Droid Engineer Archive

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Mightion wrote:

I'm a bit torn, myself. On one side, if I manage to make the uberest R2 unit possible, then I should have the right to crank them out in factories.


That "right" needs to come with a cost of some kind though, man. It's our right to use Level 6 Item storage modules...the cost is that you have to use AS parts to do so. To every reward, there has to be a 'risk'. Right now, with most factory crating situations, there's simply no risk at all. That has to change....(IMO).

On the other side, given custom orders and the need to "grind" for exp for Force-sensitive crafting exp, I wouldn't mind hand-crafted final combines be given some type of bonus when I make a custom droid - say, I can get the HAM a little higher or improve it's battery efficiency a bit.


See....now you're thinking like we were. There's nothing inherently better about hand-crafting anything in most all crafting situations. For the most part, use of factories is always better. That's not balanced correctly and only leads to massive stocking in several markets of the absolute "best" _______ that's possible.

Final combines, mind you. I don't think subcomponents need to benefit from hand crafting, at least when it comes to droids. Weapons, and armor might be a different story.


Well,bear in mind, the type of change we were kickin' around was a core crafting design issue. If it hits Armor and Weapons, it'll need to hit us too. The devil's in the details, of course, but we're talking about a change that will affect any/all crafting situations across the board. This is analagous to the Combat Balance/Revamp....just for crafting.

EDIT: Keep in mind, though... if it comes to pass that you can make better items with hand-crafting, you're just gonna have people saying it's "unfair" they can't run that item then in their factory.

....maybe. But the 'fair' tradeoff here is that the hand-crafters can't crank out as many items.

Like I said....a tradeoff. A choice.

Right now, there's no real choice to be made. You pretty much will use a factory to make that "best" item. If the change we are discussing can be worked out, there will need to be a decision made by both client / crafter on how they'd like to proceed.

Just keep in mind that all aspects of the game should revolve around some kind of 'Risk vs. Reward' scenario.

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This is going to get long....bear with me.

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TheRealTK421 wrote:

Heya, all...

So, I figured I'd start a place where we could bring together all the viewpoints and such on this issue.

The short version is that there was/is an idea (or potential initiative) to change crafting about some so that there's a choice to be made when deciding to use factories or hand-craft in relation to the 'quality' of the final product.

This is a very big evil can of worms you've opened up.

The potential tradeoffs might be:

Factory use:

Pro: More product with less work (since the factories do it for you)

Con: Slightly less potential 'quality' than a hand-crafted item

Hand-crafting:

Pro: Slightly higher quality than would be possible in comparison to building via factories

Con: Longer build times / lower inventory possible

Ok, I think your pros/cons are slightly out of whack. First, doing the math for the exact amount of resources needed for [x] components in order to acheive [y] amount of product takes effort. In some cases, I think making sure you have enough components for [y]product runs is a lot of work. I don't see how much "less work" there is between hand crafting and factory crafting. The difference is in preparation.

Second, it takes longer for a factory to make a item than hand craft it. Don't believe me? Race the factory one time making R3 chassis. The BIG difference is that you don't have to be sitting logged on to make the items.

There are already viable tradeoffs between factory use and hand crafting/customised products.

Right now, this is all just talk. There are no official plans to do this or make any such change. It is simply something that came up between the crafting Corrs. at the SWG Summit. We'd like to hash this issue out and see if there's merit to it and if it can be done in a way that 'balances' correctly.

I just want to appologize now, 'cause I'm the one that got this whole thing started by asking "what did the correspondants talk about besides the CB/CR?".


Some notes to consider:

We need a way to ensure that the "best" in the game can't be simply be thrown up en masse to a vendor.

The "best" weapon and armor will never be "thrown en masse to a vendor" because they require loot components. As AudioOrgana stated before, the Architect's problem with managing qualityof their end products is their problem, not a universal crafting issue.

We need a way to ensure that there's an actual 'rares' market that has some kind of value or meaning.

Personally, if you really want to push "Rare DE products" then push for some loot enhancement. DE's (myself included) are notorious for not stocking vendors well due to the amount of options available to us (even before publish 7/8) and you'll find more often than not going to that it is not very well stocked.

We need a way to provide some decision or tradeoff on the part of both the crafter and his/her client.

Tradeoffs are already part of the end product. Variables in chassis, modules etc. If you're talking about weapons and armor, then there's the combat balance to make sure HAM costs become more of a tradeoff (that solves the problem for WS/AS). Chef's have tradeoffs on filling/uses/bonus for food.

