Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Am I, the Only One, that still Wants Combat Droids ?
BoberFett wrote:
What does being a DE have to do with it? What special priveleges does a DE get? None apparently, since the devs don't seem to be chomping at the bit to give DEs high level combat droids. You may not be concerned about balance, but they certainly are. If the reason to give DEs combat droids that nobody else could use was so they'd be safe on harvester runs, then they'd have to give every crafter these combat droids, as they're no less safe than DEs while they're making their own harvester runs.
Also, if your idea of fun consists of killing things, why on earthdid you take up a crafting profession?
The original plan, as I recall, was exactly to give combat droid usage to DE's, but the forum reaction was very negative since most thought of themselves as crafters. Those posters wanted to *sell* droids, and didn't much care whether they could use them.
I, of course, agree that they should give every crafter (Merchant's too, but not medical profs or smugglers) these combat droids. The reason you mention is one, but in particular this is a balanced way to offer a good market for lots of these droids. It actually makes sense that some technical hardware knowledge might be required to use the most powerfull droids, knowledge you would pick up in any elite crafting profession.
Why shouldn't killing things be fun, even if you chose crafting? Much of the game requires it from theme parks and quests to safely operating camped harvesters and leaving you house some days. Certainly not being able to atwould limit *my* fun.
If you really prefer playing as a wimp pacifist, there will be nothing requiring you to call a combat droid. You can still be killed by that dwarf nuna if *that* is your idea of fun.
Haruspex77 wrote:
The original plan, as I recall, was exactly to give combat droid usage to DE's, but the forum reaction was very negative since most thought of themselves as crafters. Those posters wanted to *sell* droids, and didn't much care whether they could use them.
I, of course, agree that they should give every crafter (Merchant's too, but not medical profs or smugglers) these combat droids. The reason you mention is one, but in particular this is a balanced way to offer a good market for lots of these droids. It actually makes sense that some technical hardware knowledge might be required to use the most powerfull droids, knowledge you would pick up in any elite crafting profession.
Why shouldn't killing things be fun, even if you chose crafting? Much of the game requires it from theme parks and quests to safely operating camped harvesters and leaving you house some days. Certainly not being able to atwould limit *my* fun.
If you really prefer playing as a wimp pacifist, there will be nothing requiring you to call a combat droid. You can still be killed by that dwarf nuna if *that* is your idea of fun.
Jenden wrote:
This argument doesn't hold up when you factor in the idea that you can be you're favorite crafting profession without giving up much in the way of combat skills as it is. You can be a master DE, Master (insert favorite non-hybrid combat profession here), and still have skill points left to get some skills in any of the other basic professions or some skills in an elite profession. Thats the whole point of this profession system, if you want combat skills you can have them, if you want crafting skills you can have them, if you want some of both you can have some of both.
You say there is nothing requiring us to call our combat droid, but just the fact that we can means some of the crafting abilities will get stripped away or the world will be that much more difficult, for a net result of no combat change (the system is already balanced more or less, adding to one side means you have to add or subtract from the other). And while the balance in the system may need some work, you don't fix it by throwing it even more out of balance.
Hmm, you take a narrow view of crafting, or you don't understand how good combat skills can get. To be sure, it is possible to do as you say, but that is neither a maxed crafter nor a maxed combat type.
If you master two elite crafting professions, you can only afford one combatcolumn (and no support, Scout, or Medic to go with it). True, you can survive a lot of low level agressives that way, if you choose to distribute your skillpoints that way instead of filling out some crafting gaps. But if you want to deal with advanced planets well, you are going to have to put a lot of effort into strategy.
The problem with Creature Handlersis that they can afford to be a Master CH *and* Master an elite combat profession, or have good skills in a couple combat professions and still have high level pets. The pets have been nerfed down now to keep them from being completly dominant, and the levels spread around to keep from creating a dominant dabbler.
The crafter vs combat balance is totally out of whack in favor of the combat types now. A pure crafter is shut out from a lot of content (quests, theme parks, GCW, etc.), but a combat type can become an effective trader and miner and compete as well in the commercial realm as any crafter with hardly any cost in skillpoints (as little as15 for Novice Artisan to survey, or 9 more for a vendor). Since no-drop crafted items don't exist, there is nothing in the game he cannot have. There is certainly no need to nerf crafting if crafters got a new kind of combat ability.
