Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Droid Certs? NO! Make a Pet Skill Tree Never Seen before, something new.
More thoughts:
-It would be cool to give DE bonuses so they can maybe have a master droid or at least give there droids more skill points. Other players droids would have less skill points so they would have to choose and customize their droid to there play style, they would not be able to have a master droid.
-Memory wipes so droids drop to novice level if traded by non DE, limited wipes if DE sells or trades the dorid to you.
-You could have a 25-50 point skill point cost in order to use droids that is not tied to any profession.
-The Empire might attempt to confiscate illegal combat droids
-Droids take a lot of time and effort to upgrade, using them will slow down the palyers progression because they will be sucking up your Xp
-Droids have personallity
-Make combat droids the ying to the faction pet yang, DROIDS can not fight NPC's only animals.
I think these ideas might be too much for the devs, but if fleshed out I think it would be a great fun way to bringmore Starwars feel to the game, improve the DE profession, and give everyone access to droids the way it should be with out unbalancing the game.
This idea is brilliant. I particularly like the idea of a memory wipe as a way of preventing anyone getting too powerful with a master trained droid, and the idea of Using your own XP and the droids own skillpoints to represent you training up the Droid.
Let us hope TH re-reads this idea and give it the credit it's due as the way forward.
It is clear that NO ONE wants a DH tree... a DH tree with a skill point cost of 3 or 4 points i think everyone could live with but 63 points or so... na not gonna happen... I made a previous post on the micro-DH profession earlier last week
Now this idea... it CANNOT be an extension of the DE tree! it must be a basic skill tree... added like politician was... and it can't cost 60+ points for us to use... but if it was skillpoint free... only exp was required... now that might work.
Yes I agree Absoultly, By George I think He has Got IT!
SinjenRandall wrote:
If I am reading this right, I think it is an awesome idea. This also makes droids more "Star Warsy", gives an organic method for gating, and still keeps everyone in the loop.
This means that instead of trying to fit something into the current rule system, the rules have to change a bit. That is perfectly fine by me. With this system, we can havedroids thatare basically real NPC's, rather than profession tools. The droid progresses seperately, although not completely independant, of the owner.
So as a master swordsman, I buy a "new" droid from a DE (er... make one). As I go out and fight, my droid is being trained. I spend points that the droid earns on learning new "droid" skills. After a time, the droid "levels up" and is much, much better than the level 10 pet he started out to be.
But I even like the notion that you have to spend something for the droid to level. How about XP? Lets use me as an example again. I am already a master swordsman, and my combat XP and sword XP is maxxed out. For me, experience gain does me no good at all. Well, I then start purchasing skills for my droid. The droid is still limited,and points are legitimately spent on the droid's skills. Instead of leveling myself up, I am leveling up the droid. It gives me something that is almost even akin to content. End-game kind of stuff.
Instead of making droids mindless tools, you would then have a personal investment in a droid.It becomes more useful as the player progresses. When I show off my powerful droid, it commands some respect. Even our utility droids could benefit from this idea. The hard caps can be expanded by experience.
Memory wipes make perfect sense. Maybe also a restraining bolt that actually costs the amount of experience to purchase as the droid has built up. So if you can "afford" the restraining bolt, you can avoid a memory wipe. I know this isn't simple, so it can probably be tossed. But it makes for some interesting droid play.
I wouldn't be quick to make them die easily, either. Make them require maintainence, and make them require something from the DE to keep them fit and healthy. We talked about a city building for DE's once, how about an Oil Bath that is a money sink. Let them grow and have personality. Even if it is mostly made-up. Almost the opposite of decay. They decay without attention, but we have several ways of making them great investments.
The more I think about it, the more I love it.
- Droid as NPC
- Droid gains skills with owner
- Droid isn't disposable
- Devs can put money sinks in place that will be a good trade-off for investment (less whining)
- No insta-uberdroids - still will have "pretty uber" droids, but not off the assembly line
- No trading of insta-uber droids
- 4 players does not necessarily = 8 players, unless droids are very old and a lot of experience has been spent on them. Then, why not?
