Entertainer Archive
Thread: Entertainers and AFK / Unattended Macroing...
From the End User License Agreement:
7. You acknowledge that you are bound by the terms and conditions of the Software License and Limited Warranty that accompanies the Game. You acknowledge and agree that you have not and will not acquire or obtain any intellectual property or other rights, including any right of exploitation, of any kind in or to the software, artwork, music, and other components included in the accompanying CD-ROM (the “Software”) or the Game, including, without limitation, in any character(s), item(s), coin(s) or other material or property. You may not use any third party software to modify the Software or to change game play. You may not create, facilitate, host, link to or provide any other means through which the Game may be played by others, such as through server emulators; additionally, you may not engage in matchmaking for multi-player play over unauthorized networks. You may not decrypt or modify any data transmitted between client and server; you may not use or distribute macros or other programs which would allow unattended game play. You may not take any action which imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load (as determined by us) on our infrastructure. You may not buy, sell or auction (or host or facilitate the ability to allow others to buy, sell or auction) any Account or any Game characters, items, credits or copyrighted material or any other intellectual property owned or controlled by us or our licensors.
This post is intended to address an issue which I have been experiencing on a regular basis on the Intrepid server, specifically in the Daeric Cantina on Talus, but I seriously doubt that the issue is confined to that location and to that server.
I am not going to give the names of any of the people involved. I am merely going to describe the situation as it began and up to its conclusion.
About four nights ago, I came into the cantina after a long, drawn-out session of resource sampling (no battle fatigue and no mind damage)to adveritse my services to fellow players who were in need of a few extra resources sampled for a fair price, and tojust wind down before logging off for the day. There was only a single musician playing. Since I had no injuries, I had no need to actually listen to him.
I saw a chat bubble pop up over his head that contained the message "Please tip the Entertainer."
Knowing how infuriating (or at the very least, annoying) that the practice of asking for tips is to many non-entertainers (and even many entertainers), I sent him a /tell saying "That's a goos way to NOT get tips." to which I got an AFK autoresponse saying essentially that the player was at work and would not be back for several hours.
Now as an entertainer myself on the Naritus Server, and one who puts in actual time to entertain (though I haven't been on in a while because my surveyor on Intrepid has had several time-consuming orders to fill), I was annoyed by this greatly. Here wasan individual who is not only asking for tips, but also not even being around to play the game. So I sent a mail explaining the situation to him. I stated that the Terms of Service forbid unattended macroing. I know that I was a little stern, but I was not insulting.
The next day, he had sent me a mail that WAS inflamatory, and he accused me of threatening him (because of my mentioning that the EULA states that failure to comply with the rules could result in banning). He also indicated that the only reason he set up the macro was so that he could ensure that there was an entertainer performing constantly.
When I got to the cantina, his character (which was AFK at this time as well) was just standing there with instrument in hand but not playing. At first, I figured that his Action bar had hit zero and his macro didn't have the sit-delay-stand-play line in it. But I would soon discover that I was wrong. He was running a different macro indicating that because of me (Ackotisock)he would no longer be providing a service by AFK macroing, and that if anyone had an issue, they could mail me and tell me what they thought. I tried to help the guy so he wouldn't get in trouble, and not only did he accuse me of threatening him, but he also set up a macro (still violating the EULA) intended to inspire others to attack me. The fact that nobody emailed me complaining about my actions is beside the point. I could hafe reported him for that, but this IS a game and we're supposed to have fun.
I sent him another email, asking him to stop trying to smear my name,and Iassured him that I was not making threats, but simply trying to inform him of something he may not have noticed, and so he would know that according to the EULA, which we ALL have to agree to every time we play, Unattended Macroing is against policy. And because of what I believed was his sincere intent to help the community, even though his methods were against the rules, I tipped him 1000cr
The conversation between he and I improved, and so there was no further trouble with him.
Now two nights ago, I came into the cantina, and there was an entire GROUP of entertainers that were all but one AFK. The individual I mentioned earlier was among them.
