainers have a chance at an audience, but if that slightly forced interaction is removed, I feel that many will not have a chance to enjoy what entertainers do because they will never see one. They have no reason to visit the cantinia; they won't visit. If you have to go visit an NPC or something, you might not stop because you can't hear the music. This could be good, but I see cantinas going the way of the dodo. Just my .02 creds
Sure, it's great to meet up at a cantina before a group heads out, but you don't want to create that "Needed Preperation Fix" all over again.
People like to log on and get going.
It's after and inbetween that, when people can enjoy some relaxing "down-time".
And as far as making Entertainers more entertaining than healing... that's just not realistically going to happen.
People play this game to be entertained... an avatar isn't going blow someone's mind away with any entertainer-related game mechanic... it might be fun and it might be cool, but it's not going to truly serve the function of real entertainment for the in-game audience.
The soothing aspect of entertainment is simulated best by the game mechanic of healing.
How you plan to replace that (If you plan to do so) is very difficult to imagine.
- Omadda Szool
Kauri
May the force be with you.
Indeed. Thanks for the info.
Tralmek wrote:
Thanks for posting here, JFreeman.
Message Edited by Tralmek on 06-17-2005 12:45 PM
Chessack wrote:
Non-ents have always seen BF as a kludge designed to force them to interact with Entertainers. They hate it as a result, and tons of antipathy toward entertainers was generated in the process. Taking BF away will be loved by almost all the non-Ents in the game, and as long as they replace our healing exp with something else for us, I see no reason why it would be a bad thing.
I would much rather be able to give profession-specific buffs than heal BF... especially if as one dancer suggested, each song or dance buffed a unique thing, so that if the player came in and wanted an "accuracy buff" as a dancer, you'd have to know that's the Lyrical2 dance and do that for them.
Chessak, I'm afraid I have to vehemently disagree with you on this.
My primary character, created in early July of 2003 less than a week after launch has always been combat oriented. Well, with the exception of some hologrinding to architect.
Battle fatigue isn't a kludge. I see battle fatique as a very elegant way of simulating the real world reality of what combat does to real people. Furthermore, it creates an realistic interdependency that makes entertainers not a luxury, but a requirement. Real world military organizations know this and make provisions for providing entertainment, even if it's only a soldier with a guitar or a lute or a balalaika playing for his fellow soldiers to relieve the stress of combat during a lull.
Someone pointed out that the real problem with cantinas and AFK entertainers began with the percieved need for a "positive": the mind buff. The "negative" of battle fatigue wasn't creating a demand for AFK entertainers. The need for the mind buffs was. One could also argue that the entire holomadness period of grinding with macros to knock off another profession had something to do with it too.
Some developers need to realize that 'negatives' can often provide far greater incentive for behaviors than 'positives'. The battle fatigue mechanism should not only not be eliminated, it needs to be expanded upon. BF should realistically degrade combat effectiveness the more it accumulates. Troops need to be rotated out of combat for R&R. Every military commander knows and acknowledges this requirement. SWG should NOT further degrade realism and immersionby removing an elegant and effective means to simulate this reality. I see this as more dumbing down of the game, more artificiality like the accursed level system, more destruction of the original concept of a virtual Star Wars reality.
Quite frankly, this isn't just about entertainers. This is about the integrity of the game, which has been steadily deteriorating since launch through backpeddaling of the original concept.
I don't hate entertainers because I need them; I really do enjoy down time and interacting in cantinas. Flirting with some twi'lek dancer and exchanging bon mots with a slitherhorn player is one of the better parts of the SWG experience while they're soothing away my battle fatigue. Role play is what really makes this fun, and if the Quake FPS I want a flashlight crowd doesn't like that, well, tough.