Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Droid Decay System 2.0
Knapf
Mon Jul 19, 2004 7:31 am
#79
Straker_Atrella wrote:
We seem to disagree on a couple of different things.
I feel that the current droid system is diverse enough, that the way you make it even more diverse is with the addition of new content. You seem to want to change the entire crafting system in order to make diverse and challenging droids. While fun, it may also possibly result in worse droids, which would drop sales. Sure we could all sit back here on the boards and chat about how fast I made my R5, but that wont help the droid economy.
Fix the bugs with the system, make it better, add new content to add diversity, no need to revamp everything.
Now on the droid decay "Nerf" as you called it. I putpeople in these catagories.
1. People who relly on them for work, they NEED them. Docs for example.
2. People who like them.
3. People who really don't care either way.
4. People who have no use for droids.
Once the Jedi grind is over, we may see a spike in Droid sales, as people go to their "final" professions, but then after that, things may actually get worse then ever.
People in catagory 1 will always be forced to get droids. Droid Decay or not. Number 4 couldn't care either way.
However, it is the number 2 and 3 people that your solution may push away. They may use droids on occassion, but this occassion would be even rarer if it decayed with no benefit. When the droid finally died, would they even bother tobuy a droid they only used twice a month? Maybe maybe not.
I sell a lot of droids, yet I also give out any free droids that our guild members want. I make sure all our scouts have Harvestors, others have Tanks, Maint Droids, and more. The funny thing is that of our 30 people in our guild, maybe only 5 of them use the droids often. Well the docs do, but their forced too. Even though the droids are free, they are still a bother and are troublesome.
If people think that of free droids, how can you think that making them even worse will make them more desirable?
Just because a "nerf" is good for the Droid Community or we have been asking for it forever, does not mean it needs to be implemented in a manner that will even turn more droid users away.
AMEN Brother..
You hit all the Buckets on this one.. A renewable market is awesome and needed to get more people to buy/make droids but this will give people that may want a droid a reason not to buy one. Look at slicing a weapon.. I tell eachclient that slicing the weapon will make itdecay faster.. Do they Care? Not even one bit..When asked why? Simple. They want it to work better, More damage/faster is why they bought it in the first place.Sowill it kill the gun faster? sure it will. do they still wantitdone?.Damn right they do.So while mostDEs based on the poll for Batteries want some level of decay to renew the market. I would say sell a droid thata player uses like a gun and you won't have to ask for decay the Devs will bring it in pretty box with a bow on it.
Like we have been saying all along. Decay the heck out of the droid, but give the user something worth decaying over. All you will do with this in NERF the DEs clientele.
Thanks for coming.
Peace
Message Edited by Knapf on 07-19-2004 07:37 AM
TheRealTK421
Mon Jul 19, 2004 8:59 am
#80
Heya, all...
A few quick items:
- I'm am concerned that there isn't enough reward built into the proposed system. Yes, we're asking for something of a nerf by doing this. There really should be some kind of reward to offset the risk that's taken on by adding droid decay. I don't know what that is (not having to use Batteries or something close, I'd think).
If anyone can come up with a sensible reward (that's hopefully easy to code), then this will really have legs. - Last night, I attended a DENet meeting on Bloodfin and this topic came up. Some fo the concerns were:
- How many repair kits are we headed toward? We don't want to see that number get out of hand.
- What precisely will break and when? (i.e. what happens to a Data module that breaks, or a storage module that breaks...or an Adv. Droid Motive System that breaks)
- Is there a way to implement decay and make the systemeven more simple and straightforward (convoluted solution == bad). The current proposal isn't confusing to ME...but I can see how it would be yucky to try to explain all this to droid owners.
- I put forth a modified version of the proposal that might be easier and give the same basic results:
A. Droids would use batteries as they do now (perhaps modified for a 'reward' for the new decay system)
B. If your droid went " ** Low Power ** ", you could continue to use the functions (I know...hold on).
C. When using your droid in a ** Low Power ** state, it would 'tick' off Vitality ('Integrity') at some set rate. I might suggest something....err...healthy, like 1 Vitality point for every 5 min. of ** Low Power ** use.
