Droid Engineer Archive

Thread: Sorry folks, the math says probots are overpowered like hell

Tal-N
Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:32 am
#1

I figured I'd get the ball rolling here by pointing out that research using these current probots has shown they are severely overpowered when they are supposed to be CL10. The topic was started here by someone who threw an invalid and overpowered non-ch pet against a probot only to find that it was totally and utterly destroyed by the droid.


http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=bio-engineer&message.id=60273


At first I was disputing the issue but NancyJ is very much correct, these probots need to be nerf'd or non-ch pets need to be allowed much more power than they currently have, that however would meana general rising of the power across the board for mobs as well. But on a more realistic note if they considered the old CL10 pets with 9k/7k/6k of HAM invalid and inbalanced then what will they think about probots which are technically able to susstain over 5000 points of damage to a single pool! Those kinds of stats are actually typical of a CL20 mob not a CL10 one. I'll just paste the nice bit of math NancyJ did as well as what I worked out as well.






Medium armour will reduce damage by 50% and then 50% again

So if I hit for 4 damage, it will be halved to 2 then halved again to 1, meaning you take 1/4 of the damage dealt to you

if you have 100 Health and every point of damage you take is 1/4 then you have 400 effective health.
if you have 800 health then you have 800 x 4 = 3200 effective health

If you then reduce the damage taken by 40% again the total damage taken for every point of damage is 60% of 1/4 = 0.15

so 820 = 15/100 of the effective health

so effective health * 0.15 = 820

820/0.15 = effective health = 5466 2/3rd

Multiply that by 3 for health action and mind and the total effective HAM = 16.4K





...





Look at the damage side of things it appears thatavalid tanking pet, thats 3k/2k/2k with 35-40 damage would need to hit the probot a total of 137 times in order to defeat it. The droid shooting the pet however would only need to hit 38 times meaning that the droid is technically more than 3.6 times better than the best valid non-ch pet blow for blow.


So yeah, it's no wonder the pet didn't even manage to lower the droid to half health. I'd say we need to bring this issue up with the devs otherwise it's going to put non-ch pets completely out of the market for creature handlers AND bio-engineers. If they considered 9k HAM non-chpets overpoweredthen one whichactually has the same as around 15k isn't going to go down to well with them at all. I think this would mean theprobots HAM needs to be lowered to around 228 points to be inline with a typical non-ch pet.




I know this wasn't what you folks wanted to hear but the fact is that the math shows the probots to be far too powerful for CL10.




Tal-N Chratk
Ahazi Master Bioengineer / Hunt Master / Rifleman
______________________
Tal'N Chratk
Shadowfire Bounterhunter / Commando

TheWoody
Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:48 am
#2

And yet we just about never see non-CH pets running about anymore. Ever since the great 'CH Rebalance' no one has bothered to use CL10 combat pets at all because they are just too weak totake on anythingof value.On top of that, the small basic-profession window where they could be useful is covered faster than it would take to get a CH to traina CL10for you anyway.


But evenassuming that probotsare more powerful, I almost never see probots out 'in the wild' with players. There's just not enough value to them that can't be made up by sinking that extra 30k they cost into a better gun or a few pieces fo composite, for the same reason listed above.


And if there is some small market out there for probots that I'm unaware of, then how would calling for their nerf benefit DEs? We have almost no marketshare compared to weaponsmiths, armoursmiths, tailors, architects, orchefsas is, yet we have no combat abilities like smugglers or combat medics. What benefit would there be to making the profession even weaker?


Why am I even bothering to reply to this?





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"Never in the field of forum posting has so much bollocks been said to so many by so few"
Shian_Tavkin
Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:50 am
#3

Enjoying yourself on our boards..are you Tal ?


Bah





Shian -- Master Droid Engineer/ Master Artisan
Jenden
Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:52 am
#4





The one thing you have to remember with probots is that they have a more limited scope than a non-CH pet with high HAM. A probot is only good against mobs without AP (and quite a few of the fun ones do have AP). You throw a probot up against most NPC's and it will dropp pretty quick.


While I do think the probot shouldn't really be any stronger, I'd say its about right where its at.

Message Edited by Jenden on 03-02-2004 07:53 AM



Jenden Morn - Master of Droids- Tarquinas
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Owner, Operator, and Founder of DarkStar Inc.
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GrafvonSoden
Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:09 am
#5





Tal-n :


Multiply that by 3 for health action and mind and the total effective HAM = 16.4K






sorry, this is NOT a valid statement. It only takes one bar to be depleated before the creature or droid is incapped.
duncje
Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:10 am
#6

Nerf DE!


We're way too overpowered. Look how everybody and their dog is running around with overpowered probots! We make way to much damn money, and we can never keep anything in stock...


/wakes up...


Tal, HAM-wise a probot is no doubt better than a CL 10 non-droid pet. But why shouldn't they be? Metal and blasters will always be superior to fur and claws. But CL 20? LOL. What CL 20 pet do you know that does 75 average damage?





Beebo
Master Droid Engineer | Shipwright | Master Artisan
Crazy Beebo's Discount Droids & Ships {-1075 -2924} Bestine, Tatooine

raider7734
Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:30 am
#7









820/0.15 = effective health = 5466 2/3rd

Multiply that by 3 for health action and mind and the total effective HAM = 16.4K





x3, so it has 16.4k effective HAM? LOL!!!How many times have you seen a probot or any tank pet go down with all three bars empty?


Never, I bet... becausedamage tends to hit the red bar most frequently, making it thethe limiting factor.


