Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Discussion: Hand-crafting vs. Factory-crafting (relating to Quality of product)
TheRealTK421
Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:25 pm
#14
That wasn't the point of all this really. The player would still need to be mindful of the quality of materials used, using good tools, etc.
Malitevv wrote:
I'll be greatly annoyed if the hand-crafter who uses lower quality materials than I do ends up with better quality items than I do because I chose to use a schematic and a factory.
And....there's many points above that I agree with. Don't get me wrong, everyone. I'm not saying that I'm waving a flag that this is our priority or anything. It was just to kick around something that really seemed to get some steam at the Summit (unofficially).
I wanted to run it by you to get the DE reaction but (as I'd feared), I don't think the discussion happens here as well as it did in person.
For now, don't put much stock in this. However, be aware that some kind of underlying 'crafting revamp/balance' type thing was brought up quite a bit in some Corr-to-Corr chats. Nothing may come of it...but maybe something good for everyone could. That good stuff is what I'm really trying to get at here.
It's great to see viewpoints and opinions that will help to shape things if they ever do get a head of steam...
/bow
Respectfully,
LonelyGhost
Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:46 pm
#15
If the goal is to balance the choice of whether to hand-craft or factory craft, it could be attained in a different manner....but first....I tend to agree that, as applied directly to our profession, factory runs are required. As a previous poster said, we make Droids, and these droids have components in them that we can NOT make by hand. Microprocessors being the easiest example. The nature of our craft is such that we *require* the use of computers and machines to create the building blocks of our trade. The only droids I make in a factory are Suitcases and Bombs. And only MSE bombs atthat (or the clusters of det modules to put into handcrafted R3'). I only stock between 2-10 of each of the most active droid types. I dont mass produce (except as noted). I just like it better.
When applied to OTHER professions, yes, I could see where hand crafting everything could make for a better product. Swords come to mind. I have no real knowledge of this, but my gut says that no factory process can top the blacksmithing skills of a master Weaponsmith (Hatori Honzai?). Armor maybe to a degree. Chef, only in the most complex recipies, and even then maybe not. Tailor, doesn't really apply, almost everything is made by hand anyway. Architect, well, they are a special case....deeds magically transforming into castles? Yeah, right. But nothing there should be factory producable, only the components. etc...
So, on to what I think could make many of these thought moot. Nerf the harvesting process. Harvesters are the foundation of the crafting system. Resources, and resources alone, make the crafting work. If there are fewer resources, there are fewer mass-producers. Fewer mass-produceers means more hand crafters. People who make a couple dozen deeds a day, as opposed to people who make a couple *thousand* items a day. Seriously, how many home does an Architect need to make? There are waht, about 5k people on each server? There are Architects out there...solo ones with 5 or so accoutns or more and harv farms pulling in millions of untis of resources a day, and making thousands of items every week.
IMHO, this is the solution. Put the ber back to what it was. But it doesnt end there...it *can't* end there. Next you have to cut the mission payout on the top 5% payouts by 80% or so. Janta and Mokk payout 5k instead of 20 or 30k. If you dont, then the demand for goods will keep the prices skyrocketing, and continue to de-value the currency. If they do those 2 things...nerf ber and mission payouts (for only the high end missions), you will, over time, see the beginning of a more balanced crafting system, and better yet, would see many more people participating in crafting. As it is now, there is only need for one powergaming Crafter of each profession on each server. Need, mind you. Yes, anyone can do it, but why? Its why I dont make much or try too hard to sell stuff. There are people who make literally hunders of droids every day in factories.
They can do this because they pull in millions of resources a week. I know, I did it for a while. Its incredible what you can do with a million units of every type of resource you need.
So, to sum it up, while I like the goal of the thread idea, I think the path isn't really that effective. The solution lies in the roots of the game...credits and resources, and how easy it is to get them.
TheRealTK421
Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:54 pm
#16
I very much agree with this and it's one of the basic premises that this basic thread topic was meant to address. Finding a way to get at the changes that will not allow this situation to come to pass. It simply isn't healthy for the game or economy.