D. At different milestones (Vitality = 20%, 40%, or 'quarterly), your droid would have some kind of part/module break and need replacment.
E. When the droid Vitality was 0-10%, it would become "disabled". It could be called from the Datapad but would be effectively unusable. No functionality. There would need to be a system message a la:
"Your droid refuses to respond and will need to be repaired by a Droid Engineer."
F.When the droid owner took the droid to the DE, X number of parts would need to be dropped into the droid (sort of like feeding it batteries) and it would reactivate. I'd say the DE sees a radial menu item on the droid ("Debug Droid" , /debugDroid) and then they are told what parts to insert into the window.
G. After repair, the droid returns to max. Vitality (note: any current HAM / wound damage would not be fixed and would still need to be repaired with use of the correct kit).
Does that altered suggestion seem to work better?
Or....can we meld the two together somehow?
/bow
Respectfully,
Straker_Atrella
Mon Jul 19, 2004 12:35 pm
#81
We seem to disagree on a couple of different things.
I feel that the current droid system is diverse enough, that the way you make it even more diverse is with the addition of new content. You seem to want to change the entire crafting system in order to make diverse and challenging droids. While fun, it may also possibly result in worse droids, which would drop sales. Sure we could all sit back here on the boards and chat about how fast I made my R5, but that wont help the droid economy.
Fix the bugs with the system, make it better, add new content to add diversity, no need to revamp everything.
Now on the droid decay "Nerf" as you called it. I putpeople in these catagories.
1. People who relly on them for work, they NEED them. Docs for example.
2. People who like them.
3. People who really don't care either way.
4. People who have no use for droids.
Once the Jedi grind is over, we may see a spike in Droid sales, as people go to their "final" professions, but then after that, things may actually get worse then ever.
People in catagory 1 will always be forced to get droids. Droid Decay or not. Number 4 couldn't care either way.
However, it is the number 2 and 3 people that your solution may push away. They may use droids on occassion, but this occassion would be even rarer if it decayed with no benefit. When the droid finally died, would they even bother tobuy a droid they only used twice a month? Maybe maybe not.
I sell a lot of droids, yet I also give out any free droids that our guild members want. I make sure all our scouts have Harvestors, others have Tanks, Maint Droids, and more. The funny thing is that of our 30 people in our guild, maybe only 5 of them use the droids often. Well the docs do, but their forced too. Even though the droids are free, they are still a bother and are troublesome.
If people think that of free droids, how can you think that making them even worse will make them more desirable?
Just because a "nerf" is good for the Droid Community or we have been asking for it forever, does not mean it needs to be implemented in a manner that will even turn more droid users away.
Batleh
Mon Jul 19, 2004 1:52 pm
#82
Straker_Atrella wrote:That sounds pretty good TK.First my thoughts on the Data and Storage module. If your droid is low power or disabled, you can open it, and take items out, but you can't put anything back in. Kind of like a factory output hopper.I like the idea of replacing modules and stuff, well sorta, here are my 2 problems with it.1. I think coding wise, that is a nightmare. Once the droid is made, I don't think it really has modules anymore, just abilities. Like Harvesting, Medical or whatever. Actually losing or adding those may be very hard to code.2. While replacing modules and parts seems cool, it could create problems. For example, lets say a DE has 200 customers, this isn't unrealistic, some may have more. If droid modules start to break at different times, such as his storage today, 2 days later his med module. If you have 200 customers + doing this, it could create a problem. Sure other DE's could fill in, but what if they don't make as good modules?Yes they could just buy a new droid I guess. Maybe.I'm pretty busy when I log on, resources, factories stocking my vendor keeps me busy. Repairing droids I could probably do, but not always when it was convieniant for my customers. Not being able to get their module replaced could be frustrating.While the module replacement seems very cool, I could see it causing problems.