Ameaningful comparison, then, should start with how much damage theirrespective Health bars can sustain, then be expanded to include the realitythat because the droid gets so much of its tanking power from its armor rating,it will be an inferior tank against armor piercing attacks compared toan unarmored pet with a similaramount of Health.




----------
IGN Kye • vendor wp -1444, -3847 Naboo
"Persistence is synthetic Luck"
Tal-N
Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:36 am
#8

Effective ham is how they work out the toughness of the droids, this applies to all mobs in the game. Just because a Rancor has 10k of HAM in a single pool doesn't mean that the other two bars can be totally ignored. The fact remains that it is perfectly possible for someone to end up hitting so randomly that all the pools are worn down in the process of killing them. That is why it's called an 'effective HAM' since that is effectively what they have. I knew this would get a one-star, however the fact remains is that players have had their animal pets nerf'd time and time again with the devs claiming they were too powerful, if they allow non-ch droids to continue to be like this the devs have alot of explaining to do when they said the other pets were 'overpowered'. We know how loud the CH community can scream so we'll have to see what they think about a non-ch getting a droid which is better than something they can have even with 1/1/1/1 in their CH skills.



Tal-N Chratk
Ahazi Master Bioengineer / Hunt Master / Rifleman
______________________
Tal'N Chratk
Shadowfire Bounterhunter / Commando

DarthIguana
Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:38 am
#9

I'm not convinced that probots are so much over powered as too multifunctional. I like the way the devs are carrying out the new combat modules and how they are used, the exception being AdvR3s becoming the most powerful combat droid possible. Currently, probots are CL10 (ish, feel free to debate that) combat droids AND capable of carrying utility modules making them a no brainer choice for the all purpose droid while the R series and walkie talkies are only utility droids. Trading utility modules for combat modules makes perfect sense and brings the probot into line with other droids functionality wise.

Chris



~ Liavuss Mekka of Chilastra ~
TheRealTK421
Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:06 am
#10






Tal-N wrote:


We know how loud the CH community can scream so we'll have to see what they think about a non-ch getting a droid which is better than something they can have even with 1/1/1/1 in their CH skills.




Tal-N,

I understand your post and you do have some correct items in it.

To counter you with a query...


If the Probots are so powerful (as you say), why is that DEs have to fight tooth and nail to sell them? You'dthink that such an overpowered pet would be hard to keep in stock.



Oh yea....ever tried using a Probot for combat for a long period of time? Or...are you just spouting numbers?

Just curious.



/bow

Respectfully,



Message Edited by TheRealTK421 on 03-02-2004 09:26 AM



TheRealTK421 a.k.a. "Doughbacca"
SWG DE Correspondent
Co-Founding member of Ahazi DENet & SWG DEA (Droid Engineer Association)
"I think all right-thinking people in this country are sick and tired of being told that ordinary, decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. ...I'm certainly not. And I'm sick and tired of being told that I am."


duncje
Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:21 am
#11






DarthIguana wrote:
I'm not convinced that probots are so much over powered as too multifunctional. I like the way the devs are carrying out the new combat modules and how they are used, the exception being AdvR3s becoming the most powerful combat droid possible. Currently, probots are CL10 (ish, feel free to debate that) combat droids AND capable of carrying utility modules making them a no brainer choice for the all purpose droid while the R series and walkie talkies are only utility droids. Trading utility modules for combat modules makes perfect sense and brings the probot into line with other droids functionality wise.

Chris




Sell me a probot with all 4 crafting stations, max medical, and item storage then. Oh that's right.... you can't. If you want to put all those in a droid you'll have to sell me an R3. Or if you want the probot, you'll have to limit your 6 choices to 2. How is this not a tradeoff?


Message Edited by duncje on 03-02-2004 10:24 AM



Beebo
Master Droid Engineer | Shipwright | Master Artisan
Crazy Beebo's Discount Droids & Ships {-1075 -2924} Bestine, Tatooine

Alacrity
Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:51 am
#12

Tal-N, the only purpose you could possibly have in posting this in the DE forums is to start a flame-fest. Please take it elsewhere.


I have no problem with a CL10 Probot being better than a CL10 Critter. Probots are made of metal and have blasters - critters aren't. Probots have sophisticated electronic brains, critters don't. Besides, CH/BE pets have had the advantage for so long, Droid Engineers need some compensation for that long-standing imbalance.



Amoon Darkflier, Elder Artisan, Elder Droid Engineer, Elder Merchant

"I find your lack of pants disturbing."
Barfalomue
Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:58 am
#13

Tal,


Probots are currently the only combat-able droid. There are many CL-10+ creatures to be had out there in the game. Screw balance and Screw you! (original poster).


This game has no balance anywhere you look. Why is it such a concern when it comes to droids?


My pistoleer has no chance against a TKA, Commando, Rifleman, Combat Medic. I can not take down a CH/Medic with my pistoleer. A brawler, hybrid-class other than TKA has no chance against a commando. A Ch has no chance against a commando. My commando can solo a Rancor lair, what other professions can do that? Not many.


This game has no damn balance. Don't throw this crap at us about droids. At least Droids are a bit more Star Warsy than all the damn creatures roaming the servers. OOOOH! I saw 3 instances in the movies where there would have been a CH....give me a damn break. I will take relevance to the movies any day over balance in the game. This is a RPG. If you wanted everyone and everything to be just as good as everyone else, you would play a FPS or Group Mario Bros.


GIVE UP THE DAMN BALANCE ARGUMENT...IT IS STUPID. There is no balance, don't drag droids into it!



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