LonelyGhost wrote:
As it is now, there is only need for one powergaming Crafter of each profession on each server.
I also agree with most of the other items you'd mentioned. Lots are....err....not going to stay the same down the line. That's for sure. I think most people recognize the damage that the resource situation has caused in-game.
/bow
Respectfully,
TheRealTK421
Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:24 am
#17
Heya, all...
So, I figured I'd start a place where we could bring together all the viewpoints and such on this issue.
The short version is that there was/is an idea (or potential initiative) to change crafting about some so that there's a choice to be made when deciding to use factories or hand-craft in relation to the 'quality' of the final product.
Note: To add ideas/suggestions in a 'brainstormed' manner, please use this thread. Thanks.
The potential tradeoffs might be:
Note: Right now, this is all just talk. There are no official plans to do this or make any such change. It is simply something that came up between the crafting Corrs. at the SWG Summit. We'd like to hash this issue out and see if there's merit to it and if it can be done in a way that 'balances' correctly.
Some notes to consider:
I'll leave this with a quote I love on the matter from the venerable Mark Twain:
"That which we obtain too cheaply, we value too poorly."
Please..........................do not flame here. I plan to have the Devs pay attention to this discussion if/when the time comes.
/bow
Respectfully,
So, I figured I'd start a place where we could bring together all the viewpoints and such on this issue.
The short version is that there was/is an idea (or potential initiative) to change crafting about some so that there's a choice to be made when deciding to use factories or hand-craft in relation to the 'quality' of the final product.
Note: To add ideas/suggestions in a 'brainstormed' manner, please use this thread. Thanks.
The potential tradeoffs might be:
- Factory use:
- Pro: More product with less work (since the factories do it for you)
- Con: Slightly less potential 'quality' than a hand-crafted item
- Hand-crafting:
- Pro: Slightly higher quality than would be possible in comparison to building via factories
- Con: Longer build times / lower inventory possible
Note: Right now, this is all just talk. There are no official plans to do this or make any such change. It is simply something that came up between the crafting Corrs. at the SWG Summit. We'd like to hash this issue out and see if there's merit to it and if it can be done in a way that 'balances' correctly.
Some notes to consider:
- We need a way to ensure that the "best" in the game can't be simply be thrown up en masse to a vendor.
- We need a way to ensure that there's an actual 'rares' market that has some kind of value or meaning.
- We need a way to provide some decision or tradeoff on the part of both the crafter and his/her client.
- This change (done right/well) would make the crafting game a lot more dynamic and interesting...hopefully.
- There are no bad ideas, viewpoints or opinions (just make sure to be nice and respect the other peeps issues).
I'll leave this with a quote I love on the matter from the venerable Mark Twain:
"That which we obtain too cheaply, we value too poorly."
Please..........................do not flame here. I plan to have the Devs pay attention to this discussion if/when the time comes.
/bow
Respectfully,
Message Edited by TheRealTK421 on 09-15-2004 12:53 PM
Mightion
Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:40 am
#18
I'm a bit torn, myself. On one side, if I manage to make the uberest R2 unit possible, then I should have the right to crank them out in factories.
On the other side, given custom orders and the need to "grind" for exp for Force-sensitive crafting exp, I wouldn't mind hand-crafted final combines be given some type of bonus when I make a custom droid - say, I can get the HAM a little higher or improve it's battery efficiency a bit.
Final combines, mind you. I don't think subcomponents need to benefit from hand crafting, at least when it comes to droids. Weapons, and armor might be a different story.
EDIT: Keep in mind, though... if it comes to pass that you can make better items with hand-crafting, you're just gonna have people saying it's "unfair" they can't run that item then in their factory. 
Message Edited by Mightion on 09-09-2004 03:42 PM
TheRealTK421
Fri Sep 10, 2004 1:08 am
#19
Mightion wrote:
Um, I don't suppose we could get you to elaborate on that...
TheRealTK421 wrote:
Lots are....err....not going to stay the same down the line.