Last night, the same group was there, but they were lives. I jokingly said "The other night, I came in and saw a whole group of entertainers that were AFK. If I see that again, I'm going to take a screenshot and caption it "New Band at the Cantina: 'Absence of Presence'". I immediately got hit with a denial of service as a response. Granted, there was no way for them to know that I was just joking. But it obviously struck a nerve.
Now I am not calling for anyone to be banned, or for anyone to start flaming anyone else, but I wanted others in the Entertainer community to know what went on, and to give your opinion of both MY actions and THEIR actions. If I am in the wrong, I'll eat the crow and issue a formal apology. If they are in the wrong, I would simply like for them to know it.
After this, I will consider the matter closed. But I do warn anyone that if I receive threatening mail in-game because of this, I WILL report the sender. I will not reply to them, so there will be nothing that can be viewed as argumentative conversation. Just leave me alone. And if I get hit with instant Denial of Service if I walk into the cantina, I will delete my character and start a new one on a different planet. No skin off my nose, as the only skills I had advanced were Surveying, and that's all I need for what my character does.
As I said, I play an entertainer myself. I know what it is like not getting tipped and for people coming in and making snide remarks like "look at the carebears!" and stuff like that. Entertainers get treated far more rudely than they should, and they deserve tips for having to deal with jerks and to make up for a lack of worthwhile income in the game. However, Even though I know the profession, I refuse to tip AFK entertainers, and if I were an entertainer running an AFK-macro, I would not expect a tip. See, I prefer to PLAY the game. And when I cannot be there, I log out and free up the space in the cantina for someone else to play. It's called ethics.
I've given my standpoint and opinion, now what is yours?
In Christ,
G. B. Jacskon
However, it is a hotly debated issue, and the people who do it will find any reason to point out that the EULA does not apply to that specific use of macros, and that it is an intended way to play despite the devs saying they want to do something about it.
Tiaga wrote:
However, it is a hotly debated issue, and the people who do it will find any reason to point out that the EULA does not apply to that specific use of macros, and that it is an intended way to play despite the devs saying they want to do something about it.
You're right about that... I don't post often on the profession boards, But I have read the AFKers arguments defending their inactivities. However, when I read the EULA, I see no distinctions regarding this type of AFK macro use or that type. I just see where it says that any use of macros that allows unattended gameplay is against policy. So I abide by that, and think that it is in everyone's best interests to do so.
If the developers really want to do something about it, then they should conduct random evaluations of cantinas durring the periods of less server activity and make note of the ones who are AFK, and refuse to respond to any /tells they innitiate.
They should block the ability to activate ANY macros on offending players' account for a full week with a warning that if they are caught doing it again, macros will be permanantly blocked for that player's account. All servers. all characters.
In fairness, this action should be taken against surveyors and artisans in general who are caught macro-sampling unattended.
Entertainers who are serious about wanting to play, and doing the work that is required to advance through their respective professions can only do so effectively when they are the ones being listened to or watched and tipped for their services. This does not happen when there are groups of AFK entertainers getting audience attention. It hurts the profession as a whole by causing non-entertainers to complain more and more about having to even go to the cantina at all, let alone feelingobligated to tip the entertainers.
I'm all for playing the game how you want to play it. But AFK macroing is NOT playing the game
For an acceptable use of Entertainment Macros, one that runs through a playlist of songs, playing each for five minutes and switching with no /ui action loop command in it and no automated flourishes works. Each song would start with the /startband and end with /stopband command. I've run this macro myself with my entertainer. I control the flourishes for my character myself. I greet patrons as they come in the door. I wish them luck when they leave... And when I do get a tip, I divide it among all of those grouped with me to make sure that we each get something. When I play with the group, I make sure that the group is fairly treated. And I've noticed that most of the time when I play like this, we get tons of live entertainers in the cantina with a wide assortment of instruments. Everybody is cracking jokes and having a good time, Tips or no tips.
