Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: OUCH! THAT HURT!
The type of situation you describe was an example of what has altered how they deal with the overall forum community.
A perfect example of this change is that they came to us with the Crafting Experimentation change that was in Publish 7 for one day.
They put it forth to gauge reaction and, when the community mostly said "No.", they removed it the day after P7 went Live.
I expect that larger issues will see this same kind of situation down the line, as the Devs are seeing the benefits of getting feedback from users via these types of 'sounding board' situations. Note: The Corrs. are often utilized in the same fashion.
As for "timely" feedback....the issue there becomes that some questions/items/issues simply have to be investigated and/or discussed at length. It simply takes time. Yes......it's no fun that it takes time. But it does.
Many people here have an expectation that working on this game is like saying "Go to moon. Get rock."
There's simply details that have to be worked out before they can be talked about (even in the 'open').
/shrug
/bow
Respectfully,
/bow
Sinnare wrote:
Tk do you have any idea HOW LONG this community has been waiting, BETA, before Sin was corro.
No...I'm sorry, I don't. I've been totally absent from theDE forum discussions in the last few months.
/sarcasm off
Please, Sinnare....I know you're frustrated...but don't try to tellme that I don't know how long the DEs have been waiting.
Your analagy of going to moon doesnt fly, well actually it does cause they go to the moon and get rocks and come back alot quicker then they have done anything with de. Sorry they have failed miserably and defending them puts you right there with them.
I'm sorry you feel that way, Sinnare. Do you not think that I do what I do for the good of all DEs?
What kind of wonderful things could come along frankly?
You'll find out pretty soon. And, I do personally see a few of the things as "wonderful".
They have taken away low lvl pets totally, Low lvl droids.
The CL13 combat droids will be gettnig adjusted (via changes to the combat modules) to make them more effective and attractive vis a vis BE creature pets. So, there will be more balance for this low- to mid-level combat droid market. (Note: No precise ETA but I believe this will be pushed with Publish 8 to TC.)
Seriously tell me one single time you ever see anyone using a droid or pet that isnt a ch in this game.
Uhhhh....well, I do (for one). I used my new Probot on Yavin just a couple of nights ago to crank out some damage while I solo'd some Unarmed XP.
[snip]
Yeh there are utility droids coming, a r2 with disko lights ARE YOU KIDDING ME. Who thought that gem up.
Maybe there's more coming than you think. Ever consider that?
And frankly your position as corospondent didnt come from your wonderful thought out posts in the beggining it came from the sucking up that was done after you said what you really felt back when your words actually meant somthing.
Actually, my position came from seeing a LOT of people step up and nominate me for a position that I didn't pine over. I felt like I could help to move us forward in a good way (on several fronts), so I accepted the job.
If you don't like how I've been doing things so far, please feel free to offer suggestions or comments either here or via PM.
Realize, however, that I only correspond to/with the Devs. I don't control our destiny (far from it).
For your own benefit quit this scam of a post you hold and save what respect people still have for you.
If the DEs really want me to step down, I will. To be honest, it's getting a bit tiring to try to bear our 'flag' when I've already lost the confidence of a lot of DEs that I respect. True, I'm not perfect (no one is)...but I know that I was once much more trusted than I used to be. It's pretty disheartening to feel like I want to help all DEs and then get berated over my best intentions and 'work'.
I guess I don't see why people think that I've changed to a degree that I would be making bad/stupid decisions in regard to simply corresponding. The Devs ultimately control what happens to us, despite the best info, proposals or arguments we might have with them on any given issue.
[snip]
Sorry for the rant but i respect your posts of the past, one of the few i truely thought had some meaning when they wrote, but recently its nothing more then a thunder pawn.
If you respected my intent/comments and opinions of the past, then I can only ask that you trust that I'm doing what I can to move us all forward.
You don't really think that I'd do all that I have (in the past posts, DENet / DEA stuff, etc.) and then try to somehow assassinate the DE profession when I'm finally in a position to do what I can to move us forward....
....................................do you?
Is that really what you're suggesting (cause it sure sounds like it)?
I know you're frustrated, Sinnare. No one knows what that feels like more than I.
