Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: (Unofficial)Discussion: Hand-crafting vs. Factory-crafting brainstorm ideas
factoring skill in makes sense, but one of the other reasons people are talking about complexity is because we are thinking that it would be a good idea if the items that are harder and more time consumingto make provide more potential reward than those items that are easy to grind.
Jjiaah wrote:
Perhaps a solution for such a problem would then be to not go with complexity, but on skill ranks. Someone with 4/1/1/1 has a slightly better chance than someone with 4/1/1/0. A Master would have a slightly better chance than someone with 4/4/4/4. Balance that with the level of the schematic (better chance for a lvl 4 schematic than a lvl 3) and you can ensure there is a greater likelyhood of someone with Master making Master items getting CiC's vs a1/0/0/0 makingtheir highestitems. And at the same time, there is the tiny chance that a 1/0/0/0 person could get that one longshot CiC, which would not be unbalancing. I don't think that there should be any chance for Novice level crafting. A Novice itemgiving CiCs is like a McDonalds new-hire accidentally making a sufflet (sp?).
Okay....I'm really digging a lot of the stuff I'm seeing here...(not you, Drashk, just in general). Mal's "CiC" proposal is a very good one, I think since it offers us a lot of options.
There's so many good suggestions that I'd like to suggest we try to coalesce them together into one larger proposal.
- Core CIC idea
I think this basic premise is really good and has a lot of possibilities. When I first read this, I thought, "hmmm..
"Innovation Bonus Points" - these are marginally analagous to faction points in that you'd spend them on _____. - How to earn CICs
- Through Crafting
Okay....should this be hand-crafting or factory use?
I'm thinking..what if we have 2 flavors of CiC?
Hand-crafting CiCs - "Innovation Bonus"
Factory-crafting CiCs - "Production Bonus"
This might lead us into something that I thought of last night, which was not just to be thinking about the elite hand-crafting game but an elite factory-crafting game as well.
So, the hand crafting we have now is the 'low-level' and the factory game we have now is too.
The use of factory or hand-crafting flavored CiCs might give us a way to have an elite game for both types of playstyles. Balance. Yummy. - Randomly acquired
Errr...like truly random? Or just accessible via Amazing successes? I really like Jenden's idea of giving up your Amazing success to 'buy' these. That gives the player choice...a tradeoff, which is partly what this whole thing is about. - Percentage based on Schematic complexity
I'm not sold on this as our method. As was pointed out, complexity would have to overhauled to balance and that's just one more hurdle in the way to getting this passed. Is there some other method we can go do that would accomplish the same thing without need for overhauling?
If so, I'd say that would be more attractive..(but schematic complexity is a viable option in terms of the proposed system). - Through moderate to easy acquired loot items
I'd almost prefer that loot drops be something you used in conjunction with earned CiCs, not provide them. That means we have 'dual gates' to the elite crafting game...further keeping rare things rare.
If you only had CiCs or the loot drops, you couldn't move forward to craft item X. Only when you had both could the mini-game 'Innovation' puzzles begin. - Profession specific
Could be too pricey, in terms of development time. - Generic loot item
Errr....meaning? You'd get these looted from anything or...? - Listed/Non-Listedattributes
- Through quests
It'd be really cool to have some quests (like your Jawa droid quest ideas) to provide some of the more commonly needed loot drop schematics (limited factory run, of course).
Specificially, I think Pit Droid Chassis might be perfect for that specific quest. - How often can the quest be preformed
Hmm...That depends on how rare we all want item X or Y to be. Maybe one a month? Too harsh? - What type of quest missions
Something more like the crafting quests we have now...only on an elite level. Maybe we sprinkle in some of the mini-games brought up along the way.
