Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Sorry folks, the math says probots are overpowered like hell
Tarne_Monter
Wed Mar 03, 2004 8:56 pm
#105
Tal-N wrote:
Whoa.. Look at your math some.
70-80 damge over 2.47 seconds is 30 dps not 32.
32 is from using 80 damage.
Don't fudge your data, it's bad form!
Yeah sorry, did 2.0 by accident. Thankfully it doesn't mess up the results too much. I was gonna go back and correct it but figured reasonable folks would understand the slip up wasn't major.Following your 3:2:1 ratio I get about 15 dps on the health bar So that's 60 seconds for the probot to get through the 900 health.But as we know this doesn't always apply, it's possible for the health bar to be hit a greater deal more than x3 what the mind is and vice versa. It's just a general rough rule which is why I don't insist on using it over and over.And then assuming that your 45 dps is correct.All animals in the wild have 2.0 second attack speed. The damage range for this species is 80-90. This is pricely why I don't use mobs for testing of this nature as they have specials which increase their DPS plus they behave more intelligently causing too many random variables.Before I get into the data crunching. If you are trying to do this scientifically and you aren't *repeating* your experiments, then that pretty much doesn't make your results worth much.The testing was to find which CL rating the probot was closest too. Sending the probot against multiple CL9 species would have given you exactly the same results, thus is the nature of the CL rating system. Therefore I simply picked the peko peko which was handy, from there I saw the fight could swing one way or another. This told me that while it might have won this battle it might not others. Therefore it was my first indication that the probot was around CL14. I then tested it agains a CL22 and as expected it was kicked around like a metal football. That means it was somewhere between 14 and 22. Thats when I bumped into someone and asked if they had a pet inside the CL14-20 range to help me test. The fact is that repeated testing against CL17 enemies would show more often than not it'd lose, by different margins of course but still lose. Therefore it is weaker than CL17. The othertrouble is that the range of animals between CL14 and CL20 is extremely limited in the galaxy. Certainly not enough to test against ten seperate species all at CL17.Ok. 80 dps following the standard ratio is 40 dps to health.Again I don't use the 3:2:1 ratio much because of how it works. It's based totally on collision detection which means species that have smaller torso's suffer less damage to the health pool, in the case of the Peko Peko with it's huge wings and legs by the time the battle was in full swing there was a 5:5:1 ratio for damage being split equally across health and action.I'm kinda glad I saved these screenies as they illustrate why I don't religiously use the ratio.http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=46577You will see this happen again and again with birds againsts mobs and sometimes with players as well. It's those damn wings, they move around covering the body effectively protecting the animal allowing it to take additional hits. Shaupant are difference since they are more humanoid in shape, the probot itself actually does a decent job of maintaining that 3:2:1 ratio however it tends to take far more health damage due to it's bulbous body and small arms. I don't think it has anything that could be characterised as a head which explains why the mind is rarely touched.
Now this guys does 90 dps which becomes 45 dps to health before resistance. After resistance it becomes 27 dps.
And so with the 820 health of a probot he's gone in about
30.37 seconds. And I do agree that this guy wins.
You missed my mistake that I didn't change here either. The effective ham to energy should be 4095, I think I must have hit subtract on the calculator by accident. But again stop using the ratio formula since it isn't reliable due to how it works. For humanoids yes, it works very well. Against animals with varying sizes and proportions it's utterly useless.
I was using the ratio because from my experience it seemed to be a good generalization of how the damage spreads over combat. Of course it's not going to be completely accurate for every situation. The point under contention was the time it took the probot to kill enemy A vs. the time it took enemy A to kill the probot.
And as far as the repeating goes. What you should do is do at least 10 runs of combat against the same type of CL9 creature and the same probot. Then do the same with the CL14. Then after each combat record the actual or approximate HAM left by the victor.
Then well call that actual relevant data.
If you want to throw in BE pets of the same CL go ahead. But you should also do at least 10 runs with them as well.