Great start on an idea, Barfalomue.
WOW
I mean Thunderheart totally misunderstood what the original poster said, but WOW. THATS a cool idea. And would be different from creatures, and be VERY droid like.
Giving droids to any profession, and that person training up the droid in his skills to help him.
And data modules could be used for skill points!
and armour modules could increase resistance while reducing speed!
And skill points can be used to buy module levels! so having med1-6 means something!
WOW
Though upgrading and all sounds very cool, its something that is totally not in game, and undoubtably take a LOT of code. but still, this would be great. You would have to earn your droid, so everyone could have them.
Creature Pets are handed to you with abilities
Droid Pets are made by you to help you.
It makes perfect sense.
Virtanis wrote:
Thunderheart wrote:
How do you guys feel about something like this?
Thunderheart, Anything but a DH class.... please. Options are out there, ideas have been made and said. Please, please make every effort to avert a DH profession!
Im reading and gathering all of the ideas put forth and presenting them to the devs. Keep in mind that a bunch of the proposals put forth the idea of a "mini profession" or adding a droid handling tree to the DE profession which is basically what's on the table.
The important thing to remember is that any proposal has to include the following design criteria if they are going to be considered by the devs:
- Any player can handle any pet or droid as long as its CL 10 or below.
- Any pet/droid above level 10 has to have a significant skill point/experience point expenditure.
- Reference CH's and the fact they have to spend points for an entire profession to get those benefits.
- Factions pets (which could be some droids) will be added at a later date.
Keep proposing good ideas and Drashk and I will keep looking for things that the devs and community can agree on.
Check out my idea on pg 13...
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=droid_engineer&message.id=53229&page=13
/deepbow TH
TH, I think you're still missing the idea of this thread.
It is NOT proposing a profession which would include the ability to use both droids and creatures (although that's how i read it at first too). Such an idea would be incredibly imbalancing, since the same skill point use now would also allow players who had formerly been CH's to also have the max level droids as well, totally destroying the balancing act that was just finished with the CH profession. This is not the idea here.
The idea of this post is to have your droid act much like your player. It will start out with no skills (or at least very meager ones) and must level itself. Although not directly, I believe this idea satisfies thecondition you set forth in another thread, at least on a philosophical level.
1. Skill point cost
You said that players needed to spend skill points to get the advantages of droids, to prevent imbalancing. By this system, all droids will be essentially the same (and fairly worthless) when first purchased, so freshly crafted droids will not be a big combat help. ALL players will be able to have the same combat droids, and must work at it for that droid to be of any real help in battle (see xp use, to follow).
The beauty behind this idea is that it still holds true to the skill system, and allows players to customize the abilities of their droids, in a way they want (in the same way they do with their characters), and such personal customization is one of the biggest assets that SWG offers. The droid itself would have a skill system, and when the droid had gained enough xp, it could be brought to a DE for "upgrades." Based on the skills you decide you want your droid to pursue, this could be in the form of better weaponry, armor, or auxilliary skills (i.e. crafting, medicine...). Again, since this offers the players the option of how to progress the droid, since all players are given the same options, and since there will be a finite amount of skills that a certain droid can learn, this will take care of balancing. By its very nature, something cannot be "imbalancing" if it is equally available to all players.
It could be argued that new players will be disadvantaged by this system, since they will unable to buy expensive droids in the beginning. However, this is analogous to the way in which the new player is unable to buy the best gun, or sword, and has to work to obtain it.
2. XP cost
You also said that using progressively better droids should cost a significant amount of xp. The idea of this post would say that the player would have to use the droid in combat for it to increase. While this isn't actually the player's experience being used, it still requires a significant amount of time to level the droid, which is the idea behind experience.
3. DL 10 or lower for everyone
As for your point about all players only being able to use DL 10 or lower, I see no real reason behind this, other than to make it analogous to the CH profession, which the community has clearly said it doesn't want. There has been no real argument that I've seen as to how allowing every single player to use the same droids, given enough time and effort, would be imbalancing.