It was just an impression...nothing official or anything. If for no other reason than it really needs to happen.
/bow
Respectfully,
Rippen208
Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:43 am
#20
No time to say much else except this:
This may seem obvious, but whatever changes are made with this, they had better be enjoyable, and not tedious and boring. Lately there seems to be a trend towards making things seem so "realistic" and adding a "cost" to things (vendor nerf anyone?). Meanwhile they seem to forget that going overboard with that stuff takes the fun factor out of it and makes doing things a chore. I, for one, don't want to have to sit there and tediously handcraft everything I make just to get the best quality. If we make crafting even more of a chore, obviously it will drive more people (possibly including me) away from the profession, if not the game itself. When you've played for over a year, you're not necessarily gonna like being told that you have to do more work. Droids are difficult enough to make as it is (remember those EGPs and EMMs).
I'm skeptical of this whole idea, really. Just seems to be, at first glance, another attempt at meddling with things to make them more "realistic" (i.e., tedious and boring). I'm personally getting tired of that.
Rippen
This may seem obvious, but whatever changes are made with this, they had better be enjoyable, and not tedious and boring. Lately there seems to be a trend towards making things seem so "realistic" and adding a "cost" to things (vendor nerf anyone?). Meanwhile they seem to forget that going overboard with that stuff takes the fun factor out of it and makes doing things a chore. I, for one, don't want to have to sit there and tediously handcraft everything I make just to get the best quality. If we make crafting even more of a chore, obviously it will drive more people (possibly including me) away from the profession, if not the game itself. When you've played for over a year, you're not necessarily gonna like being told that you have to do more work. Droids are difficult enough to make as it is (remember those EGPs and EMMs).
I'm skeptical of this whole idea, really. Just seems to be, at first glance, another attempt at meddling with things to make them more "realistic" (i.e., tedious and boring). I'm personally getting tired of that.
Rippen
babyblue_d
Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:44 am
#21
TheRealTK421 wrote:
I very much agree with this and it's one of the basic premises that this basic thread topic was meant to address. Finding a way to get at the changes that will not allow this situation to come to pass. It simply isn't healthy for the game or economy.
LonelyGhost wrote:
As it is now, there is only need for one powergaming Crafter of each profession on each server.
The problem at its core:
This is the pointI was trying to make in the other thread .. its not about the hand crafters VS. the factorys .. its about a healthy "Player Run Economy" i may be wrong about this as i read it when at game was in bataandI cant remeber whereI readit (pcgamerI think) but this game is suppost to be the first game world with a100% player driven economy .. in other words no NPCvendors selling items of use to players ... zero zip zilch .. if itis useablel in gameplay andif you want it it has to be made by a player ..
industralization hurtsthe economy.
if your names not in bright lights than you will almost never be successful. becouse the known industral crafter can supply 50% of the player base .. that means you only need a few to control vast majority the market. You dont need to be agood crafter you just need to be rich going in to it, that makes it hardfor new players to "break in to the biz".this hurts the economy and is why in R/L there are laws aginst monopolies.
you want to know why are we sugesting factories?
with factorys in to the mix players can flood the makert with "the best" (by this i meen the best uncliced weapon ready to be taken to the smugler. this is not about loot items notise these already have a gateing system on them in the fact that thay are loot) but you all say the best is only after its sliced .. sure but its was the best unsliced of the unsliced wasent it? if that 33% damage slice went to a lesser weapon it would not be as good right ? and thats the gate in sliceing .. its not 100%
Infactorys you cant mess up you neverrun a risk of failing on a combined or experimenttation, but as a hand rafter you run these risks. this is what I feel needs to changeto help solve the item flood praoblem. now some may say the trade off is cutomizability the color thingbut this is ezely overcome. I know a DE that makes 4 runs of the same item so he can give the cistomer color options andI know lots of crafters that stock there vendors with many options in the way of chasiss thats ez once you got 1000 custer modules made .. so wheres the real trade off?
suppose I (for some strange reason)gave two players enoff resorsess& droidbrainsto make 1000 combat modules andthatI only wated ot keepthe best the resorsess could make and said the rest needed to be trashed.