This does not happen with a cantina full of AFK macro-runners. Nobody likes a dead band.
In Christ,
G. B. Jackson
Let EULA enforcers (SOE Employees playing characters dressed in local law enforcement uniforms (Fed Dub or CorSec for Correllian worlds) wander from city to city for an hour looking for people violating the EULA. Have them send the character a /tell requesting a response. If they get none. Have them booted (/dump; /sit; /logout) and an email sent to the character stating that due to failure to comply with the EULA, their character was logged out of SWG. Have it also say that should they be caught again, their ability to run user-defined macros will be suspended for three days on all characters.
On the second offense, the same thing happens, except that now they are warned that a third offense will merrit a 30-day suspension of user-defined macros on all characters.
A third offense would merrit permanant suspension of macros account-wide
This allows them to enforce the EULA without banning anyone. They'll just have to actually play the game they are paying for.
an /afkreport command should also be implemented which would send the name of the target and a waypoint of his location to the EULA enforcers.
EULA enforces should also serve as general helpers as well. They should know the city theu operate in like the back of their hand, and any new (or confused) character should be able to walk up to an enforcer and ask for directions or general assistance. These characters should also be givenmaster Marksman status, and could be called upon by players to help.
So we have a service that helps the players and enforces the EULA at the same time.
Thoughts?
In Christ,
G. B. Jackson
This tells you that deep down inside they know they ought not to be doing it. These are not some innocent punk kids who think it is all right. It's wrong and they know it... or else your joke that you were going to take screenshots and post them publicly would not have seemed, to them, like a threat. If they really believed the bilgewater they try to sell that they are "not in violation of the EULA", then why would that screenshot threaten them? People who are doing nothing wrong would not be threatened by public exposure. Only someone with something to hide would be.
That incident, right there, gives the utter lie to every one of them who says "It's not against the rules; I have every right; it's just how I want to play the game." If those statements were true then they would not be the slightest bit concerned that their names and AFK-ness would be shown openly to the world. Which means they know better, at least deep down inside... they just won't admit it because they know what that would mean, also.
Ha! Well done! You have exposed them for what they really are.
/salute
C
Hidomatzu wrote:
Well lets look at it this way. If Sony didn't even envision afk macroing then why did they include this highly developed macro system into the game? Why not just remove the entire macro system all together?
Peoplecan ownsteak knives.One personcan use it to cut the juicy and delicious steakhe eats for supper. Another personcan cut someone's throat with it. One use is socially acceptable and harmless. The other is antisocial and criminal. It is not the knife that is responsible for either action, but the person who uses it. The knife is merely a tool.
SWG's macro system is a tool as well. Those who use it constructively do so in a way that enhances the gameplay experience for both them and others. For one thing, it makes roleplaying a lot easier. For example, many people in cantinas can't stand it when someone brings out a huge pet that ends up with its head through the ceiling. I have a macro set up where all I have to do is hit a key, and the following happens:
You!!!; /pointat; /pause 3; Get that out of here Now!; /pointleft
It usually brings a lot of LOLs from people, and adds to the roleplaying element. It is a macro, yes. But it doesn't gain me anything.
Gaining entertainer exp isn't the only thing its used for. Rangers/Scouts can use it to gain camping exp, artisans use it to gain resources and surveying exp, medics/doctors can use it to automate healing, and so on and so forth. It can be used to make hunting easier by creating harvesting macros that automate getting hides/bones/meat
And doing these things while the player is not at their keyboard is just as against the EULA as unattended entertainment macroing. Read that line in the EULA again. When you click that "I agree" button, you are bound to a rule that says you will not use or distribute macros that allow unattended play. Which means, If your characteris gaining XP or performing activities and you are not attending the play session, then you are in violation of this rule and therefore subject to whatever action SOE deems necessary.
As mentioned, I think that they need to attack the problem at its source. For those who abuse the macro system, let them lose the macro system. Like if you get too many speeding tickets, you lose your drivers license. The player should not be forbidden to play the game. Just made incapable of abusing the system.
and also to set up a one click button for your favorite special attacks.