Straker -
What if the modules that broke first weren't the "functional" modules? Say, > 50% or so vit only things like motive systems or sensor packages (the components) would fail. Just about any DE (even a novice) can make most of these components rather easily, and it gives the novice DE's a viable market. I'm sure that some new DE's would be happy to camp in town grinding away and playing repair shop for some extra credits. This gives them a more valued place in the community, and something they can do while they wait for all of their experimentation points. As the droid became more and more abused, the functional modules would start breaking, which would possibly require the intervention of a higher level DE. At that point, it almost becomes easier to just sell them a new droid.
As for your worry about the implimentation of this, look at lightsabers. This kind of system is already in place there, it's more than likely coming for vehicles and space craft, so I'm pretty sure that the underlying mechanics are already there. The other benefit that this could eventually provide is the ability to upgrade or swap out droid components, which would be a "win" from the customer point of view I think.
Tying this to the "low power" state basically puts the decay directly in the hands of the user for non-combat droids. It will increase the demand for batteries (which is good for Artisans and upcoming engineers), and will allow the decay to be avoided by those who wish to "take good care" of their droids. By keeping the droid properly charged, this decay can be avoided. That in and of itself will help this "nerf" be more acceptable to the masses.
Straker_Atrella
Mon Jul 19, 2004 2:30 pm
#83
Yea that's not to bad, and I understand what your saying about Lightsabers.
Now I don't know the SOE code, but I don't think they work the same.
See with Lightsabers, they were never a deed, they are an object that is made, that you put crystals into. You can now take the crystals out as well. They were always different anyway, because you took the lower gen sabers and put them in the higher gen ones. The crystals continue to exist.
Now with droids, let's walk through the process.
1. Take subcomponants, like manip arms and motive systemsand add them all together to make the chasis. Once you have the chasis, all of the other parts no longer exist. They are gone, they were turned into the chasis.
2. Then the Chasis is combined with the modules to make the final droid. Once this is gone, you have a deed. The modules and chasis are gone, the inidivual values lost.
3. The deed is then called and you have a real droid. This droid functions based upon on whatever it's numbers are, like Harvest rating and such. The modules and all the other parts no longer exist.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this isn't possible, but they would need to track each and every part through 3 different stages of crafting. Basically changing the while droid system. Keeping track of each module stat and such. It could probably be done, but "may" require far more coding then they are willing to do.
I'm not opposed to asking for this, but possibly the harder our Droid Decay system is to implement, the less likely we may be to get it.
Knapf
Mon Jul 19, 2004 6:04 pm
#84
Straker -
What if the modules that broke first weren't the "functional" modules? Say, > 50% or so vit only things like motive systems or sensor packages (the components) would fail. Just about any DE (even a novice) can make most of these components rather easily, and it gives the novice DE's a viable market. I'm sure that some new DE's would be happy to camp in town grinding away and playing repair shop for some extra credits. This gives them a more valued place in the community, and something they can do while they wait for all of their experimentation points. As the droid became more and more abused, the functional modules would start breaking, which would possibly require the intervention of a higher level DE. At that point, it almost becomes easier to just sell them a new droid.
As for your worry about the implimentation of this, look at lightsabers. This kind of system is already in place there, it's more than likely coming for vehicles and space craft, so I'm pretty sure that the underlying mechanics are already there. The other benefit that this could eventually provide is the ability to upgrade or swap out droid components, which would be a "win" from the customer point of view I think.
Tying this to the "low power" state basically puts the decay directly in the hands of the user for non-combat droids. It will increase the demand for batteries (which is good for Artisans and upcoming engineers), and will allow the decay to be avoided by those who wish to "take good care" of their droids. By keeping the droid properly charged, this decay can be avoided. That in and of itself will help this "nerf" be more acceptable to the masses.