The players are also gien identical PCS's and identical W/D/G crafting tools but the hand crafter gets3 more tools and the factory guy gets a factory + plower & mant
now what would the resoults be ?
by hand (ill be VERYleanent on the fails)
crit fails mabe 3% of the time = -30 units
subpar experimantation 10% on the time =-100 units
time spent infront of PC .. asuming a60 second build (time from tool open to next tool open)14.5 hours (remember this is PURE grindwith full experimantation)
items madeless fails = 870
byfactory
crit fails .. lats say the first isa miss =-1
subpar experimantation .. letshe fails 2times to get it right = -2
schematic = -1
time spent infront of PC .. asuming a200 second build =30 min(20 to make it load it and start it.. 10 min for checkups and unload)
items madeless fails = 996
so wheres the trade off for time spent?
now the factory would take 2 days much better to do it by hand but Iknow I for onecant grind 14.5 hours in one go withno food, no restroom break and no staying of the 30 secoond rule. this would take me 2 days as well.
this is whyI suggest factorysbut maby there are other ways to prevent these conditions .. gateing harvisters is not a bad idea .. but some things need to be worked out ... it just makes it harder to control the market for players that cant pay the incresed cost of resoses form the miners. there will still be 100's of k's comeing out of the ground it will just be harder to get at. .. still it might be a start point
but if you want us to shy away form this line of thought .. please help comeup with other ideas to solve the problems .. becouse it seems we all know that the problem is there ..
Message Edited by babyblue_d on 09-10-2004 02:56 AM
Gavvot
Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:57 am
#22
I think there is a very important pro in factory use that is missing in your pro/cons :
When you use a factory, you have no risk of fail or critical fail for max 1000 items in a row.
Something that is statistically not possible by hand crafting.
Currently, hand crafting not only take more time, but also have higher risk involved.
That particular reason is the only one that make me feel that hand crafted items should have the potentiality to be better than factory made.
Not the time involved.
Now, on the change itself, I do have some issues :
- The component/sub-component game is too deep and complex to be fully hand crafting. If hand crafting is better than factory run, the sub-component should be simplified.
- The component made by other profession, or buy at a component vendor : the result of experimentations isn't always visible on the product, neither is the fact that it is factory made or not. How will for exemple an Architect be able to trustfully buy droid storage modules to put in crafting stations? Experimentation already matter for them, but not for us.
This change if applied to component might have a risk to simply kill the component market (a market that is already way too small for the moment)
When you use a factory, you have no risk of fail or critical fail for max 1000 items in a row.
Something that is statistically not possible by hand crafting.
Currently, hand crafting not only take more time, but also have higher risk involved.
That particular reason is the only one that make me feel that hand crafted items should have the potentiality to be better than factory made.
Not the time involved.
Now, on the change itself, I do have some issues :
- The component/sub-component game is too deep and complex to be fully hand crafting. If hand crafting is better than factory run, the sub-component should be simplified.
- The component made by other profession, or buy at a component vendor : the result of experimentations isn't always visible on the product, neither is the fact that it is factory made or not. How will for exemple an Architect be able to trustfully buy droid storage modules to put in crafting stations? Experimentation already matter for them, but not for us.
This change if applied to component might have a risk to simply kill the component market (a market that is already way too small for the moment)
Message Edited by Gavvot on 09-10-2004 01:00 PM
Straker_Atrella
Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:47 am
#23
I simply don't understand where some people get the impression that new crafters do not have a chance. Maybe it is a server thing.
About 5 months ago on Scylla, that new crafter was ME. There were other droid engineers out there, I started with nothing. I sold scout resources, until I had enough money to buy a harvestor. Then I sold resources until I could buy another harvestor. Before I knew it, I had a fleet of them, thenI started to gather them for myself. Then I mastered Droid Engineer.