This is an intended use for macros. As shortcuts. A one-click button implies that the player will be there to click the button.
Whats the big deal? Your not the one using the afk macro so why worry about it? Have you seen the exp required to gain skills in the elite entertainer professions? Its ridiculous.
If they started enforcing the EULA in regards to AFK-macroing, then many people will abandon the entertainer profession because they can't make master overnight. And that is good. It will mean that there will be more live entertainers present to take up the slack. Read the complaints of people who seriousply play entertainers and not macrotainers. When they come into a cantina and see a group of AFKers, there's no point playing. They can't group with them, because it requires an invitation. And people who come in and see a group playing are going to listen to that group and not the lone entertainer who is playing live. He gets virtually nothing.
With a group of live entertainers, a newcomer is quickly brought into the group, and everybody benefits. Word gets around that a full band/dance troupe is performing in the cantina, and suddenly there are TONS of people coming in, because they know that the larger the group, the faster the healing.
It would really do well for those picking up entertainer skills to look at how the profession works, rather than just their little part of it.
So what if they don't get tips. I find it easier to shoot up a group of creatures and gain great exp compaired to what exp an entertainer gets dancing.
That is your preferred playstyle. Those who wish to play as an entertainer (not just to mess around, but to actually go for an advanced profession) usually enjoy the social aspect. It's THEIR preferred playstyle, which is no less valid than yours. The social element is killed when there are a bunch of AFKers in the cantian. The serious entertainer moves on, and ends up performing by himself, earning little to no entertianment healing xp and no tips.
If complaints like this keep coming in about the use of the ingame macro system we just might see Sony remove it completely.
I doubt that, as there are far more legitimate uses for it than there are cheats. But the problem is that those who use it to cheat gain an unfair advantage over those who don't. I think the reason why the number of AFK macrotainers is on the rise is because many entertainers have thrown up their hands and said, "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em." And that IS Sony's fault for not enforcing the EULA. And as I have pointed out, there are ways of enforcing the EULA without resorting to banning. If they would do this, then the macro system can be left unaltered. Nobody but the abusers get punnished...
One of the problems is that the developers have a flawed mentality when it comes to fixing exploits. Had they attacked unattended macroing directly, instead of increasing the delay of sampling, gathering resources would not be as tedious today. For those who may not have been with us at launch, sampling once had a fifteen second delay. Now it is roughly 30 seconds. Unattended macro sampling caused that. And the developers said that if it continues, they'll consider increasing the delay even more. This hurts EVERYONE...
I guess it's far easier for them to change a delay value in their code, then to tackle the root problem... Abuse of the system.
And what happens to the entertainers when the devs apply this "punnish 'em all" mentality to the AFK macrotainers? How about double the XP requirements? You think they are bad now, wait untul the devs swing the nerf bat against the entertainment profession. Only that won't stop AFKers. It will just cause more to come, because playing the game will be even more tedious. and then, even the old saying, "It's not the destination that is important... it's the journey" will not hold water. A journey can be pleasant if there are opportunities to stop and look around as you notice that you are getting closer and closer to the destination. If what I just said happens, it would be like taking a road trip from New York to California on foot with no points of interest along the way and nobody to talk to.
Would you like that? Stop complaining about what other people are doing and enjoy your own experience in the game. I don't see how you can have any fun when your so worried about what other people are doing.
Because the two main characters I play are an entertainer and a Surveyor, and those are the two systems that are most abused by AFK Macroers. I PLAY the game. They don't. Yet they can advance faster and gain more than I ever will as long as I play by the rules. And you may say, "well you can AFK macro, too." but if you say that, then you have missed my whole point. I pay money so that I can PLAY the game, not let the game play itself while I sleep or work or whatever.
And the EULA says that we are not supposed to do anything that allows unattended play. So I want to see those rules enforced. And as I have repeatedly said, with a little work on SOE's part, this can be done without altering the way the game is played, period. That means they won't have to nerf Surveyors or Entertainers.
