Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: TK please read about your comment on combat droids
OrionsByte wrote:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Developers&message.id=21175
They never got a chance to post the details. You might be right, they may have not written a ton of code for the DH/DC profession, but as soon as they mentioned that that's what they were doing they got pounded on with 70 pages of replies saying "don't do it." Not only in this thread, but in several others, including this board. We never gave them a chance to tell us exactly how it would work, we just vetoed it on principle.
They had 70 pages of chances to discuss "In Disscussion"
The post you quoted was on 1/22/04 by TH. Kinda late in the development cycle to start discussing three different ideas for a Feb. publish. It doesn't really matter because their next comment in that thread was the now famousRunesabre post..... He said on 02/03/04....a little over a week and a half later...
------------------------
Runesabre
Lead Designer
Star Wars Galaxies"
I stand my post that they weren't even started on DH or new droids as late as the end of January for a publish that was coming up in a few weeks.
Edsoni, DE Wanderhome
Pepsi / The U.S. Mint / SOE: (in unison): "We've got a great idea for you..."
Customer: "Okay."
Pepsi / The U.S. Mint / SOE: "We're thinking about having a new soda called Crystal Pepsi / a dollar coin called the Sacagawea dollar / a Droid Handler profession!"
Customer: "Why?"
Pepsi / The U.S. Mint / SOE: "Because people deserve a "clear alternative" Pepsi cola / the paper dollar wears out too fast, and it's gold colored/ it would be a cool concept."
Customer: "But don't you already have regular Pepsi cola / the Susan B. Anthony dollar / the Creature Handler profession?"
Pepsi / The U.S. Mint / SOE: "Yes, but our marketing department / our analysts / our programmers feel this is the best thing for you."
Customer: "Okay, let me think about this..."
**a moment passes**
Pepsi / The U.S. Mint / SOE: (in unison): "Well?"
Customer: "I don't like it."
Pepsi / The U.S. Mint / SOE: "But our tests showed you liked it / what's not to like about Sacagawea? Look at the cute baby! / we already started the programming on this."
Customer: "I'm sorry, it won't do... Try again."
Pepsi / The U.S. Mint / SOE: " !!! "
Customer: "How do you even plan on selling this to the public?"
Pepsi / The U.S. Mint / SOE: "A multi-million dollar ad blitz including a catchy Van Halen tune / A multi-million dollar blitz including a walking dollar bill, a catchy slogan "It's money, so use it!" and we're putting them in cereal boxes and Wal-Marts / Sell? Hahahaha, we don't sell... you're supposed to just like it."
Customer: "That's pathetic... I hate it passionately."
Pepsi / The U.S. Mint / SOE: "Can you give us a better answer than that?"
Customer to Pepsi: "It tastes a bit funny and it just doesn't work for me..."
Customer to The U.S. Mint: "I don't want to carry two pounds worth of coins when bills are much easier to carry, plus the coin tarnishes after it's held... it looks like a rusty brake drum!"
Customer to SOE: "The DH profession is too similar to the CH profession (metallic CH), you said you were going to do something else then changed your mind, you claim to have started working on DH while we were still under the impression we were getting certifications and without seriously consulting us as players beforehand, plus droids shouldn't be just rancors with a different skin slapped on them... they should be a different breed entirely!"
Pepsi / The U.S. Mint / SOE (in unison): "Oh....."
**a moment passes**
Pepsi / The U.S. Mint / SOE (in unison): "Okay, we cancelled it, you were right / Okay, it will be retooled as a collectable coin / FINE, you're not getting anything at all! (hmpf!)"
Customer: 
TheRealTK421 wrote:
Seriously...I know it is hard to believe for some but my perspective has changed. The fact that I've been able to 'see behind the curtain' a bit more really does change things. I guess that's why posts are seen as more 'SOE apologist' than they are really meant to be. I guess I just don't want to focus on the negative..
V1G0 wrote:
TheRealTK421 wrote:
Seriously...I know it is hard to believe for some but my perspective has changed. The fact that I've been able to 'see behind the curtain' a bit more really does change things. I guess that's why posts are seen as more 'SOE apologist' than they are really meant to be. I guess I just don't want to focus on the negative..
TK,
I trust you and your judgement, and was happy when you became our new correspondent.
Thanks...I'll keep trying to earn that trust and confidence everyday (despite what some out there may now be thinking of me).
From your attitude change towards the devs I am guessing that good things are happening behind the curtain.
