Droid Engineer Archive

Thread: TK please read about your comment on combat droids

Badafi
Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:21 am
#1

In your Post about combat droids you wrote:

It's disappointing to all of us that we don't have them yet. But, bear in mind, we shot them down. Now we have to live in that bed (for a little while) that we made for ourselves. That being said...

---------------------------------------

Let me make a clarification! We shot down the Droid Handler profession NOT combat droids! The Devs wanted to make a droid handler profession because it was the easy way out to get combat droids in the game. The majoriety of the DE's wanted the craft/combat abitlity in the same class.

I see you post like this and it gets me very frustrated! It almost like you are vendicating Dev's and SOE for not listening to the player's exspectations. Please be mindfull that its not the DE's of the game that stoped SOE from working on combat droids. It was the amount of work Dev's needed (and still do)to make it a reality.
TheRealTK421
Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:36 am
#2








Badafi wrote:
In your Post about combat droids you wrote:

It's disappointing to all of us that we don't have them yet. But, bear in mind, we shot them down. Now we have to live in that bed (for a little while) that we made for ourselves. That being said...

---------------------------------------

Let me make a clarification! We shot down the Droid Handler profession NOT combat droids!


Well, yes..technically that's true. However, shooting down one led toshooting down the other.


The Devs wanted to make a droid handler profession because it was the easy way out to get combat droids in the game. The majoriety of the DE's wanted the craft/combat abitlity in the same class.


Honestly? I'm not sure that we know that the "majority" wanted. I would say, if anything, that certs were our real "best" answer. That got voted down by the Devs. That leaves only Hybrid.

Hybrid will be (I suspect) hard to balance than the new profession would have been. That means, unfortunately, a delay in making it happen.

I'm not saying it doesn't bite....just telling it like it is...



I see you post like this and it gets me very frustrated!


I'm sorry if it frustrates you. Obviously, that's not my intention. My intent is to give you real, valid and realistic information. But...that doesn'tmean that I'm not pushing to move CL10+ droidsas fast asI can.


Believe me, the Devs are serious about wanting them in too...they just have to deal with how to actuallycode it (the way we all say we want it) without it being an imbalancing thing.


Not easy, I assure you.


It almost like you are vendicating Dev's and SOE for not listening to the player's exspectations.


No...I'm simply stating reality as I see it.


Please be mindfull that its not the DE's of the game that stoped SOE from working on combat droids. It was the amount of work Dev's needed (and still do) to make it a reality.


Well...I'm not sure. I know that there were plans to get CL10+ droids into the game via DC/DH. A lot of work had already been done on that. We shot it down.

So...who's to blame?

Who cares, at this point. Playing the blame game isn't going to help us to move forward on this issue, everyone.





/bow

Respectfully,






TheRealTK421 a.k.a. "Doughbacca"
SWG DE Correspondent
Co-Founding member of Ahazi DENet & SWG DEA (Droid Engineer Association)
"I think all right-thinking people in this country are sick and tired of being told that ordinary, decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. ...I'm certainly not. And I'm sick and tired of being told that I am."


Badafi
Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:27 am
#3

Well...I'm not sure. I know that there were plans to get CL10+ droids into the game via DC/DH. A lot of work had already been done on that. We shot it down.
------------------------------------
That was my point...again! "we shot it down". If you go back to the old conversations Thunder lead us down that path and when we responded that was not the exspectation. A lot of work was done on a profession that players did not want. Instead of combat droids.



So...who's to blame?

Who cares, at this point. Playing the blame game isn't going to help us to move forward on this issue, everyone........... it just seems to pop up in your post

---------------------

But you are playing the blame game with comments like "we shot it down" and thats why we have the mess we have (thats the message you are voicing). I agree we should not play blame games and move forward. That is why its frustrating to see you say "move forward" and same time "play blame game".

All I am asking is to quit saying stuff like "we shot it down"! Only thing 'WE' shot down was a split in profession and not combat droids.
TheRealTK421
Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:41 am
#4






Badafi wrote:
Well...I'm not sure. I know that there were plans to get CL10+ droids into the game via DC/DH. A lot of work had already been done on that. We shot it down.
------------------------------------
That was my point...again! "we shot it down". If you go back to the old conversations Thunder lead us down that path and when we responded that was not the exspectation. A lot of work was done on a profession that players did not want. Instead of combat droids.



So...who's to blame?

Who cares, at this point. Playing the blame game isn't going to help us to move forward on this issue, everyone........... it just seems to pop up in your post

---------------------

But you are playing the blame game with comments like "we shot it down" and thats why we have the mess we have (thats the message you are voicing).