This change (done right/well) would make the crafting game a lot more dynamic and interesting...hopefully.

I disagree. All it means is people will make stuff more by hand than with a factory.

There are no bad ideas, viewpoints or opinions (just make sure to be nice and respect the other peeps issues).

I'll leave this with a quote I love on the matter from the venerable Mark Twain:

"That which we obtain too cheaply, we value too poorly."

I get the impression that you think that people arn't charging enough for goods? Personally, I think stuff costs a lot already in every galaxy ....with the possible exception being TestCenter. (I have to admit, TestCenter is a great server for starting from scratch with the kinds of prices they have there!) As I said before, this is a big economic decision with larger ramifications. If a change like this occurs, I'm fairly certain the cost of every product will increase at a larger rate. Is this what we want?

Everyone seems to scale things in terms of # ofJanta missions nowadays (especially the Doc's). You still have to think about the noob who want a laser rifle or a scout blaster, and not just the Master Rifleman who wants a Krayt T21 or a Master Pistoleer who wants a DE-10. I'm exagerating, but I think I've made my point.

Please..........................do not flame here. I plan to have the Devs pay attention to this discussion if/when the time comes.

/bow

Respectfully,

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Message Edited by JavelinCatcher on 09-09-2004 05:35 PM

I think that having a difference between hand crafted items and factory made items is a great idea. It makes sense, and it would provide a real market for custom item salesman. While this isn't much of an issue for DE's, I think this is something weaponsmiths and armorsmiths are really missing out on. As it is there's absolutely no inscentive for them to make custom orders (other than obscenely priced loot component stuff). This was the primary reason I never even thought about picking up AS, WS, or Architect (and I know a couple people who have quit due to the lack of possibilities).

Its adding another layer of quality to items. For DE's and Architects this means there's 2 layers instead of one, and for WS's and AS's it means there's 3 instead of 2... Hand crafted items won't be as high quality as the loot stuff, but will be more common (and therefore cheaper), whereas factory items are even lower quality but will be much cheaper and sold in bulk.

Personally, if you really want to push "Rare DE products" then push for some loot enhancement. DE's (myself included) are notorious for not stocking vendors well due to the amount of options available to us (even before publish 7/8) and you'll find more often than not going to that it is not very well stocked.

It may just be me, but I hate the idea of loot components... People expect you to always have them and you can't go get them yourself (so you have to spend more than they're worth buying them from other people).

If a change like this occurs, I'm fairly certain the cost of every product will increase at a larger rate. Is this what we want?

The cost of current quality products shouldn't increase, just the cost of higher quality hand crafted items. People will go for what they can afford.

I do NOT want to see industrialists punished for using a factory.

I don't think its about punishing industrialists, its about promoting those who run a custom order business. For most people the desire to not interact with other people is stronger than the want for slightly better items, so I don't think industrialists will really be hurt too much.

Message Edited by Jenden on 09-09-2004 03:09 PM

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JavelinCatcher wrote:

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TheRealTK421 wrote:

Heya, all...

So, I figured I'd start a place where we could bring together all the viewpoints and such on this issue.

The short version is that there was/is an idea (or potential initiative) to change crafting about some so that there's a choice to be made when deciding to use factories or hand-craft in relation to the 'quality' of the final product.

This is a very big evil can of worms you've opened up.

Hey....it's ME!



The potential tradeoffs might be:

Factory use:

Pro: More product with less work (since the factories do it for you)

Con: Slightly less potential 'quality' than a hand-crafted item

Hand-crafting:

Pro: Slightly higher quality than would be possible in comparison to building via factories

Con: Longer build times / lower inventory possible

Ok, I think your pros/cons are slightly out of whack.

It was just a very basicstatement to give abackground for what thecrafting Corrs. had kicked around. I understand there's energy / maintenance costs, lot costs, etc.


First, doing the math for the exact amount of resources needed for components in order to acheive amount of product takes effort. In some cases, I think making sure you have enough components for product runs is a lot of work. I don't see how much "less work" there is between hand crafting and factory crafting. The difference is in preparation.

That's true. After awhile, it's very possible to have set 'runs' setup such that you only need really do such preparation once. Once you have your system in place all you need to do is 'crate-by-numbers' and it's a done deal.