Adding combat skills to crafters doesn't require that the world be harder so long as those skills are at least proportional to the skillpoint cost. That will keep them from being added to other combat skills to create new dominant templates. Combat balance does require that a lot of skillpoints in elite positions be required for very high level droids. My thinking now is that you might have to master 2 of them, and one be DE, to have the very best. That would allow for some very powerfull Droids indeed, andthe absolute best as a trophy for the Master DE+other elite crafter. Because of the skillpoint cost, it(or they)could be much better than what a MCH could call.
Haruspex77 wrote:
If you master two elite crafting professions, you can only afford one combatcolumn (and no support, Scout, or Medic to go with it). True, you can survive a lot of low level agressives that way, if you choose to distribute your skillpoints that way instead of filling out some crafting gaps. But if you want to deal with advanced planets well, you are going to have to put a lot of effort into strategy.
Bah, kollos got to it before me, still some good points in this one too though.
Haruspex77 wrote:
Hmm, you take a narrow view of crafting, or you don't understand how good combat skills can get. To be sure, it is possible to do as you say, but that is neither a maxed crafter nor a maxed combat type.
You shouldn't be able to be a maxed out crafter and a maxed out combat type at the same time. If you could be, then why have professions and skillpoints at all?
If you master two elite crafting professions, you can only afford one combatcolumn (and no support, Scout, or Medic to go with it). True, you can survive a lot of low level agressives that way, if you choose to distribute your skillpoints that way instead of filling out some crafting gaps. But if you want to deal with advanced planets well, you are going to have to put a lot of effort into strategy.
Why shouldn't you have to invest some skill points in combat in order to deal with advanced planets well?
The problem with Creature Handlersis that they can afford to be a Master CH *and* Master an elite combat profession, or have good skills in a couple combat professions and still have high level pets. The pets have been nerfed down now to keep them from being completly dominant, and the levels spread around to keep from creating a dominant dabbler.
Not sure what this has to do with droid engineers....
The crafter vs combat balance is totally out of whack in favor of the combat types now. A pure crafter is shut out from a lot of content (quests, theme parks, GCW, etc.), but a combat type can become an effective trader and miner and compete as well in the commercial realm as any crafter with hardly any cost in skillpoints (as little as15 for Novice Artisan to survey, or 9 more for a vendor). Since no-drop crafted items don't exist, there is nothing in the game he cannot have. There is certainly no need to nerf crafting if crafters got a new kind of combat ability.
Yes, they can sell resources, but so can everyone else, this has nothing to do with crafting. A pure combatant can't make high quality weapons, armor, droids, food, etc. If they want to do any of these things they have to invest some skill points in a crafting profession. Similarly, if crafters want to do any combat they have to invest some skill points in a combat profession.
Adding combat skills to crafters doesn't require that the world be harder so long as those skills are at least proportional to the skillpoint cost.
Are you talking about adding more skill point costs? As it is you can't add any combat abilities for the skill points we already spend, as the compensation for these is in crafting skills (unless you take away some of our crafting skills, as I mentioned before).
That will keep them from being added to other combat skills to create new dominant templates.
Which is one of the reasons they are not going with a cert system. You cannot give already established professions more combat power without imbalancing the system. If any combat droids > CL10 are put in the game they will need a new profession.
Combat balance does require that a lot of skillpoints in elite positions be required for very high level droids. My thinking now is that you might have to master 2 of them, and one be DE, to have the very best. That would allow for some very powerfull Droids indeed, andthe absolute best as a trophy for the Master DE+other elite crafter. Because of the skillpoint cost, it(or they)could be much better than what a MCH could call.
Let me make sure I've got this right... you get all the skills you'd normally get for each profession, then on top of that you would get free, additional combat skills (roughly equivalent to the 107 skillpoints or whatever it is for master CH)... for no cost. how is this balanced?
Message Edited by Jenden on 02-26-2004 03:29 PM
Jenden wrote:
You shouldn't be able to be a maxed out crafter and a maxed out combat type at the same time. If you could be, then why have professions and skillpoints at all?
You and Gribnitz are working off the same assumptions, which gives me the feeling that neither of you have played this catagory of game much before. Clearly you have never seen the end game.
The answer to your question is: So that end-game players will be different and need each other. After you have been in a game for a few years you will (should?) be playing the end-game. Advancement can only go so far between expansions. Power players will reach the end-game very quickly, others may take longer but everyone gets there eventually.