Yes, I'd say that's true. However, it may not happen as quickly as we'd all like. Nothing will be perfect in the next publish. Nothing is perfect in SWG with ANY publish. That's just reality. I'm starting to see now that what matters most is steady, measureable and (hopefully) constant movement in a better and better direction.
And, my attitude isn't necessarily different based only on what I now know. Instead, some of it (to be honest) is how some forum-goers seem to treat me differently. I really have to be tons more careful about what I say and such. One Corr. that is currently out there (I won't name names) stated that they, too, used to be a 'rabble-rouser'. But, after getting to be a Corr., they realized how what they were doing was only shooting themselves in the foot.
Here's an example:
I am now charged with building lists of 'DE issues' to put in front of the Devs, so that they can be discussed and/or address via bug fix (if confirmed/verified). It's actually quite hard for me lately to do that, since I have to dig through 100s of upset posts on the Droid Invasion and any/all aspects that went with it.
Am I saying people shouldn't be upset? No...that's their right and opinion to give, if they see fit.
Am I saying, "Gee, poor me, look at all this work!" Not at all...I'm no stranger to doing 'work' on behalf of trying to make DE (and its community) better. I'm all for that...
I'm saying that I understand more now about why it's harder for the Devs to really work with us when the boards are 'in flames'. That change in point-of-view has sort of 'offset' my perspective. And, at the same time, I have to try to stay objective...I am, afterall, charged with representing the entire DE community (to the degree that that is possible or realistic).
What is really frustrating me is the lack of communication and information that has plagued us from the beginning.
Yea...the Devs have mentioned this before. It's why the "In Devleopment" and "In Concept" boards exist. They need to have a way to talk about changes without having people say "YEA! We're gonna get Droidekas!!"...when, in fact, it was all conjecture and brainstorming.
Please understand, now that I've seen my intended 'message' of a particular post get misread and misinterpreted, it's a lot easier for me to relate to why the Devs find it hard to communicate. Hence, the reason that I'm here as a Corr.
I've already spoken with TH to get some 'quotables' and information on what's coming, so that we can be sure that people won't misunderstand or misread what's in development.
And....................if it's "in development" that is not a slam-dunk to say that something will get in the game Live. If they try to do something and it ends up being nasty (technologically or in terms of affecting game balance), they will be inclined to yank it (and/or figure out a different answer that CAN balance).
When will we get to hear some of this information?
Soon, I'd imagine. I've been working with TH to get some info to you. Probably early next week, if I had to guess...but it's only a guess. From here on out, we will try to get you the aforementioned 'quotables' (things that are official but that I will be able to post, relating to DE issues, gripes, problems, etc.).
When will they answer some of the many questions we have and that you have presented to them,they really need to allow you to tell us some of what you are hearing.
/salute
They already are...
The fact that I was able to let fly the info on the colorization step for chassis is a good example. It was the top, bold item I had on my short list. They came back with an answer and said "You can let them know this...".
Right after that, I posted my thread about it (now in the "Hot Topics!" sticky).
I'll be getting more info like this when they give it to me, pushing for more of it, pushing them to say more to you directly (some people only like 'hearing' if it comes from a red-name) and so on.
Is it enough information? No. Is it as fast as you and I would like to get it? Never.
This is another item that I've already mentioned to them as a serious aspect of their communication issues to resolve. Whether they take that to heart is up to them (but I'm seeing some really good things on that front already).
/bow
Respectfully,
/bow
AudioOrgana wrote:
Wow, TK.
I know you were there, and you forget to add that yes, we said no to Droid Handler, but they did not tell us that equaled no combat droids!
As best as I recall, you're correct. An oversight on their part, to be sure.
I'll be 100% honest - if I knew then what I knew now, I would have let that whole "The DE community overwhelmingly...wanted Droid Handler" thing pass by without comment and said "thank you" even though it wasn't what anyone thought we wanted or needed - because it is clear now that that is the ONLY way to get combat droids. If they had made that ultimatum from the begining and told us in the first place that the dozens of ideas about certifactions were flat out not going to happen, we would have been able to make an informed decision. This is especially true now that we know what's up for Publish 8 - something tells me when we said "scrap combat droids and give us utility" we were not thinking about 10 entertainer modules that blow smoke.
Well, I can see your point here. I've said the same thing myself. However, looking back...I still think we made the right choice. We got them not to implement the feature that would have spent a lot of time to do, caused more problems and wouldn't have resolved a lot of the goals that (best as I can see) the DEs wanted to achieve. They wanted the new profession. We saw it as a bad thing and said so. They basically agreed (per Runesabre's post) and put on the breaks. In lieu of that, they listed to us and said..."Okay, we'll do some utility modules instead. We know you all say you want some of those too".