Did the oldder DE's have an edge? Sure. I worked hard, I advertised, I kept my vendor fully stocked, spending a lot of hard time and work. Were there resources that older DE's had that I didn't? Absolutely. I can't count how many times I spent every credit I had. The last one I remember was a 9 million credit purchase of Copper for 200k. That was scary and risky, but I did it. It moved my droids to the next level.
There is no "edge" in this game that hard work and enterprising cannot overcome. If you want to be a quiet backpack engineer, then do so, that is your choice. If I want to bust my arse stocking 4 vendors, that is mine. Now I am probably one of the most successful DE's on Scylla. It can be done.
It's not just droids either. 2 months ago, my friends started Armorsmith. Now he can't keep his vendor stocked and makes 2 million a day. The same with weaponsmiths I know that recently started. They work hard. They find what resources they need and get them.
I'm not buying the "all it takes is one Powergamer Crafter of each profession thought." Tonight, I literally burned through a brand new set of armor, in one night!! Quite often, my "favorite" vendor is out of something I need, I then go to another. Mineral resources may be plentiful, but scout resources are not. Quality on some stuff goes up and down, depending on that. Again, maybe it is a server thing, but there simpyl are not monopolies on ours.
Also, I disagree with resources are too easy to get and plentifull. I have harvested 900k units of 1000 oq chemical, from 2 different spawns, I am down to about 200k. Knowing I am getting low, I buy it when I see a good price. I have had to buy Tolium, Inert Gas, as well as Steel. Even though I run 18+ Harvestors, and probablyharvested over a million of each. GOOD spawns are rare, you harvest as much as you can get, yet that still may not last you.
Of course I like to make money as a DE, however, what keeps me going is offering the best droids the server can make, plus constantly upgrading my droids. EVERY day, I look for new spawns of something that may add a point or two to my droids. The LAST thing I want is a change to resources or lots that will mean after a few weeks I will be out of something and my droids will backslide.
Yes I know this has drifted slightly off topic, but I am strongly disturbed by what seems to be a trend in thought that Monopolies rule the world and to many resources are being mined. Some people choose to run a "Mom & Pop" type operation, some want to run a Franchise. Both types are valid, but those are choices made by PLAYERS, and not the game.
Now I'm not saying the game is perfect. There is far to little risk, and the combat revamp is badly needed. So revemp combat, tone down armor, nerf weapons, do whatever you need to do to balance the game. DON'T take the ability to obtain equal equipment out of the hands of your average player.
If I die from bad luck, that is fine.
If I die because he had more skill that is fine.
If I die because he was able to pay 30 million for his armor, and I had only 5 million to bid, that is not fine.
This is the road that this leads too.
DarkRenown
Fri Sep 10, 2004 5:50 am
#24
Whilst I quite like the idea of Hand Crafting getting some improved bonuses to the final product, I don't think this is always practical.
For example, most droids require sub components, these can number up to 10 different sub components, and many require Factory produced components. As it stands, Sub Components (excluding modules) do not affect the final product in any way (with regards to the quality of it). So hand crafting these is pointless.
As for hand crafting the finished product, 90% of my droids are hand crafted, purely from the basis that I do not sell enough to warrant a factory run, and even if I did, my 2 factories work overtime producing sub components LOL
On a note about monopolies. I am a relatively new Master DE, I have made some custom droids, but have a vendor on Corellia and on Talus. With the help of my guildmates I worked my way up to Master, but produced and sold regular droids whilst I was doing this.
Now I am Master, I make a moderate sum of money each week, normally 100-200K. This may not seem a lot to some, but it is enough for me to pay the upkeep on my factories, house, vendors and Harvesters, and leaves me enough to contribute to my Guild as necessary, help out new starters, and friends when I can.
I won't claim to be one of the Uber-DE's on the server, I know there are at least 3 who produce higher rated droids, the difference is my price is on the whole lower and more accessible to new players.
Not sure what my point was now lol
Daker-Naritus
Fri Sep 10, 2004 5:54 am
#25
TheRealTK421 wrote:
- We need a way to ensure that the "best" in the game can't be simply be thrown up en masse to a vendor.