It wasn't the prep-time that was as much of a concern. I think you'd save a TON of time using factories (with preparation) in comparison to the time needed to hand-craft the same number of items, for us anyway. Yes?

Second, it takes longer for a factory to make a item than hand craft it.

But you don't need to be there to do it. Also, this depends partly on how the hand-crafting is done.
If you're parting the whole thing from scratch...that wouldn't be true of more complex products.


Don't believe me? Race the factory one time making R3 chassis. The BIG difference is that you don't have to be sitting logged on to make the items.

Well, I know that I can make 124 R3 Adv. chassis with a factory faster than I could by hand. Do you not agree?

There are already viable tradeoffs between factory use and hand crafting/customised products.

Right now, this is all just talk. There are no official plans to do this or make any such change. It is simply something that came up between the crafting Corrs. at the SWG Summit. We'd like to hash this issue out and see if there's merit to it and if it can be done in a way that 'balances' correctly.

I just want to appologize now, 'cause I'm the one that got this whole thing started by asking "what did the correspondants talk about besides the CB/CR?".

Don't apologize. I think I actually brought it up (or would have eventually). Where it started doesn't matter...it's where we finish that counts.



Some notes to consider:

We need a way to ensure that the "best" in the game can't be simply be thrown up en masse to a vendor.

The "best" weapon and armor will never be "thrown en masse to a vendor" because they require loot components. As AudioOrgana stated before, the Architect's problem with managing qualityof their end products is their problem, not a universal crafting issue.

This isn't just an Arch thing though. The looted comp. thing is noted and is definitely something to consider.

We need a way to ensure that there's an actual 'rares' market that has some kind of value or meaning.

Personally, if you really want to push "Rare DE products" then push for some loot enhancement. DE's (myself included) are notorious for not stocking vendors well due to the amount of options available to us (even before publish 7/8) and you'll find more often than not going to that it is not very well stocked.

It's not just our market..it's all of them. Player sare (were?) suppose to craft the best possible items in the game. That's not really the case for us as we well know. All MDEs make the same Level6 Medical module whether it's hand-crafted or crated. As it stands right now, we have no real practical "reward" for hand-crafting anything. As it relates to a 'rares' market for us, there would need to be inclusion of something that would make this possible at all.

Example: "Level6(Enhanced)Medical module" - produced via hand-crafting Med. Module with, say, tissue from a BE or components from a Master Doc box item.

We need a way to provide some decision or tradeoff on the part of both the crafter and his/her client.

Tradeoffs are already part of the end product. Variables in chassis, modules etc.

You'retalking about the product (R2,Probot, etc) instead of the quality available between identical products. That is, why is one MDEs R2 clearer "better" than anothers? Right now...they aren't.

If you're talking about weapons and armor, then there's the combat balance to make sure HAM costs become more of a tradeoff (that solves the problem for WS/AS). Chef's have tradeoffs on filling/uses/bonus for food.

Okay....but there's no unified standard. The fundamental issue here came up as a way to try to standardize the crafting systems and attain some kind of reason to hand-craft in comparison to always using factories.

This change (done right/well) would make the crafting game a lot more dynamic and interesting...hopefully.

I disagree. All it means is people will make stuff more by hand than with a factory.

Mmmm....maybe. The choice is there. This sort of harkens back to the one-day Crafting Experimentation change. Use a factory and get more convienence, inv. space, etc. but with a slight 'quality' hit. Use hand crafting and get a slightly better product that takes a bit longer to create(in any sort of quantity)

There are no bad ideas, viewpoints or opinions (just make sure to be nice and respect the other peeps issues).

I'll leave this with a quote I love on the matter from the venerable Mark Twain:

"That which we obtain too cheaply, we value too poorly."

I get the impression that you think that people arn't charging enough for goods?

Mmm...not that, so much. I think that some items aren't retaining their value in relation to what's needed to create them (especially using factories). Perhaps this is a server-dependent thing. /shrug


Personally, I think stuff costs a lot already in every galaxy ....with the possible exception being TestCenter. (I have to admit, TestCenter is a great server for starting from scratch with the kinds of prices they have there!)

I'd say that move Live servers have economies that are out of whack somewhat. TC seems a lot more close to where each Live server really should be...but that's just me.

Stuff may cost a lot, true. But the ease of obtaining the credit necessary to get said product is even easier. An example: A Doc can buy a 110 Med droid and recoup his costs in, what, maybe minutes? That's insane.