Shian_Tavkin
Wed Mar 03, 2004 9:42 pm
#106
Well as usual I am calm and relaxed
And I believe it's true to say I have never, ever read such a pile of horse**** as that which TAL is posting.
As a Troll, he sure gets my vote as Troll of the Year so far.
I had finally developed a liking for BE, before this tirade came to our boards, but now I see that that was misplaced.
TAL, you are, without any doubt, the most self seeking, egotistical purveyor of Bull**** that I have ever had the misfortune to read. You just cant stand that a profession that has had zero could, just for a change, get something good can you?
And, if you continue in this vein, then you will deserve the wrathful vengance of the devs on BE. Every advantage you have can and will be analysed to death in order to prove that your Buffs, Foods, Lack of Batteries, Lack of hard cap on experimentation, variety, 'element of fun' etc etc are unwarranted and unbalancing. Not satisfied with taking the CH profession down, you want to do the same to DE, which affects what, 10% of your market?
If you really want the eye of scrutiny to pass again over BE waters, then just keep digging, because for all your 'science' there is one thing for sure, the Devs know a Zealot when they see one, and they do not like it.
Beware an in depth scrutiny of your own profession, because if you manage to spoil our day in the sun, be sure the rainclouds will be coming your way very shortly thereafter.
To say I dislike the tone and attitude you present is an understatement, but to alter your position time and time again in the same thread is unforgivable.
Go play with your spreadsheets somewhere else.
or to put it another way..Bugger Off
Malitevv
Wed Mar 03, 2004 10:22 pm
#107
now, now everybody. there's no reason to assume to know what Tal's motives are.namecalling and isn't necessary. He' dug a deep enoughhole for himself already. no reason to throw mud into thehole after him.
Kilarny
Wed Mar 03, 2004 10:27 pm
#108
/examine deep hole Tal-N is in.
/drop boulder into hole
Shian called it, Tal-N...go away already. Your conclusions are incorrect, and you're bugging people.
Lonkley
Wed Mar 03, 2004 10:47 pm
#109
Tal-N wrote:
It's it's reported as CL100 then it means it is supposed to be equal to a CL100 mob in the game (unless there is an intended bonus ala bio-engineered/crafted). The exception to thisare bugs which occour, the bottom line though is that the rating is supposed to have a meaning and reflect the 'toughness' of the mob or pet.
You misunderstand the point. You can "call" a probot CL100, orCL20 or CL10. You can assign any number to it you like, and it still has no use for anyone who is past a novice profession.
Ah, that I were bound in a nutshell and made to think myself king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams.
Pahbi
Wed Mar 03, 2004 11:12 pm
#110
I'm personally embarassed that Tal is a fellow BE.
After all this time DE's finally get a little love and all he can do is nerf herd.
- Pahbi
MCH / MBE on Chilastra
Proud member of BVC
HawkCormyr
Thu Mar 04, 2004 1:03 am
#111
As the DEV have said about droid invasion is that every player that is NOT a ch need some help in combat and that it WILL be droids.
Looking at things that way it is normal that droids CL10 should be more powerfull than CL10 pet has droids have to be more usefull and powerfull than pet for any non CH.
But by the way try the pratical experiment between BE CL10 pet and a probot and you will see that actually pet have still some beautyfull days aheads and i am not sure that even this patch will change anything to that as pokewars still rule this game ...
duncje
Thu Mar 04, 2004 1:10 am
#112
Shian, that line is a load of *self-edit* anyway. He was not attempting to avoid a nerf when he started this thread, as the stats he used are those of a Pre-TC Probot, and the Current TC Probot didn't even exist when this thread was created. It's a joke that he's trying to spin this off this way....
Shian_Tavkin wrote:
Tal-N wrote:
I'm attempting to avoid a nerf when this hits live and the devs realise something is up, something any DE I would have realised by now.
So nice of you to be putting in all this effort to avoid a potential future DE nerf. So...unselfish of you.