Uhhh...we did shoot it down, man. I know this is upsetting but it's the truth. The outcry over DH is thing that slammed the breaks on releasing it. Plain and simple.

Heck, I'm the one that started the poll that had something to do withthe whole thing going down that way.

I'm not sayingwe were wrong to shoot it down...just that it was public / DE outcry that made them change what they were planning.



I agree we should not play blame games and move forward. That is why its frustrating to see you say "move forward" and same time "play blame game".


I'm not "blaming" DEs. That would be the case if I'd wanted DH and was mad about not getting it. Regardless of what word you want to use to describe what happen, we were the ones that got the brakes slammed on the release of DH/DC.


All I am asking is to quit saying stuff like "we shot it down"! Only thing 'WE' shot down was a split in profession and not combat droids.


Well..they went hand-in-hand, dude. I'm not saying that DEs shot down the idea of wanting CL10+ combat droids. We shot down using a new profession to get there.

So, because that occurred, we have to wait until some new plan to release them (that is technically feasible and can be balanced) is built.

You seem to be operating under some kind of assumption that my comments equate to me working against the DE community. I hope you understand that's not the case. I wouldn't do all that I've ever done (on the forums, the DEA / DENet, accepting the Corr. nomination, etc.) if I didn't want to try and help all of us.





/bow

Respectfully,






TheRealTK421 a.k.a. "Doughbacca"
SWG DE Correspondent
Co-Founding member of Ahazi DENet & SWG DEA (Droid Engineer Association)
"I think all right-thinking people in this country are sick and tired of being told that ordinary, decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. ...I'm certainly not. And I'm sick and tired of being told that I am."


Kilarny
Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:44 am
#5

Placing blame for the whole fiasco is quite easy, actually. It does not do us any good or contribute anything, but...


SOE is to blame for the lack of player-controlled high-level combat droids.


Why? Simple. They are getting paid to develop the game. It is their job to create the content and arrange the rules of the game. We are here voluntarily providing free input to enlarge the creative pool they have to draw from, but ultimately all decisions are made by SOE for SOE's purposes.
SOE chose not to implement higher-level combat droids for players, instead adding them as PvE content. A discussion of WHY they did can (and has) take up thousands of words.


PLEASE NOTE I am not saying whether this was a good or bad decision - it would have been easier for them if the high-level combat droid concept was completed in the game to start with. Changing things now is a pain, sure, but that's how game designers and developers make their credits.


Moving forward, it will be good for both sides of this large ongoing discussion to remember these facts. We have the 'consumer' position in this relationship. Ultimately, we will 'vote with our feet' or not depending on the decisions that SOE makes. SOE has the unenviable position of trying to make a game both fun and fair - hope they will continue to improve SWG.
FlatLine13
Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:36 pm
#6






Kilarny wrote:

Placing blame for the whole fiasco is quite easy, actually. It does not do us any good or contribute anything, but...


SOE is to blame for the lack of player-controlled high-level combat droids.


Why? Simple. They are getting paid to develop the game. It is their job to create the content and arrange the rules of the game. We are here voluntarily providing free input to enlarge the creative pool they have to draw from, but ultimately all decisions are made by SOE for SOE's purposes.
SOE chose not to implement higher-level combat droids for players, instead adding them as PvE content. A discussion of WHY they did can (and has) take up thousands of words.





I still think it's funny all the people complaining about SoE over here. On EQ people still complain about Verant. I'm glad that I havnt seen more SoE involvmet in this game. Probaly why it's actualy a better quality.

You see durring my playing history on EQ I have seen that SoE make desitions based on one thing. Will it make money. While here on SWG the guys at LA seem to be more intrested in how will it effect the game overall.

I totaly agree with the desition they have made. I've made RPGs in my own time before and know how hard it can be to make it a game rather than a slaughter fest. Balance between the charicters needs to be maintained. not to mention the econimy. If DEs could bring a droid that does as much damage as say... a LLC... or simmiler, why would anyone buy a droid? Then why would anyone want to try for BH?

All things must be considered to have a good gameing enviroment. Not just the rantings of a few would be power gamers.

Thats my 2 cred. Sorry for inturupting the argument the 2 of you were carrying on there.

<goes back too the real world out here>

TheygotFritz
Fri Mar 19, 2004 6:07 pm
#7


But you are playing the blame game with comments like "we shot it down" and thats why we have the mess we have (thats the message you are voicing).


Uhhh...we did shoot it down, man. I know this is upsetting but it's the truth. The outcry over DH is thing that slammed the breaks on releasing it. Plain and simple.



LOL...one its not an upsetting truth...you missed the point TK. YES we shot it down PERIOD! We shot down a profession we did not want "Plain and simple".