I know we can't really fix that overnight or anything...I'm just saying that it seems like the scales are out of balance (to me) and it would be good and healthy to see what (if any) kind of adjustments can or should be made. If the scales are fine...that's cool. It's all just talk.


As I said before, this is a big economic decision with larger ramifications.

That'swhy it's all justtalk. We're really in avery informal information gathering stage on this,JC.


If a change like this occurs, I'm fairly certain the cost of every product will increase at a larger rate. Is this what we want?

Yup...I do. Cause then having the "best" means more than it does now. When everyone can have the best of everything without proportional effort/time/money to obtain it...it loses its value. Do we want THAT?

Keep in mind, I'm not just talking about droids. I'm talking about every craftable across the board here.

Everyone seems to scale things in terms of # ofJanta missions nowadays (especially the Doc's). You still have to think about the noob who want a laser rifle or a scout blaster, and not just the Master Rifleman who wants a Krayt T21 or a Master Pistoleer who wants a DE-10. I'm exagerating, but I think I've made my point.


Yup...points made (and quite well too). It's great to have these opinions out there so that we can try to see what changes, if any, would be healthy for the economies and good for the crafting game. I just urge you all to keep an open mind on this (as I do). I don't want you all thinking I'm sold one way or another. As an industrialist type myself...remember that this would hit me where I 'live' too...

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I do NOT want to see industrialists punished for using a factory.

Punished? No.

Having to face a tradeoff of some kind for the benefits factories bring? You bet.

Justconsider this question, which we crafting Corrs worked from,for yourselves...(assuming a Master level crafter with access to factories)...

Why hand-craft? What's the "reward"?

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/bow

Respectfully,

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TheRealTK421 wrote:

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JavelinCatcher wrote:

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TheRealTK421 wrote:

First, doing the math for the exact amount of resources needed for components in order to acheive amount of product takes effort. In some cases, I think making sure you have enough components for product runs is a lot of work. I don't see how much "less work" there is between hand crafting and factory crafting. The difference is in preparation.

That's true. After awhile, it's very possible to have set 'runs' setup such that you only need really do such preparation once. Once you have your system in place all you need to do is 'crate-by-numbers' and it's a done deal.

It wasn't the prep-time that was as much of a concern. I think you'd save a TON of time using factories (with preparation) in comparison to the time needed to hand-craft the same number of items, for us anyway. Yes?

*Sowhy did you say the factory could craft 124 R3's faster than you could?

Second, it takes longer for a factory to make a item than hand craft it.

But you don't need to be there to do it. Also, this depends partly on how the hand-crafting is done.
If you're parting the whole thing from scratch...that wouldn't be true of more complex products.

I agree you don't need to be there to do it. Which would you rather be doing, being escorted by elites through the DWB or making sure your vendor is stocked?

Don't believe me? Race the factory one time making R3 chassis. The BIG difference is that you don't have to be sitting logged on to make the items.

Well, I know that I can make 124 R3 Adv. chassis with a factory faster than I could by hand. Do you not agree?

*I don't agree. If all sub components are crated, I can crank out 5 chasis in less time than a factory does using 5 crafting tools. The timer on the factory is what? 120 something (I don't recall offhand). The timer on the crafting tool is much less.

Some notes to consider:

We need a way to ensure that there's an actual 'rares' market that has some kind of value or meaning.

Personally, if you really want to push "Rare DE products" then push for some loot enhancement. DE's (myself included) are notorious for not stocking vendors well due to the amount of options available to us (even before publish 7/8) and you'll find more often than not going to that it is not very well stocked.

It's not just our market..it's all of them. Player sare (were?) suppose to craft the best possible items in the game. That's not really the case for us as we well know. All MDEs make the same Level6 Medical module whether it's hand-crafted or crated. As it stands right now, we have no real practical "reward" for hand-crafting anything. As it relates to a 'rares' market for us, there would need to be inclusion of something that would make this possible at all.

Example: "Level6(Enhanced)Medical module" - produced via hand-crafting Med. Module with, say, tissue from a BE or components from a Master Doc box item.

Ok, the level'ed modules. It's my feeling now thatthis was a borked system to even begin with. At most we should have had 2: standard and advanced both with experimental maximums (ex: standard has the range from 1-3; advanced has range from 4-6). It just hasn't been a priority issue for us since we have other larger issues.