You are in this for your own self interest, and not in any way to the benefit of DE
Hypocrite that you are, with your arcane mathematics based on completely liquid foundations, subjective 'truths' and no doubt when you get back from TC with your results they will prove your point entirely.....and why will we not be surprised.
Go away..we do not wish to hear your prattling BE voice peddling untruths and opinion as fact.
like I said before, DE is coming your way, and you would be better off in your own forums discussing the dizzying variety of creatures you can play with (1000's is it) as opposed to being here discussing our one and only combat droid.
SkyeDarkangel
Thu Mar 04, 2004 1:24 am
#113
I'm sorry, I've never been a BE, but I've been a DE, and frankly, if they upped CL10 pets to stronger than the Probot (even a bit) I think many of us would be complaining as well.
Probots are much stronger than a CL10 pet, my guild mates and I have been playing with them for quite a while because once I hit DE everyone wanted to try out a droid (because I gave them for free, they were too useless to pay for). Basically a Probot is much stronger than ANY CL10 Pet even our BE can come up with, but their disadvantage? Inability to be healed. This is changing.
I was able to clear our 2 male plain tusk cats from my factories today with my Probot and my Republic blaster. I have NO combat skills (not even Novice Marksman) so I hit maybe once every 5 attacks. My probot was redlined and almost dead, but he took out two in a row (not at the same time) without healing. I remember when I started I could BARELY take one at Unarmed IV. And back then, my friends were impressed I could fight one and win. (First week or game)
Now, Probots are strong. And with the new changes, they're going to be stronger. Effect? We cut out the CL10 BE market by a portion. The Portion that aren't going up CH. (Probots don't give CH experience)
So this guy is upset. Is that unfair? If BE's got to make pets that could act as protable crafting stations, and they were just a TINY bit stronger than ours, I think we'd be up in arms in a second.Heck, give them anything we have and we'd be up in arms. No one wants to see another class cutting into their territory, I'm still pretty ticked off that BE's and CH's can heal pets without Medic skills from my Doctor days!
The overall problem? DE's have nothing. I don't know how you guys even sell Probots! The ONLY use I've been able to find is for my CH guild mates who aren't far in the tree and wanted the ranged support a Probot can give while they're using their pet. That is pretty effective. Overall though? Probots AND CL10 Pets are utterly useless! They aren't strong enough to clean up random spawns by factories (unless we're talking Diseased nuna's here) and even if they can take out larger stuff like a plains tusk cat, they're so damaged afterwards it's not worth the risk or cost of stims! Pop a Pixie and some Brandy and rush in and get what you need done fast, or get someone to kill them/pull them away.
Remember, the Dev's do all their start work using mathematically simulations. Thats what this whole game is based on. If you think Math is so whacked and only REAL data can prove it. Remember that that real data IS NUMBERS! Thats right, your Probot is going to be doing 70 - 80 damage right now, minus whatever the targets energy defense is, regardless of what you think. Why? Because it's computers.
The real problem isn't that Probots are overpowered, the problem is we DE's have NOTHING! Crafting station droids? Buy one and you're set for life! An R3 with all craftions, a med module, and item storage, is about all you'll need if you're a crafter... ever! But CH pets are the same, right? Buy one and you're set? No. BE's get to mix all shorts of stuff and experiment to "tweak" the effects. We get to add maybe 5 to each HAM with 10 whole experimentation points. Even if this changes, damage and it's ilk will be capped as regular.
I don't like what you're suggesting about "nerfing" the probot because it's too powerful, but it's like arguing that DE's get 5 extra damage on a stupid CDEF! Who's going to use a stupid CDEF anyway? Pets will still sell because people need the CH experience and because many players are still naive enough tothink they really help. If you're not part combat, the only point to a Probot or a CL10 pet is looks and little spawn.
So keep in mind that many DE's are being very rude and short tempered, and while it's not right, WE DON'T HAVE ANYTHING ELSE! DE's are the most useless class around right now! I can barely GIVE away droids on Lowca! I make maybe 3 sales a MONTH! And thats usually in bulk because someone wanted Surgicals or Crafting droids to help Hologrind!