This was whatI was saying before. Sabers have this form of repair and decay and like stated in the post above as well JTL will have this with their systems too. I Think it would be great to have someone come into the shop and ask to re-armor their droid. or give it a better combat mod. Hell I am but for an upgrade system as well. So you sell one droid and they keep coming back for mods. Droids HAM in Dumber? I have a new mod right here for you. you could make a shop setup to just repair and upgrade droids.. I mean how many garages you know that MAKE cars? they just fix them. want a good decay system. let the droids combat mods wear out like a weapon. Same goes for the armor. and as you fix a droid other things decay as well. Think about telling your clients that you saw that one of the droids brains was needing replaced soon so you went and replaced it as well.. Damn it's got " Jiffiy Lube" Writen all over it..
just another walk in the park.
Peace.
TheRealTK421
Mon Jul 19, 2004 10:47 pm
#85
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Ohh I'm not saying it wouldn't be cool. I'm just saying that the Devs may balk at having to redo the entire way droids work.
That's just it. I'm not sure it would really need to be.
From the server-side, the droid is just 'disconnected'. The change to users would be more cosmetic. Basically, your droid is fine. It's just presented as borked and in need of repair.
Once that occurs, it's set back to how it should be. I don't see this actually being a giant change (but then...what do I know)?!? 
Note: I'm trying to find out all, I've asked and will press it as I can. There are other areas of serious, valid concern right now that are keeping this in the background though. I'll find out if this has legs (someday) ASAP.
/bow
Respectfully,
Straker_Atrella
Tue Jul 20, 2004 12:05 am
#86
That sounds pretty good TK.
First my thoughts on the Data and Storage module. If your droid is low power or disabled, you can open it, and take items out, but you can't put anything back in. Kind of like a factory output hopper.
I like the idea of replacing modules and stuff, well sorta, here are my 2 problems with it.
1. I think coding wise, that is a nightmare. Once the droid is made, I don't think it really has modules anymore, just abilities. Like Harvesting, Medical or whatever. Actually losing or adding those may be very hard to code.
2. While replacing modules and parts seems cool, it could create problems. For example, lets say a DE has 200 customers, this isn't unrealistic, some may have more. If droid modules start to break at different times, such as his storage today, 2 days later his med module. If you have 200 customers + doing this, it could create a problem. Sure other DE's could fill in, but what if they don't make as good modules?
Yes they could just buy a new droid I guess. Maybe.
I'm pretty busy when I log on, resources, factories stocking my vendor keeps me busy. Repairing droids I could probably do, but not always when it was convieniant for my customers. Not being able to get their module replaced could be frustrating.
While the module replacement seems very cool, I could see it causing problems.
Straker_Atrella
Tue Jul 20, 2004 1:28 am
#87
Cool TK, I know your on, it, but let me explain what I mean a little more. This is new trust me.
Your talking about modules breaking, and needing "replaced," yet how would these cases work?
Examples:
1. Somebody can't make a level 6 Item storage module, so they install 2 level 4's. Currently all the game in whatever fashion needs to know is that the magic number to provide 10 item storage is hit.
Now a storage module breaks.... So what then? Does the storage get cut in half? If only one module breaks as suggested, then the game would need to remember what each modules value was before.
2. Somebody buys a Harvesting droid with 6 Harvesting modules, it's not top of the line and only has a +100 Rating. Now1, or even 2 modules stop working. Thegame would need to "know" what that modules Harvesting rating wasthen subtract it. Then what happens when they come to somebody who makes better Harvesting modules, and want one put in? The level 15 module is replaced with a 17. The numbers get added back up.
3. Droid Armor, it's pretty common to use 2 level 4's on many droids. So when one of them breaks, does the armor drop down to 10%?
Those are just 3 examples of what I mean. Currently, I don't think the game keeps any track of what each modules rating was. All it cares at the end stages is that the Droid has a +107 Rating, it doesn't care nor know if that came from 5 modules or 6, which is possible.
So at least to me, it does seem like you would have tochange how the gamekeeps track of Modules and Droid values.