Best Regards
Sinsins
Respectfully,
Hang in there man! I for one knew EXACTLY what would happen to ANYONE that took the thankless DE corespondant position. There's a FEW DE's that try to offer constructive criticism,while remaining positive and trying to achieve a better DE profession! The rest seem content to just rip on everything and everyone that tells them anything they don't wanna hear! Bottom line though is we have only ourselves to blame for our current position. The Dev's had a plan to get high-level droids into the game and we shamed them into retracting there ideas,and demanded more utility instead. Well alot of developement time went into plan A, and so now plan B had to be rushed in and here we are griping about what we didnt get! Please lets not ruin whats left of the profession with constant negativity! I am still a master DE, I enjoy the crafting aspect of it and DO wish that utility droids had a much bigger place in this game. Hopefully the info that TK has to keep quiet about till he has permission to release it, will give us something to be happy about! I fear however it that it doesn't really matter what they come up with for pub 8, it still wont be enough to turn the DE forums back into the positive, idea producing machine it once was! I also want high level combat droids in the game and will most likely follow that tree if it ever gets approved. On that note we have to understand that we will never get extra checkers and move on to make the DC/DH ours! Please people for the love of DE, stop shooting the messenger (TK) and focus on moving forward, not living in the past! Lets take a positive step in that direction, and I'm sure with TK's help we can bring the Dev's back to our forum and take care of business! I know that there are those that will say I'm just kissin DEV and Corespondant butt here, but I'm really just trying to wake up and smell the coffee! We have seen times where DEVS were very active on our forums and now they never come here and I wouldn't either if I were them! Lets get em back before its too late!!!!!
/end rant
respectfully , Peyote Master DE Flurry
TheRealTK421 wrote:
No...I'm sorry, I don't. I've been totally absent from theDE forum discussions in the last few months.
/sarcasm off
TK - you honestly would not know that from your posts. And, in fact, you have been largely absent - we had your whole "let's just be cheerful" phase, then for about two days you were actually TK again, and then poof! I haven't seen TK for weeks.
Please, Sinnare....I know you're frustrated...but don't try to tellme that I don't know how long the DEs have been waiting.
Then don't ask us to swallow all your PR laced spin. Deal? Don't act like this is the beginning of something, because for most it's the end.
You'll find out pretty soon. And, I do personally see a few of the things as "wonderful".
Couldn't go ONE post, could ya? Well, again - it's great for you - we know nothing. The community is getting utter silence on the issues.
Maybe there's more coming than you think. Ever consider that?
Again, glad you felt like rubbing our faces in it, TK. Yup, we know - you are the info king. That's wonderful for you.
Actually, my position came from seeing a LOT of people step up and nominate me for a position that I didn't pine over. I felt like I could help to move us forward in a good way (on several fronts), so I accepted the job.
Yes, they nominated TK. Not whomever you have become now. Someone to fight FOR us, not to placate us. Go and read the thread where people dicussed it - they nominated you because they thought you'd have the **self-edit** to stand up for us, not to play a patsy. If you will notice, I didn't vote in that thread - because I saw all this coming. I just let it be for a few weeks, but when you post things like you have done in this thread, TK, you can't expect to not be called on it. I mean, come ON...the things you have said I just imagine you typing and trying to keep a straight face at the same time. Either you are truly so blinded by the glory of your position you don't see it, or you don't care - I'm not sure which is worse, to be honest. In either case - it's becoming about your myopic view of things, in which you forget (as people have tried to tell you in this thread, yet you completely ignore) that the view from out here SUCKS. It doesn't matter how good your view is - ours SUCKS. How more blatantly can I put it, TK?
Remember when you posted TH's private comments to you (http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=droid_engineer&message.id=68017&highlight=bent+over+backwards#M68017) and preceeded to make fun of it, calling it a "whitewash" and continued throughout the thread? That was within a DAY of you getting nominated. This was a month ago, TK. How can anyone trust what you say, or not see the vast changes that make our heads spin? A few days before THAT you had your little "gnorts" episode, where your opinion was reversed...again. And before that...need we go on?
If you don't like how I've been doing things so far, please feel free to offer suggestions or comments either here or via PM.
It's really easy TK : step 1, drop the attitude. Step 2 - listen to players and express our concerns without degrading them or offering your sunny side view of things constantly (which have little relevance to us as working DE's), and step 3 stop being a spin doctor for every bit of information. It's gotten so that reading your posts remind me of thatcheerleader in Grease who runs around getting yearbook signatures - the things you say are so way out there that it is nearly impossible to take you seriously at this point.
Realize, however, that I only correspond to/with the Devs. I don't control our destiny (far from it).
No, but you control what you say - and when we have you out here pooh-poohing our concerns (like on the chassis issue), how can we expect that our true concerns are being represented? How can we trust in you as a correspondent if we can't even get you to get past your myopic view and see what it looks like from out here. The view from out here SUCKS, remember? That's what people are trying to tell you.