My Probot owns every CL10 Pet I've had, and I tried a lot of them because I always wanted something powerful enough to take on mobs and stuff while I ran factories or harvestors or just so I could do basic missions to cover shuttle costs. Probots are going to own EVERY CL10 Pet when Repair kits come out, hands down. I know mine can stand toe-to-toe with a CL20, especially if I shoot for 150 damage every half minute.
There needs to be a huge revamp of the entire DE profession. Compared to ANY other class we lack: 1. Variety of things to build. 2. Variety of thinks touse to make things we build unique. 3. Usefulness in our products. 4. Continuity of sales. (This will slightly change with Droid Repair kits, as people will need to heal their droids)
Yes, Probots are too powerful, thats been my experience by far, but if anyone is using a Probot or a CL10 pet solo it's mostly a waste of their time, they aren't getting anything worthwhile. 150 credits from a bandit? Or Hide off an Ikopi? NERF NERF NERF!!! He's not a Novice Marksman but he's killing IKOPI's!!!
BE's have a lot of things they can do, Tissues, Additives, Pets, Stims, most of them are necessary to make other classes really good stuff. DE's have... um... nothing. The most useful thing we can make is a Droid Storage Device for Vehicle Customization kits! (Everyone wants their own tricked out ride!)
DE's need a purpose. Leave us our slightly above average CDEF, it's all we've got darn it.
duncje
Thu Mar 04, 2004 1:33 am
#114
Now, Probots are strong. And with the new changes, they're going to be stronger. Effect? We cut out the CL10 BE market by a portion. The Portion that aren't going up CH. (Probots don't give CH experience)
Skye, we will not be cutting out any portion of the BE CL10 Pet market. With this Publish that is currently on Test, a player can have a CL10 Droid and a CL10 Pet out at the same time. Pets and droids can co-exist, there is no having to choose one over the other.
SkyeDarkangel
Thu Mar 04, 2004 1:53 am
#115
There's no choice to having to use anything other than a CDEF at Pistols IV. But I choose to use my FWG5 anyway.
I know I don't bother with pets anymore, and I can't even heal my Probot yet. I know several others that have tested it and said they won't bother using CL10 pets if Probots aren't nerfed and they can heal them. The only disadvantage is the need for constant batteries.
If there was a CL10 pet that was basically 2x as strong as the other CL10 pets, would you use a weaker one? 
And sorry, did assume they will be stronger with the new Publish, this isn't necessarily true until the Dev's respond that Drashk's test are accurate and expected.
Sorry, but this is the simple truth. I've been on opposite sides of my own professions before, so I know how something can steal away business for another. A good example, Brandy has virtually replaced Muon Gold. No downer, the BE stuff is stronger, and Brandy lasts longer. The effect? Muon doesn't sell anymore. Period. Our guild Spice seller used to make a decent profit off of Muon, now I don't think he sells ANY.
Anything that is equal to or better than something else WILL take market away from it. Just because some people will prefer one side over the other. (You have to admit, Probots win in the coolness factor over most lower end pets)
SkyeDarkangel
Thu Mar 04, 2004 1:56 am
#116
Sorry, forgot to add:
People who don't want to try to control 2 pets at once will choose Probot for it's slightly greater strenght. Also, would you want to keep buying 2 different types of Stims all the time? It's much easier to buy bulk of one and stick with it. Sadly, you can add the abilities of a CL10 pet just by having a Republic Blaster and shooting the stuff yourself.
You do have a point in their coexisting though, but since a CL10 pet doesn't take damage very well it won't be as nice an option and will prove easier for younger or less combat-prone players to use. (Since the pet can't take damage and the Probot shoot from a distance where it's more likely to hit)
Tal-N
Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:52 am
#117
Oh well, some days you just can't make people see any sense. I sincerely hope you guys don't get the nerf which looks like is going to catch up with you.