Another version might be 10 mini-games you encounter during quests and a different 10 that you get from when you actually hand or a different 10 for factory crafting? - Through Junk vendor
The Junk vendor thing doesn't sit well with me, for some reason. I think it's cause I'd rather see any type of elite crafting game be 100% live player-centric. But...that's just me. If this has legs...we can run with it. - XP cost
Potentially abusable. May also not balance well for power vs. casual types. I think any system put in place has to be equally accessible and balanced for both types...to keep rare items rare. - AP cost
VERY Potentially abusable. See above. - Credit cost
I don't think we can go this way. This could lead us in the 'Rich get richer...' thing. Anything based on money places imbalance into the system based on who's got the deepest pockets.
If we consider this against a real-life situation, some of hte best inventions and idea have some from poor crafters working in their garage. This type of crafting subgame shouldn't, IMO, be related to the size of one's bank account in any way. - Resource cost
Same as above really. The only aspect to this that I see as workable would be use of specific/named rares needed for quests or schematics that were looted (but keep in mind that you'd also need the CiC points too). - Would CIC be tradeable
I vote no. I just see it as having too many possibilities for abuse/misuse. As we know, people will end up finding ways to use a system in ways that aren't intended (and that 'break' what is otherwise a good idea).
I think CiCs should be something that stay with a crafter, specifically and always. - Would they be profession specific
Again...I'm thinking this could be too costly in terms of development time. The Devs could do this if they wanted but I'd have to think we'd want them spending more time on making cooler/better puzzles and less on this sort of distinction. - Would they be non-profession specific
I think this is better, personally. - ETC
- Hand-crafting (as it is now): Tier 1 / Low-level crafting (no innovation here - but you could 'bank' CiCs to use later)
- Factory crafting (as it is now): Tier 1 / Low-level factory production (same as above)
- Hand-crafting (as it might be): Tier 2 / Elite-level, puzzle-driven 'innovation'crafting
- Factory crafting (as it might be): Tier2 / Elite-level, puzzle-driven 'production'crafting
I think what we all agree (so far....correct me if I'm wrong):
- CiCs (or something like it) should be part of the 'answer'
- There needs to be some kind of cost to gaining CiCs as a 'reward' (which, likely, you'd have to 'bank' to use later)
- Loot drops and/or loot quest rewards should be part of the 'answer' (I'd like to see these be needed in conjunction with CiCs...so that Elite crafters might be able to work together).
- Mini-puzzles are a key aspect to this 'innovation crafting' - There should be anywhere from 10-30 different mini-puzzles...some harder (or just different) than others.
- If there is to be such hand-crafting and/or factory crafting Elite-level crafting games, they have to balance so that we don't see servers economies messed up. Rare items should be both rare and worthwhile.
Thoughts?
/bow
Respectfully,
Malitevv wrote:
factoring skill in makes sense, but one of the other reasons people are talking about complexity is because we are thinking that it would be a good idea if the items that are harder and more time consumingto make provide more potential reward than those items that are easy to grind.
Jjiaah wrote:
Perhaps a solution for such a problem would then be to not go with complexity, but on skill ranks. Someone with 4/1/1/1 has a slightly better chance than someone with 4/1/1/0. A Master would have a slightly better chance than someone with 4/4/4/4. Balance that with the level of the schematic (better chance for a lvl 4 schematic than a lvl 3) and you can ensure there is a greater likelyhood of someone with Master making Master items getting CiC's vs a1/0/0/0 makingtheir highestitems. And at the same time, there is the tiny chance that a 1/0/0/0 person could get that one longshot CiC, which would not be unbalancing. I don't think that there should be any chance for Novice level crafting. A Novice itemgiving CiCs is like a McDonalds new-hire accidentally making a sufflet (sp?).
Agreed. But lets add something to this then. Each item that has multiple sub-components making it harder to make gets a small % added for each sub-component. Say, .25% for each crafted sub component.
So you have X% for the crafters skill levels, plus X% for the level of the schematic, plus X% for sub-components. Use something like the following:
- Each skill box (not including Novice) counts for .25%. Master counts as 1% for a 5% total. This helps Masters over dabblers.
- Each level up the branch a schematic is, is worth .25%. Master is worth 1% as per above.
- Each sub-component is worth .25%.