First offense - Character logged out and warned
Second offense - Character logged out and account blocked from accessing user-defined macros for 3 days
Third offense - Character logged off and account blocked from user-defined macros for 30 days
Final offense - Character logged off and account permanantly blocked from user-defined macros.
That is all it would take to fix the problem. And if if people would quit because of that, it would be no loss, because they weren't really playing anyway. Just eating bandwidth and consuming database resources.
Of course, the devs DO need to add content that would make tedious professions more entertaining. And I think that in time, they will.
In Christ,
G. B. Jackson
DarthOlomew wrote:
And what happens to the entertainers when the devs apply this "punnish 'em all" mentality to the AFK macrotainers? How about double the XP requirements? You think they are bad now, wait untul the devs swing the nerf bat against the entertainment profession. Only that won't stop AFKers. It will just cause more to come, because playing the game will be even more tedious. and then, even the old saying, "It's not the destination that is important... it's the journey" will not hold water.
Actually, those of us that were in beta were able to witness the attempted fixes for the AFKent problem that were tried. Up until very near the end of beta /bandflourish gave XP to everyone in the group. This was changed so that 1 or 2 people couldn't keep a whole band gaining XP endlessly. Prior to this there were very few people using long running recursive macros. The other attempted Fix was to increase action costs for flourishes because most races could play for exceptionaly long times. Unfortuantely, this change has made it where my Zabrak MM/ME goes thru action at such a pace that I can't actually finish the timer on one of the entertainer missions unless I'm playins something like SW1 or Rock on the Slither with both my quickness and stamina at my racial max. I can't complete a dancing mission even doing the basic shuffle. I'm really hoping to see a good fix for AFK across the board as opposed to some of the things they have tried in the past.
sleepdepzombie wrote:
Actually, those of us that were in beta were able to witness the attempted fixes for the AFKent problem that were tried. Up until very near the end of beta /bandflourish gave XP to everyone in the group. This was changed so that 1 or 2 people couldn't keep a whole band gaining XP endlessly. Prior to this there were very few people using long running recursive macros. The other attempted Fix was to increase action costs for flourishes because most races could play for exceptionaly long times. Unfortuantely, this change has made it where my Zabrak MM/ME goes thru action at such a pace that I can't actually finish the timer on one of the entertainer missions unless I'm playins something like SW1 or Rock on the Slither with both my quickness and stamina at my racial max. I can't complete a dancing mission even doing the basic shuffle. I'm really hoping to see a good fix for AFK across the board as opposed to some of the things they have tried in the past.
It's like I said... Rather than attacking the problem (the AFK macroing), they nerf the profession's abilities. Personally, I think band flourishes should give everyone XP. However, a critical failure should be applied where a musician plays the wrong flourish, or screws up and stops playing. Dancers sometimes fall down, but musicians are perfect, and that is wrong.
SOE needs to start enforcing the no unattended play macro policy. If they do, the problem will start to go away. If they do not, it will keep getting worse. And then the developers will somehow nerf the entertainer profession as a means of trying to discourage macrotainers. But the thing is that macrotainers don't care how bad skill advancement is nerfed. They won't be at their computer to notice it, let alone be able to complain about it. But the people who actually play it will feel the pain.
In Christ,
G. B. Jackson
So what if you sit there watching your macro run?
That's what I do, and I bet that's what most everyoen else does, right gang?
What's more, why woudl they write that into the rules, yet provide an avenue for nothing but that?
Sounds fishy to me...no pun intended
JurgenHeph wrote:
So what if you sit there watching your macro run?
That's what I do, and I bet that's what most everyoen else does, right gang?
While I may be in the minority, I can truthfully say that I've never used a macro at all. I don't believe in 'em. I'd rather flub up occasionally than let the game do my playing for me. Besides, if I'm playing then I can experiment with new combinations or just ad-lib where a macro is a canned performance. People catch on to that sort of thing if they see you perform often enough.