If the DEs really want me to step down, I will. To be honest, it's getting a bit tiring to try to bear our 'flag' when I've already lost the confidence of a lot of DEs that I respect. True, I'm not perfect (no one is)...but I know that I was once much more trusted than I used to be. It's pretty disheartening to feel like I want to help all DEs and then get berated over my best intentions and 'work'.
Well, TK, you began to loose my trust when you got a PM from a little gnort (very simmilar to several that I recieved) and flip-flopped because a Dev gave you some attention. We have seen the exact same situation here - only increased tenfold.The attitude you present has flip-flopped until now, when it finally has flopped - andI don't know how you can read what you write and not see it. You can give us all the garbage about "oh, i know better now! it changed me!", but we can see the seeds of this change and watch them grow - and it ain't new "information" that changed it, it's attention - it started immediately.
I guess I don't see why people think that I've changed to a degree that I would be making bad/stupid decisions in regard to simply corresponding. The Devs ultimately control what happens to us, despite the best info, proposals or arguments we might have with them on any given issue.
Because EVERY SINGLE POST you make is tinged with Dev-love, TK.
You are faulted for the attitude you present to us. Earlier in this thread you said "I don't want people to think there is silence..." well, DUH, TK - I'm sorry to be so blunt - but it must be nice to live on your correspondent planet, but for the rest of us, it's horrible silence.
And we have you every day telling us, "Oh, I know - it's gonna be cool!" - do you not see how infinitly frigging aggriviating that is?
Really TK, you can play the victim all you want, but reading through your posts anyone who has 1/2 a brain can see it.
It's a shame that you are so blinded you cannot.
AO
Message Edited by AudioOrgana on 04-11-2004 12:27 PM
Glantor wrote:
What do you think?
I agree with much of what you wrote (though not all).
There are two seperate issues here which are being confused : 1) the utter silence from the Dev team regarding the future of droid engineering (which was supposed to be now) and 2) the attitude TK presents in threads like this where he denies the fact that we are getting zero information, the constant "I know but you don't" crap, and the way in which TK has replied to many concerns with smiley happy "But we are getting droid power meters!".
I wouldn't want the job, because the change has to happen internally with the Devs - we have NOTHING to do with it externally, which is again something TK doesn't quite seem to get because he thinks the devs are justified in not talking to us because we are a "snake pit". Well, read what I said above. 1+1=2. This ain't rocket science.
TK has no power over this, but he does have power over how he posts. Some people say that we are blaming the messenger for the bad news/lack of news - that's not true. However, TK has signifigantly added to the frustration level as many people have outlined in this thread which has just added salt to many wounds.
AO
Message Edited by AudioOrgana on 04-11-2004 02:16 PM
Your attitude of saying what you can, basically, something is coming and it looks great to you, is somehow the perfect exemple of the biggest problem we yall about for ages :
The communication issue.
Let's face it, the biggest problem for DE is not item storage not working on some chasis or color customization not working, it's the one way communication.
This should be considered as bug n°1 on the bug list.
I though the new structure of the forum was made to solve that problem. It's now pretty obvious, it's not working at all.
In computer program development, the waterfall approach as been dropped long time ago by almost every one. Maybe it's time for SOE to drop it too.
2) We remove these expectations
A perfect example of this change is that they came to us with the Crafting Experimentation change that was in Publish 7 for one day.
They put it forth to gauge reaction and, when the community mostly said "No.", they removed it the day after P7 went Live.
If I were a dev I wouldn't be bragging about that example at all, TK. A change that had previously been rejected wholeheartedly by the crafting community was re-introduced, shot down again, and pulled, wasting resources to both put it up & take it down. If communication were functioning at all in this process, they would have clearly known what the opinion of the community was before wasting the precious resources they so obviously don't have enough of.
Message Edited by AudioOrgana on 04-12-2004 10:18 AM
Glantor wrote:
Seeing that we cannot influence what the devs will do, we have little choice but to alter our own expectations. It is only after we do this that we can start looking at things from a fresh perspective, and try to make the best of what we've got. Game theory . . .do what you think is best for you, given what the other party will do. John Nash,A Beautiful Mind, lovely story/movie. =)
If the hard approach of ranting and flaming does not work, perhaps we can try an alternative soft approach of being so optimistic and helpful that they have no choice but to improve our profession. In the end, everyone will win. Collaboration, not compromise.