Solutions:
1. The game could just divide whatever value, like +107 by how many modules are installed, not caring how that value was derived. The downside is that the game would still need to know how many modules of that type is installed.
Also, I'm no mathmatician, but couldn't this possibly lead to Droids getting better and better over time? You know how the game adds modules together and you get a number higher then you thought from decimals. Now would it be possible that due ot this rounding, if 1 mod was replaced, the other may get better from rounding?
2. Make it so FUNCTIONS not modules stop working, for example, Armor, Harvesting, Medical, or Storage. This does fix the whole module problem, and actually may encourage people to buy a new droid, or they can have it repaired.
Do you understand what I mean?
IceTigger
Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:00 am
#88
I definitely like this Low Power decay model. Diligent players are reward for keeping an eye on the power, while sloppy players are stuck having to replace something, maybe the entire droid. For visibility, I would recommend adding a low power indicator to the droids status while grouped. Maybe an icon shaped like a battery. That way, anyone in the group that has a power droid can charge the droid up.
Having malfunctions increasing in frequency as the droids vitality drops also is a nice idea. Maybe one minute after call, and every vitality decrease, the dice are rolled and if the droid malfunctions the owner gets a message. To use any functionality after a malfunction (even storage), the droid must be at least stored and re-called. Add a visible display such as sparks and smoke coming out of the droid so that any friendly DE can come along and do some repair (ah, an actual use for those restorations kits). The visible display also would give the owner a clue that maybe they should do something about it.
Not sure on replacement parts. Good in idea, but it does seem complex to implement. Also, unless there is a sufficient number of DE’s running around, simply finding a DE could take many hours of play time.
MachineZed
Tue Jul 20, 2004 10:11 am
#89
Just had another thought (twice this week/month I am done),
My problem with the Modules/Components breaking, I still get emails from customers saying I sold them a broken droid, ie they do not know how to use them, even thoughI mail them the instructions. Usually they reply backfrom theinstructions. I wish they would read them.
I would hate to charge a Customer, usually they are upset. Now I am going to charge them for replacing a part, they don't know how to use. But I would hate it more to replace parts without charging them. I usually give a case of droid paint kits, batteries, and rapair kits to customers, when I hand deliver a droid.
Knapf
Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:39 pm
#90
MachineZed wrote:
Just had another thought (twice this week/month I am done),
My problem with the Modules/Components breaking, I still get emails from customers saying I sold them a broken droid, ie they do not know how to use them, even thoughI mail them the instructions. Usually they reply backfrom theinstructions. I wish they would read them.
I would hate to charge a Customer, usually they are upset. Now I am going to charge them for replacing a part, they don't know how to use. But I would hate it more to replace parts without charging them. I usually give a case of droid paint kits, batteries, and rapair kits to customers, when I hand deliver a droid.
This is a good point. I can see where this would make both systemsa really pain in the chops to DEs But more so with mods as the Whole droid is not broken but just some part they don't use offen. But as it was stated in one of the posts Straker pointed out thatthis client could fall into the % that don't know/care about a droid. Someone who uses droids offen IE a doctor would tend to try to understand the use of a droid better. Thus take care of it better. I would say for a mod decay system to work it would need to show like a mini Ham bar like that of a bike and show what is decaying and what is not. so there is no surprise that the mod needs replacing. And stated what is being lowered as it happens. IE prompt that states the power/uses of a mod going down. Say a storage mod that can only hold 9 things one week and 7 things the week after that. Or a Med mod that goes down 10 points for every level of decay. thinks like that, and a DE could Do an Image Design on it like a person ,where they could view and change items on droids with out having to give the droid to a de Freeing up spaces for a DE to have his/her own droids to show off.
just more fun with clay.
TheRealTK421
Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:57 pm
#91
Item module decay will be tough. We can't (and shouldn't) grief players by keeping them from their stuff.
Not sure yet what the right answer is on that.
/bow
Respectfully,
Not sure yet what the right answer is on that.
/bow
Respectfully,