Well..they went hand-in-hand, dude. I'm not saying that DEs shot down the idea of wanting CL10+ combat droids. We shot down using a new profession to get there.

So, because that occurred, we have to wait until some new plan to release them (that is technically feasible and can be balanced) is built.


and thats the creast of the point! you say because that occurred we have to suffer.....The point iswe have been waiting since beta! We voiced or concerns before release at release and pre-Thunder. When Thunder took over the DE profession took a step backwards to do miscommunication and DEv's working on DH profession. If SOE really listened and communicated properly they might not have used resources to manufacture a profession the community didn't want and because of that mismanagement of resources is WHY the DE professions is where it is. So telling us 'We shot down using a new profession to get there.' DOES NOT FLY!


You seem to be operating under some kind of assumption that my comments equate to me working against the DE community. I hope you understand that's not the case.


No I don't see that at all....I wasn't even suggesting that. Just wanted to point out even though we ALL want to move forward, and we did stop the DH profession, we as players are not the problem for combat droids not being where we want to see them. SOE linked the DH profession to combat droids and its a copout on their part saying because we shot down DH we get no combat droids at this time. As much as you see them as being hand in hand the bigger picture from the begaining shows a different story.


If you get some time go back and reread the boards from October. November and December.



Message Edited by TheygotFritz on 11-12-2004 10:32 AM

OoseTykia
Fri Mar 19, 2004 6:35 pm
#8



Might I be so bold as to point out one teeny-tiny thing that I really, in my heart of hearts, believe is the crux of this whole thing?


There is a decided breakdown in communication between the devs and the players, correspondents notwithstanding. The Correspondents tell the Devs what their various and sundry classes want. The Devs then take that information, and somewhere along the line, what we originally said and what they UNDERSTAND somehow splits.


It's like this gigantic game of "Telephone", where the message starts with "I like chili", and ends up being "Canada nuked Chili!" ((OK, it's lame, but it was the first thing that came to mind.)) And yes, we can raise a hew and cry and holler that the Devs need to read the boards, but lets face it. They'd have to get someone in a full time position to do that, and only that, every single day, and even then they'd never be caught up. Plus, even if they DID hire someone to do that, it's still subject to that particular person's interpretation.


All we can do as a community is stand up and continue to hassle the devs via our correspondents. And all the Devs can do is try and take what we're saying and develop it into FEASIBLE game code. Which isn't easy. They had something in the works which was NEVER communicated to us when the idea first came up in their minds, we said "Nay Nay little bunny!", they trashed it, and we're all back at square one. And no matter what, the Devs will never, ever be able to please everyone that plays to play. Never. So...we all just have to work and see that the majority is pleased.


It ain't easy. But that's the way I see it.


*shuts up and sits down in the tiny Bothan's corner, hoping the flames won't hurt too badly*





____________________________________
Oose Ty'kia
Proprietor - "The Stuttering Bothan" Cantina
Soul's Peace, Dantooine
Musician and Doctor
AudioOrgana
Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:20 pm
#9












TheRealTK421 wrote:



Uhhh...we did shoot it down, man. I know this is upsetting but it's the truth. The outcry over DH is thing that slammed the breaks on releasing it. Plain and simple.

Heck, I'm the one that started the poll that had something to do withthe whole thing going down that way.

I'm not sayingwe were wrong to shoot it down...just that it was public / DE outcry that made them change what they were planning.



I agree we should not play blame games and move forward. That is why its frustrating to see you say "move forward" and same time "play blame game".


I'm not "blaming" DEs. That would be the case if I'd wanted DH and was mad about not getting it. Regardless of what word you want to use to describe what happen, we were the ones that got the brakes slammed on the release of DH/DC.


All I am asking is to quit saying stuff like "we shot it down"! Only thing 'WE' shot down was a split in profession and not combat droids.


Well..they went hand-in-hand, dude. I'm not saying that DEs shot down the idea of wanting CL10+ combat droids. We shot down using a new profession to get there.







Wow, TK.


I know you were there, and you forget to add that yes, we said no to Droid Handler, but they did not tell us that equaled no combat droids!


I'll be 100% honest - if I knew then what I knew now, I would have let that whole "The DE community overwhelmingly...wanted Droid Handler" thing pass by without comment and said "thank you" even though it wasn't what anyone thought we wanted or needed - because it is clear now that that is the ONLY way to get combat droids. If they had made that ultimatum from the begining and told us in the first place that the dozens of ideas about certifactions were flat out not going to happen, we would have been able to make an informed decision. This is especially true now that we know what's up for Publish 8 - something tells me when we said "scrap combat droids and give us utility" we were not thinking about 10 entertainer modules that blow smoke.