[snip]...we are as functional in terms of core systems as we will be (crafting stations and med modules).
....for now.
You are over simplifying the situation and adding fuelto the growing number of people who grumble that it's DE's fault that combat droids suck. You know this is NOT the case at all.
Yea...I do know. That's why I wanted to put this issue behind us more and let it stop being a divisive and polarizing issue. I'm sure you've been about long to know that (now)...it's much harder for me to be exactly the same TK421 I was before. People take my comments differently than they did before.
In that regard, part of me thinks it was a bad idea to even address this at all. I see my comments, intended to explain what happen...move past it...whatever, are often being twisted about, misread or mischaracterized.
Seriously...I know it is hard to believe for some but my perspective has changed. The fact that I've been able to 'see behind the curtain' a bit more really does change things. I guess that's why posts are seen as more 'SOE apologist' than they are really meant to be. I guess I just don't want to focus on the negative...
We did not have enough information available to us to make an informed decision.
What aspect about this game is that not true though?I know what you mean. I intend to make a priority to get mo' betta information on stuff down the road, when I actually am in a position to do so (note: for those just joining, I've only been the DE Corr. for about 9 days at this point).
We were told long ago to expect oranges (certifactions),...
Uhhh...you didn't take what Holocron said as law, did you? Come on, Audio. You know that's not a good idea.
...but then they came offering peaches (droid handler) saying that that's what we told them we wanted.
And thus, "Episode 2 - The Droid Wars" really got into high gear. You know I fault them for theirmisstep on the communication process at that point in our history. I've already said so as much on theCorr. boards. But, I dropped it quickly cause I want to look forward and get some good/better stuff and communication going (note: I'm not stating here that Drashk or Sintrosi didn't do a good job as Corrs. Far from it...).
We said, "No, we don't want peaches, we want oranges," and on top of all that we were rightly irritated that we were told we wanted the dang peaches we never said we did (and your poll confirmed).
They took "we want oranges" to mean we didn't want any fruit at all, not bothering to tell us that they didn't have any oranges in the bag.
Would it have been better for them to say, "Look, if you don't take DC now/soon, you'll have to wait on CL10+ droids. Still want it?" Yes, that likely would have been a good idea. Since we can't turn back the clock, we can only try to do what moves us forward best from here.
It simply doesn't matter who said what when at this point - it's becoming a tiring topic since some people refuse to see what really happened, one major miscommunication after another, and trying to make generalizations about it as an excuse for anything (and I'm running out of food analogies - I think that was the third one on the situation). What matters is now, when we actually are on somewhat of the same page as to what our options are/were, that we let them know what we do want.
Indeed...I'm all about that, right now. I've pointed them several times, in many ways, to the current DE Hybrid proposal. It appears to me (and the rest of the DEs that are reporting in on this issue) to be the strongest/best idea that we can come up with yet. The Devs have seen it, they have discussed it internally. We are getting on a much better footing to work toward the "right" answer that will satisfy both DEs and the Devs. So, things are getting better in that regard.
The fact that you would spend any time rubbing in in our faces (and yes, no matter how you qualify it, in your original and subsequent replies that's what you are doing) makes me wish you'd stop arguing about the past and help us come to some crossroads with the Devs regarding our future.
Yes...I agree. As such, perhaps this should be the last time that I even discuss the DH/DC thing at all.
This isn't a urination contest, and we aren't children who need to be punished or taught lessons - weare customers that fellvictim of some major miscommunication/lack of communication of the options available to us when we were asked for our input.
Agreed. It was never my intention to do any of the things you mention above.
You may note that I know have to qualify my comments and make notes and disclaimers on this issue. It's an example of how I can't simply speak my opinion on any issue without worrying how it will get misread and twisted about in a way that's out my intended context.
If it's too late to rectify that mistake, that's one thing; butimplying,in any way, that it's our fault is not only bad form, it's a waste of time.
Assessing fault assumes that I'm saying what we did was bad. I don't believe it was. I still think we were right to shoot down DH, for the same reasons that I would have given at the time.
Anyway...I just don't think I should even speak to this anymore. It just tends to lead to bad tidings and doesn't really move any of us in a good direction. In that regard, I hope you'll agree with me.