You did point out that this would necessarily make combat easier for everyone, and you are correct in that. I would argue, however, that this is the entire point behind combat droids. According to continuity (or just plain logic)combat droids were created for exactly that reason...easing the daily dangers that people faced. If this means that combat would need to be scaled a bit across the board, so that droids would not make all PvE too easy, well then I guess it's a good thing that the combat revamp is starting now too.
Implementation and possible cross-profession possibilities:
By the ideas floated around in this thread it seems the droids would work something like this: The DE would make a droid, at its basic level. Each droid would have a skill-set, that they could progress through. I would imagine that there could be at least a couple "professions" for the droid, that could be programmed into it by the DE for a certain number of "droid skill pts." These may include, for simplicity, a combat profession, and a non-combat profession. As the droid gained xp by being used in battle, it would qualify for new skills. After gaining a new skill, the owner could bring thedroid to the DE to recieve "upgrades." For the combat droid, these could include new weapons and armor, and for the non-combat droid they could include things like a better medical rating, or crafting assembly mods.
When I saw this idea, the first thing i thought of would be the great opportunity for the crafting professions to work together to make the very best droids. I haven't floated this by the DE's though, so I'm not sure what they'd think of it. The weapons andarmor, for example, could be farmed out to the respective professions, but would still require the DE to actually preform the upgrades. Many of the upgrades though, such as skill enhancers or typically droid items like storage modules, should still be strictly limited to the DE profession, since, after all, they are theengineers who design the droids.
It was also mentioned that there should be a "memory wipe" that would be necessary for a droid to be transferred to another player. This would allow the same type of commerce that goes on with pets, but would not allow brand new players, who have spent none of the time or xp necessary to level up a droid, to have instant access to the higher-end content.
Since I haven't seen any arguments against this idea, I'm inclined to be very impressed with it. Whether it goes through or not, and whether it is actually practical from a development perspective, we should at least all be clear about what is being proposed. Also, if it is not possible, please don't just tell us that, explain why, so we can have a discussion, since that is what the whole idea of bringing ideas to the community was supposed to be about.
Also, much of this post was extrapolation on what the previous posters have said, so everyone, feel free to edit and/or critique where I may have gotten things wrong.
Furthermore, this idea would obviously require massive development time, and I think the community understands this. I for one, would be willing to wait, if we could be assured that this plan would go forward, and from what i'm hearing, I think that most others would as well.
Let me summarize the following essayin bullet form for those with short attention spans. Do read the rest before slapping that reply button, though, please.
- Droids have skill points – spent on droid specific skill boxes.
- Players provide experience points – similar to elite profession requirements – to fill those skill boxes in.
- Droids become great investments in themselves, not throwaway disposables.
- Meet dev’s requirements!
Someone can correct me if I am seeing this differently than the original poster’s idea. But this is how I imagine this system working:
The droid has two different professions that it can embark on and eventually master. Novice Utility Droid, or Novice Combat Droid. The droid has skill trees that are essentially the same experience requirements as those of any elite profession’s requirements. The player spends experience points to gain more of the droid’s skill boxes, and progression provides significant, tangible benefits as it “levels up”.
The Utility Droid profession (again – the droid’s profession and skill boxes) requires the player to spend profession XP (that they themselves gain) to acquire more skill boxes. Medical XP, crafting XP, smuggling XP, or any non-combat XP can purchase these boxes, and the master box can be purchased with apprenticeship XP, just like elite professions do. Hard caps can then be expanded, or other uses unlocked as the droid's skill progresses.
The Combat Droid profession (for the droid – this is a player controlled NPC – think Knights of the Old Republic) requires the player to spend weapons and combat XP to purchase skill boxes that provide tangible offensive and defensive capabilities to the droid. Things like counterattack dodge, etc., along with HAM benefits or something of the like. Also could be tied to the level or types of armor / weapons the droid could be outfitted (upgraded) with.
These “Droid Professions” would be structured like the player’s professions are structured, in that there is a novice box, followed by four tiers leading to a master box.This would obviously take the same amount of time, if not longer, than gaining a master level for the player professions. (I would actually lean towards three tiers of weapons XP and one tier of combat XP, just like with elite combat professions) As a result, that droid at "Master Droid" contributes a significant amount to the team. This is an investment that could definitely be powerful.