- We need a way to ensure that there's an actual 'rares' market that has some kind of value or meaning.
- We need a way to provide some decision or tradeoff on the part of both the crafter and his/her client.
- This change (done right/well) would make the crafting game a lot more dynamic and interesting...hopefully.
- There are no bad ideas, viewpoints or opinions (just make sure to be nice and respect the other peeps issues).
Really TK, I think all of this is already accomplished with the current system.
My opinion is this.... There are A LOT of consumers in this game. With my combat characters, I spend A LOT of time looking for good equipment, mostly because it is sometimes hard to find crafters that stay in business more than3-4 months.
I see no problems with factory crafted things as they currently exist, because they allow players to obtain items without spending a full gaming night (1) looking for a live crafter who is willing to help you, (2) waiting for the crafter tohand-craft things for you.If you make regular hand crafting superior to factory crafting (in essense nerfing factory crafting because the developers will never give us a free bonus for hand crafted items), you are just making it harder for regular players to get good regular items when they need to.
I will also note that factory created items currently ARE NOT equal to hand crafted items for anyone that is looking for good weapons/armor/etc. (for everyone other than DE that is). The reason for this is that the best weapons/armor/etc. are crafted with some sort of rare looted item, that is only usuable in small quantities (ex: krayt tissues, various segments, etc.). When someone is looking to buy the best armor/weapons possible, they have to get a hand crafted item because that is the ONLY way that craftables with dropped components can be made.
I will note that I do not think that DE is effected by the hand crafting question as much as other professions... The nature of the DE beast is that (1) 75% of the droids I have made are hand crafted because people want to customize them, and (2) the wierd number of components needed makes it near impossible to do large quantity factory runs in most situations.
Basically, I don't think it will benefit the player base in ANY way to nerf factory crafting. If that were the case, the only way to create an acceptable quantity of good items for the average player would be to have crafters spend hours upon hours creatign sub-components just to end up with a couple of good items. Most of the crafters I know struggle to keep up with even their factory runs, let alone having to hand craft to make good items.
If there needs to be an added incentive to hand crafting, I would rather see a change to the loot drop system whereby many more looted components (albiet weaker ones) are placed into the game to encourage more hand crafting.
I don't think that disadvantaging players who can't find a decent crafter who is willing to hand craft should notbe an option...
Message Edited by Daker-Naritus on 09-10-2004 09:39 AM
Velneth
Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:09 am
#26
Warning, at heart I'm extreamly pro hand crafting. But there's some sides to the issue that I think need to be addressed.
Okay, with the warning done, I'll get to the point.
Hand crafting for DE's doesn't make a single bit of difference either way. Most of our stuff is quality doesn't matter, and the stuff where quality does matter, well, one can normally create "acceptable" results even with imperfect materials.
Where this is going to hit hard is the weapon and armor people. They're in a position where they -need- identical, high quality parts to make thier items. So they need to make factory runs. Even if they hand craft what they can, their quality is going to take a hit.
Which of course results in the combat classes being loud and obnoxious.
If this idea is good or not probably will end up hanging on how they do the combat revamp, and how it affects the equipment crafters. If the CR puts in certain limitations and if handcrafting can create a bit better of a weapon, then possibly we'll see people accept hand crafting as a legitimate means of doing buisness.
Okay, with the warning done, I'll get to the point.
Hand crafting for DE's doesn't make a single bit of difference either way. Most of our stuff is quality doesn't matter, and the stuff where quality does matter, well, one can normally create "acceptable" results even with imperfect materials.
Where this is going to hit hard is the weapon and armor people. They're in a position where they -need- identical, high quality parts to make thier items. So they need to make factory runs. Even if they hand craft what they can, their quality is going to take a hit.
Which of course results in the combat classes being loud and obnoxious.
If this idea is good or not probably will end up hanging on how they do the combat revamp, and how it affects the equipment crafters. If the CR puts in certain limitations and if handcrafting can create a bit better of a weapon, then possibly we'll see people accept hand crafting as a legitimate means of doing buisness.