Respectfully,
But if they do, listen for the BE-CH vents when people go away from pets to combat droids because they'll be more Star Wars. Then will come the BE-CH upgrade/High Level Droid nerf. Which will begin the whole cycle over again.
There's a basic design flaw in there somewhere with the whole concept of non-PC thingies that fight with ya. Same thing occurs in the only other game I've played which has pets (UO). Are non-PC fighting thingies there to give the PC an edge over the MOB? No? Then why have 'em at all? 'cause they look neat? Well, seems that's getting the devs into an awful lot of trouble. You can't really balance stuf if PC gets 2 and MOB gets 1. That's TH's whole extra checker concept. And it's built into the whole Pet/Combat Droid concept. There's always an extra checker. And no matter what ya do, the guy without the extra checker, be he PC or MOB, will be at a disadvantage.
In Star Wars, combat droids served basically two purposes: Sentry duty and large scale combat operations. We don't do large scale combat operations in this game (large scale being on the order of hundreds to thousands of troops per side). And sentry droids in Star Wars were basically Han Solo Blaster Fodder which set off the alarm to call in the White Guys (Advanced HSBF/Luke Lightsabre Fodder), which is what we have now.
TheRealTK421 wrote:
Yea...the Devs have mentioned this before. It's why the "In Devleopment" and "In Concept" boards exist. They need to have a way to talk about changes without having people say "YEA! We're gonna get Droidekas!!"...when, in fact, it was all conjecture and brainstorming.
TK did start the vote thread to oppose the DH profession. We did vote overwhelming against the DH profession. We did shoot down the DH profession and along with it a "quick" but wrong way of getting CL10+ droids into the game. We did the right thing by shooting down a major mistake which would have trapped us in a pattern that already has been proven a failure.
Sodan started the hybrid vote thread and so far the vote has been overwhelming in favor of it. I support that direction and believe it follows an establish successful pattern already in the game. More difficult to implement and balance? Yes. But well worth the wait to get it done right. I'll buy that balancing it is difficult but I won't buy that its impossible.
Time for all of us to chill out and back off. After all, we've been waiting this long. I'd rather wait a little while longer to get CL10+ combat droids inright rather than quick. I've been here from the launch so its not possible for any of you to have been waiting longer than I have and I'm still willing to wait a bit longer.
Hmm. Bug lists...you mean the same bug list they got in August, October, December, and January? Those bug lists?
If SOE needs any of them explained better, let us know. We'll be happy to help, I'm sure.
-Kilarny
Still waiting for an In Concept thread dealing with Droids
Still waiting for the Answer to the Ultimate Question of "What is a Droid Engineer FOR?"
/bow
Badafi wrote:
In your Post about combat droids you wrote:
It's disappointing to all of us that we don't have them yet. But, bear in mind, we shot them down. Now we have to live in that bed (for a little while) that we made for ourselves. That being said...
---------------------------------------
Let me make a clarification! We shot down the Droid Handler profession NOT combat droids!
Well, yes..technically that's true. However, shooting down one led toshooting down the other.
The Devs wanted to make a droid handler profession because it was the easy way out to get combat droids in the game. The majoriety of the DE's wanted the craft/combat abitlity in the same class.
Honestly? I'm not sure that we know that the "majority" wanted. I would say, if anything, that certs were our real "best" answer. That got voted down by the Devs. That leaves only Hybrid.
Hybrid will be (I suspect) hard to balance than the new profession would have been. That means, unfortunately, a delay in making it happen.
I'm not saying it doesn't bite....just telling it like it is...
I see you post like this and it gets me very frustrated!
I'm sorry if it frustrates you. Obviously, that's not my intention. My intent is to give you real, valid and realistic information. But...that doesn'tmean that I'm not pushing to move CL10+ droidsas fast asI can.
Believe me, the Devs are serious about wanting them in too...they just have to deal with how to actuallycode it (the way we all say we want it) without it being an imbalancing thing.
Not easy, I assure you.
It almost like you are vendicating Dev's and SOE for not listening to the player's exspectations.
No...I'm simply stating reality as I see it.
Please be mindfull that its not the DE's of the game that stoped SOE from working on combat droids. It was the amount of work Dev's needed (and still do) to make it a reality.
Well...I'm not sure. I know that there were plans to get CL10+ droids into the game via DC/DH. A lot of work had already been done on that. We shot it down.
So...who's to blame?
Who cares, at this point. Playing the blame game isn't going to help us to move forward on this issue, everyone.
Respectfully,