This, I think, couldn’t be more Star Wars, for one thing. It also meets your requirements:
- Any player can handle any pet or droid as long as its CL 10 or below.
Easy. The droid starts at CL 10. No insta-uberness here. Without any further player contribution, the droid is, and stays at, CL 10.
- Any pet/droid above level 10 has to have a significant skill point/experience point expenditure.
Again, the requirement here is met. The player has to spend experience points at a significant rate in order to increase the skill levels of the droid. The only matter of contention that could possibly arise is that you are spending the droid’s skill points, but the player’s experience. I don’t see the problem here, when we are talking about droids as being sentient, living, although mechanical, entities. Think about it. You would have to essentially master your elite combat profession twice in order to gain a single "uber" droid.
- Reference CH's and the fact they have to spend points for an entire profession to get those benefits.
I will definitely reference, although I don’t think it has to be parallel by necessity. The CH spends points – XP and Skill points – to get an influx of creatures that are not limited. In other words, they have that profession and can get essentially unlimited “tools” from an endless supply in the wild. You get this one droid that you spend a considerable investment on, and it grows with you over time. If you want another droid, you have to go through and help your new droid master a droid profession [again]. That looks to me like the CH has the far better deal! Now I will note here that I believe that with this system droids should require maintenance of some kind, but not be disposable in any form. DE’s could repair or upgrade them as necessary. No permadeath please!
- Factions pets (which could be some droids) will be added at a later date.
Same rules apply. This makes things a bit more complicated because of Overt / Covert status and faction pets, but has the potential for enhancing the experience. A master Droid that is a faction pet? *drool*
Now maybe someone has a one-liner that invalidates this idea, but I am missing the "Big Flaw" TM.
TH,
In response to the new "droid handler tree added to DE" proposals. Please realize that this is something that that DE community has been hotly debating for months, and which we have finally come to somewhat of a concensus on. The reason things are so heated in the DE forum is that you are reopening a can of worms that has taken 2 months to close.
The basic concensus reached by DEs was that something like 65% (Drashk has several posts figuring these percentages) said they didn't want a DE handler tree, but wanted new combat droids to sell. Adding a handler tree to the DE profession is a REALLY bad idea for several reasons.
(1) It gives DEs nothing to sell. Since only DE can use the new droids, this does nothing for the vast majority of DEs that are BEGGING for new combat droids to sell.
(2) The handler tree encourages players to take up DE just to handle droids. Most DEs are VERY opposed to dabblers grinding DE by sending crappy, cheap grind bots into the market. Most DEs are also apprehensive about the pure effect on the droid market (especially considering that any DE can make his own droids, and every new de can ALSO sell to others).
(3) It is about as unstarwarsy as you can get. C3P0 and R2 didn't have joysticks jutting out of their back and a uber dood following them around controlling them. Droids have AI, and it takes experience to program and make them...not to say "attack" after they are already programmed.
I will also note that these considerations would ALSO apply to a droid handler profession (except for #2, where the "no new sales" would be replaced by "few new sales to the 5% or less of players who become DHs), which I think is one of the reason for so many "no's" in the polls.
After MONTHS of discussing this issue we all came back to having certifications in existing professions. I STILL think certs in all trees is the best solution.
Respectfully, I really think you are going the wrong way with getting community concensus. So far your response has been to say "Drashk's proposal gives a CL 15 droid to a novice and that is unreasonable." I wholeheartedly agree with that, and think you are being WAY to strict in the interpretation.
Why not start here: A person who masters 3 professions should get a cert for a CL20-CL25 droid; a person why masters only one elite profession should get no more than a CL15 droid; novices should be limited to CL10 or less. Now...take Drashk's proposal and rework the numbers from there. What you get is (1) a proposal that requires a substantial skill point investment to get good droids, and (2) DE sales and the ability to use new combat droids (along with other classes).
Why are we abandoning the compromise DEs have spent months reaching, only to push the plan that DEs fought about and strayed from to reach a compromise.