On no level did we understand that we were not considered unfinished as we always assumed, and it wasn't until WELL afterthe Droid Handler commentthat they flat out said, "No certifications." I mean, they had to have a meeting to come up with ideas for NEW utility droids because there wasn't some master plan like we all had hoped that included slicer, survey, inherent functions. We didn't understand until recently that as far as usefulness goes, according to the Devs we are as functional in terms of core systems as we will be (crafting stations and med modules).


You are over simplifying the situation and adding fuelto the growing number of people who grumble that it's DE's fault that combat droids suck. You know this is NOT the case at all.


We did not have enough information available to us to make an informed decision.


We were told long ago to expect oranges (certifactions), but then they came offering peaches (droid handler) saying that that's what we told them we wanted. We said, "No, we don't want peaches, we want oranges," and on top of all that we were rightly irritated that we were told we wanted the dang peaches we never said we did (and your poll confirmed).


They took "we want oranges" to mean we didn't want any fruit at all, not bothering to tell us that they didn't have any oranges in the bag.


It simply doesn't matter who said what when at this point - it's becoming a tiring topic since some people refuse to see what really happened, one major miscommunication after another, and trying to make generalizations about it as an excuse for anything(and I'm running out of food analogies - I think that was the third one on the situation). What matters is now, when we actually are on somewhat of the same page as to what our options are/were, that we let them know what we do want.


The fact that you would spend any time rubbing in in our faces (and yes, no matter how you qualify it, in your original and subsequent replies that's what you are doing) makes me wish you'd stop arguing about the past and help us come to some crossroads with the Devs regarding our future.


This isn't a urination contest, and we aren't children who need to be punished or taught lessons - weare customers that fellvictim of some major miscommunication/lack of communication of the options available to us when we were asked for our input.


If it's too late to rectify that mistake, that's one thing; butimplying,in any way, that it's our fault is not only bad form, it's a waste of time.


AO


TheygotFritz
Fri Mar 19, 2004 8:30 pm
#10

Now I am hungry =)
SkyeDarkangel
Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:54 pm
#11

[Blair] We are discussing a lot of options for the droid commander. We have floated a lot of ideas by the community but I don't think we've come up with what the "right" solution is. We want to get high level combat droids into the game for you, but not unbalance what we have.


With this Dev's latest comments in Stratics IRC it seems THEY are still hoping for DH/DC. It's possible all their shooting down of almost all our proposals is their "right" solution to getting DC back.


On a just as depressing note, at this point just so we don't have another 5 month wait for a new combat droid/useful stuff, I'd almost be willing to see a DC/DH class. While it sucks, I'm paying monthly to enjoy this game, if I'm not enjoying it at all it means I should stop paying or do something I enjoy more. I'm very anxious to do something more fun and cool with my DE skills than make subpar combat droids and utility droids for the small handful on Lowca that aren't already carrying around a fully stocked D3.



.-----------------------------------------------------.
| Skye Blueriver: |
| Master Droid Engineer & Master Weaponsmith |
| Lost City on Naboo, Lowca : Vendors at 3660 5667 |
'-----------------------------------------------------'

Argonlaser
Sat Mar 20, 2004 10:21 am
#12

TK...Audio is correct.


There were no Oranges.


They hadn't even started planting Peaches as of January. (show me the post where they detailed DH and the coming Droids in the In Concept forum..?)


They hoped to steal a few Apples from a passing CH and add them to some pretty pictures of a Fruit Bowl.


They ran out of time (must publish or perish?) ...


We got the pictures of the Fruit Bowl....(see upcoming dungeon wallpaper)


Forget the PR folks, they are the road blocks (read Ralph). I'd like to see the Programmer working on Droid Engineering codecome here and tell us how much code he had written before Christmas break for Combat Droids. I think it is obvious from Runesabre's comments that they hadn't even started on DE or DH enhancements. They weren't even ready for TC.


You can't shoot down what isn't flying....


Edsoni, DE Wanderhome




OrionsByte
Sat Mar 20, 2004 10:47 am
#13

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Developers&message.id=21175

They never got a chance to post the details. You might be right, they may have not written a ton of code for the DH/DC profession, but as soon as they mentioned that that's what they were doing they got pounded on with 70 pages of replies saying "don't do it." Not only in this thread, but in several others, including this board. We never gave them a chance to tell us exactly how it would work, we just vetoed it on principle.




Checking your spelling (and punctuation, too) will ensure that you're making sense to more than two people.
- +----=X Biranno Runningstar X=----+ -
Master Musician | Master Droid Engineer | 4020 Artisan | 0/0/3/1 Fencer | Alliance Ace Pilot
Emerald Ridge, Naboo ~ Naritus

-I support ATK play!
Page 1 of 2
Previous Next