Already, the majority of the level 6 modules have their own gate: Lidium Extrusive ore andDioxis Inert gas anyone? You're lucky at this point if those have spawned on your server 5 times in the last year.

We need a way to provide some decision or tradeoff on the part of both the crafter and his/her client.

Tradeoffs are already part of the end product. Variables in chassis, modules etc.

You'retalking about the product (R2,Probot, etc) instead of the quality available between identical products. That is, why is one MDEs R2 clearer "better" than anothers? Right now...they aren't.

If 2 DE's used the same resources and crafted them both by hand, what's the difference then too?

If you're talking about weapons and armor, then there's the combat balance to make sure HAM costs become more of a tradeoff (that solves the problem for WS/AS). Chef's have tradeoffs on filling/uses/bonus for food.

Okay....but there's no unified standard. The fundamental issue here came up as a way to try to standardize the crafting systems and attain some kind of reason to hand-craft in comparison to always using factories.

Right now, you use factories if you have the resource stockpile....hand craft if you don't. This is more obvious to those using organic resources that have to be harvested (hide/meat/bone). What you are thinking of is the fact that WS/Arch/DE can mass produce items because harvesters harvest so much ...again, while we're away from the keyboard. With Armorsmiths, you have to pay huge contracts to get the hide you need. I've seen some chef's that will buy practically any meat in order to keep stock.

I'll leave this with a quote I love on the matter from the venerable Mark Twain:

"That which we obtain too cheaply, we value too poorly."

I get the impression that you think that people arn't charging enough for goods?

Mmm...not that, so much. I think that some items aren't retaining their value in relation to what's needed to create them (especially using factories). Perhaps this is a server-dependent thing. /shrug


Personally, I think stuff costs a lot already in every galaxy ....with the possible exception being TestCenter. (I have to admit, TestCenter is a great server for starting from scratch with the kinds of prices they have there!)

I'd say that more Live servers have economies that are out of whack somewhat. TC seems a lot more close to where each Live server really should be...but that's just me.

/agree

Stuff may cost a lot, true. But the ease of obtaining the credit necessary to get said product is even easier. An example: A Doc can buy a 110 Med droid and recoup his costs in, what, maybe minutes? That's insane.

Ok, the Doc issue. I've seen lines of 50 people long waiting on 1 Doc. I know players that won't play without getting a buff first. To me, that's just wrong. That is the reason why they can recoup that kind of money in minutes. If I see anything I wish I could see come out of the CB ...it's to see that concept go away. (Yes, I've played a Master Doc before).


If a change like this occurs, I'm fairly certain the cost of every product will increase at a larger rate. Is this what we want?

Yup...I do. Cause then having the "best" means more than it does now. When everyone can have the best of everything without proportional effort/time/money to obtain it...it loses its value. Do we want THAT?

Keep in mind, I'm not just talking about droids. I'm talking about every craftable across the board here.

Proportional time/effort/money is very relative. As a Master DE, if any of my RL friends started playing tomarrow I'd give him a Droid and a top-notch CDEF weapon at no charge. Expand this to guild operations and people can get all sorts of things without spending the time/money/effort to obtain them. You can't really limit that.

Everyone seems to scale things in terms of # ofJanta missions nowadays (especially the Doc's). You still have to think about the noob who wants a laser rifle or a scout blaster, and not just the Master Rifleman who wants a Krayt T21 or a Master Pistoleer who wants a DE-10. I'm exagerating, but I think I've made my point.


Yup...points made (and quite well too). It's great to have these opinions out there so that we can try to see what changes, if any, would be healthy for the economies and good for the crafting game. I just urge you all to keep an open mind on this (as I do). I don't want you all thinking I'm sold one way or another. As an industrialist type myself...remember that this would hit me where I 'live' too...

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I do NOT want to see industrialists punished for using a factory.

Punished? No.

Having to face a tradeoff of some kind for the benefits factories bring? You bet.

As Audio put it, you would be punishing them for mass producing. As I said before, there are already tradeoffs.

Justconsider this question, which we crafting Corrs worked from,for yourselves...(assuming a Master level crafter with access to factories)...

Why hand-craft? What's the "reward"?

The Ability to use looted components and to make a product that is customized to the user (colors anyone?)

Allow me to ask the contrary question: Why waste the lots, the power, and the resources to make a schematic and use a factory?

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Message Edited by Malitevv on 09-09-2004 10:13 PM