Right now, the end game for acrafter characteris one that cannot go most places or do most things. The character becomes anessentially useless alternate who is only brought out when the player wants to make something (or maybe some money) on that server. Even that isn't necessary, as there is no possession that you have to make for yourself and cannot buy (called no-drop in other games) or any limitation that keeps you from making as much money as a crafter.
So the way the game is now, in the long run everyone has to drop their crafting skills on their main character. Sure, the old main may be left intact, but that isn't the character that you will use to join your friends or have fun.Folks started dropping crafting, because they had gone as far as they could go, within a month after release. The holocrons brought some new people in, and others back, but eventually only newbies will have crafters as their main.
My suggestions would make crafters viable endgame maincharacters. You can keep your shop, but stillbea welcome additionon a Krate hunt with your friends when you want, and get all the badges.
I think you are making assumptions. I have probably played a lot more MMPORG's than you have experienced.It sounds as if you were stuck in AC for the last 2 years by your "no drop" statement (like that makes you an expert).
This is a MMPORG, there isn't an "end game". You sound as if your playing DOOM and beating the final boss or something. The purpose of a MMPORG is to make aplayer community reliant on others for equipment, companionship, or for adventures where one person can't equalmany working together. You want to do it all in one package. SWG has one character slot per server. You can't have your enchanter making you all your jewelry, an armorsmith making your armor and a weaponsmith making your uber blaster all on one account on the same server.
If you prefer combat, make a rifleman. If you want droids and a shop, make a DE. If you want both, take acombat skill and drop your other elite crafting skill and do it !!
To all these people clamoring for high level combat droids to add into the DE line, I would like to know what thier skill makeup is. You have plenty of points to be both a DE and a combat class. What is holding you back ??? Your Master Weaponsmith tag ??
As a side note, I have MDE, MA, Novice Pistoleer, Novice Scout andNovice Medic as skills and have some points left over. I can run out to my harvesters just fine and hold my own. I don't expect to solo a Rancor, or Grauls or OWN JOO in PVP. Why???? Because I am MDE, MA, Novice Pistoleer, Novice Scout and Novice Medic. If I wanted to solo a Rancor I would drop the Scout and Medic and go full bore up Pistoleer and probably still get smeared. How much do you think you should be able to do in the game ??
Message Edited by Gribnitz on 02-26-2004 07:45 PM
Haruspex77 wrote:
You and Gribnitz are working off the same assumptions, which gives me the feeling that neither of you have played this catagory of game much before. Clearly you have never seen the end game.
The answer to your question is: So that end-game players will be different and need each other. After you have been in a game for a few years you will (should?) be playing the end-game. Advancement can only go so far between expansions. Power players will reach the end-game very quickly, others may take longer but everyone gets there eventually.
Right now, the end game for acrafter characteris one that cannot go most places or do most things. The character becomes anessentially useless alternate who is only brought out when the player wants to make something (or maybe some money) on that server. Even that isn't necessary, as there is no possession that you have to make for yourself and cannot buy (called no-drop in other games) or any limitation that keeps you from making as much money as a crafter.
So the way the game is now, in the long run everyone has to drop their crafting skills on their main character. Sure, the old main may be left intact, but that isn't the character that you will use to join your friends or have fun.Folks started dropping crafting, because they had gone as far as they could go, within a month after release. The holocrons brought some new people in, and others back, but eventually only newbies will have crafters as their main.
My suggestions would make crafters viable endgame maincharacters. You can keep your shop, but stillbea welcome additionon a Krate hunt with your friends when you want, and get all the badges.
Gribnitz wrote:
I think you are making assumptions. I have probably played a lot more MMPORG's than you have experienced.It sounds as if you were stuck in AC for the last 2 years by your "no drop" statement (like that makes you an expert).
This is a MMPORG, there isn't an "end game". You sound as if your playing DOOM and beating the final boss or something. The purpose of a MMPORG is to make aplayer community reliant on others for equipment, companionship, or for adventures where one person can't equalmany working together. You want to do it all in one package. SWG has one character slot per server. You can't have your enchanter making you all your jewelry, an armorsmith making your armor and a weaponsmith making your uber blaster all on one account on the same server.
(snip)
I hate that acronym, and think they should all be called Muds, but thats an argument from the last decade.
Playing many games isn't the issue, it is actually reaching significant community member status in one, and if Boberfett thinks that the end game is mystical, it is clear he hasn't been there. In the long run, there will be a community of people who have been around a long time, andhave notimesink/experience limitations on what their character currently is. What would your ideal character look like? Eventually that is what it will be (if you don't move on first), then what will you choose to do?
Perhaps there are people who will be happy in the long run with a crafting character. Perhaps one that took some time off, dropped those skills, got all his badges and really rare drops, and came back to his shop. But I think that there should be few limitations on where an ideal character can go, and what activities he can join.
Perhaps, too, SOE is focused on the idea of selling more accounts since the rule isn't really "one character slot per server," but rather one per account. The rich and capable crafting character isn't likely to just be dropped when it gets boring, it is too good a source of revenue and high level goods. But the way things are set up now, it will have to be left behind to go explore the newest content.
Boberfett asked "If crafters could be powerful combatants in addition to their innate crafting abilities, then why would anybody be a combat character?" Because a full group of droid wielding characters isn't going to start to be competitive with a balanced group of healers, tanks and damage dealers of various kinds. That's why there are so many combat types. Crafters with droids are never going to dominate, but I would like them to be welcome in high end groups. A Novice Pistoleer isn't going to bewelcome for long.
If you guys insist on being left out of combat, I fear that SOE will go along with you. My crafting character may go back to being a DE, which he dropped at the Probot nerf when the only profitable product died, if there is ever a meaningfull profession here, but he will be played less and less. He is BTW a Merchant/ Arch (MA too) with Novice Pistoleerwith only enough Scout to recall his vehicle when it poofs (that will go with Pub 7 for crafting skills). But he is such a drag on the group that the only reason he is invited along is because he is the sugardaddy gift giver.
BoberFett wrote:
So a novice pistoleer is a drag on the group and unwanted, but every high level combat group will clamor for a DE with a combat droid? Your arguments don't even make sense.
A Novice Pistoleer doesn't contributemuch damage per second and has no useful defenses against high level mobs. Recently (and perhaps again today with some bugs fixed) a high level Creature Handler is in high demand to provide a tank that won't die quickly when attacked by a high level mob even though personally he has no more capabilities, your DE might be in the same position.
Depending on how the droids get implemented, they could be tanks to absorb damage or damage dealers (I prefer the latter) that do a lot to quickly bring down large enemies. In either case, given sufficient power,the ones owned by amultiplemaster crafterwould have a role that would be useful against Lv 60+ mobs or in PvP, while a Novice Pistoleer doesn't.
I admit, that I have seen some comments that claim even low level Pistoleers can be good contributers, but I havn't seen that work myself and don't know how to do it,though I keep trying. I suspect that the strategy really depends on some skills I don't have in the boxes I can afford. At least the situation doesn't seem to be as bad as some other games where having a lowbie along can get the whole group killed by generating agro. The NP just absorbs some exp and contributes to more downtime.
Doesn't this conflict with your previous concern that everyone would want to be a crafter if they could fight as well as craft? While I don't see crafters being the most effective combat characters even at the highest levels, they should be able to group with others who have comparable total experience to good effect. Right nowa mostly pure craftercan only group with characters a few weeks old, or other crafters, and still feel like a meaningful part of the group. Even a split template with a single combat mastery is pretty marginal in a high end group or PvP situation, though the ability to afford goodbuffs, arms, and armour helps.
I would like to see droids better than pets for some situations. I think a great role would be a high attack guard that could pick off low end adds without distracting the group from the main target. That would require some programming differences, like giving priority to guard duty even when told to attack, but reverting to the declared target afterwards. A low HAM, high DPS droid concept should scale nicely from a DZ70 to keep kreetles off your back to a droidika that would be likely to kill anything that didn't incap you with the first hit or two.
That kind of droid would let a solo crafter in suitable armour and buffs largelyignore what was around the harvesters and let the droidika kill it before it did much damage. Attacking with a droid wouldn't give any experience.A fairly low HAM for its level would keep it from being used as a tank, but it would be a good defensive weapon, a way to turn a herd into meat or hide quickly, and contribute to a group goal in PvP or PvE combat.
Parlez vous Anglais? Sprechen sie Englisch? Comprende Ingles?
If you want to fight, become a combat character. You have enough points to master an elite combat profession and an elite crafting profession. If you choose to master two or moreelite crafting professions, that's your choice andyou choose to forgo combat.
This is not EQ where the only thing to do is kill everything in sight. It's not that hard to understand. But you do have to make choices. You don't get to be everything to everyone.
As short-sighted as the developers of this game seem to be at times, I'm glad they're at the helm and not someone like you.