Theoretically, as an example, a Master WS making a Master level item with 3 sub-components would get 5% chance for skill level, 2% for the level of the schematic, and .75% for the sub components. The Master WS would get a 7.75% chance for a CiC. These %'s can be adjusted up and down for balance easily.
TheRealTK421 wrote:
- Core CIC idea I think this basic premise is really good and has a lot of possibilities. When I first read this, I thought, "hmmm.. "Innovation Bonus Points" - these are marginally analagous to faction points in that you'd spend them on _____.
Yes, but unlike FP's hopefully you won't wind up with a "balanced" negative CiC balance somewhere...
- How to earn CICs
- Through Crafting Okay....should this be hand-crafting or factory use? I'm thinking..what if we have 2 flavors of CiC? Hand-crafting CiCs - "Innovation Bonus" Factory-crafting CiCs - "Production Bonus" This might lead us into something that I thought of last night, which was not just to be thinking about the elite hand-crafting game but an elite factory-crafting game as well. So, the hand crafting we have now is the 'low-level' and the factory game we have now is too. The use of factory or hand-crafting flavored CiCs might give us a way to have an elite game for both types of playstyles. Balance. Yummy.
One type of CiC, usable in either Factory or Hand crafting. Two types of CiC's effectively doubles the amount of DB usage... that alone can be the death of a good idea.
- Randomly acquired Errr...like truly random? Or just accessible via Amazing successes? I really like Jenden's idea of giving up your Amazing success to 'buy' these. That gives the player choice...a tradeoff, which is partly what this whole thing is about.
I agree with the Amazing Success Disassembly 100%. Even if the crafter passes the % chance, there is still sacrifice to be made increasing the cost but not to an unreasonable level.
- Percentage based on Schematic complexity I'm not sold on this as our method. As was pointed out, complexity would have to overhauled to balance and that's just one more hurdle in the way to getting this passed. Is there some other method we can go do that would accomplish the same thing without need for overhauling? If so, I'd say that would be more attractive..(but schematic complexity is a viable option in terms of the proposed system).
See my post above.
- Through moderate to easy acquired loot items I'd almost prefer that loot drops be something you used in conjunction with earned CiCs, not provide them. That means we have 'dual gates' to the elite crafting game...further keeping rare things rare. If you only had CiCs or the loot drops, you couldn't move forward to craft item X. Only when you had both could the mini-game 'Innovation' puzzles begin.
As per my original post, I am in favor of "charged" schematics. Combined with the CiC proposal, a schematic with 2 charges of something improved would help preserve the rarity of items.
Perhaps givethe elite Master craftersthe ability to make the schematics for the other professions excluding their ownby spending his CiC's. If they have 2 Master professions, both schematics are excluded. This creates interdependancy and interaction without economy inflation or deep-pocket syndrome. Plus, only one schematic can be posessed at any time to regulate those that would master, schematic, drop cycle. The ability to craft these can come from the "Amazing success's" (ie, get an amazing success on a combat mod and disassemble, gives a schematic for an improved WSbarrel or something).
"Hey, Mr. WS... I need a schematic for the improved combat module. I'll trade ya the boomstick schematic"
This gives an alternate sink for CiC's. With the already rarity of them, someone having to choose to spend them on someone else or on their own items will further ensure that rares stay rare.
- Profession specific Could be too pricey, in terms of development time.
Couldn't agree more. Generic is the way to go.
- Generic loot item Errr....meaning? You'd get these looted from anything or...?
After review from my original post and the suggestions made thereafter, I disagree with loot. See my responses above.
- Listed/Non-Listedattributes
- Through quests It'd be really cool to have some quests (like your Jawa droid quest ideas) to provide some of the more commonly needed loot drop schematics (limited factory run, of course). Specificially, I think Pit Droid Chassis might be perfect for that specific quest.
Work this into the schematic idea and we're even more on track. MWS needs to do a quest to get the part for MDE Schematic 1. In the meantime MDE is running the quest for the piece for MWS schematic for to work their exchange.
- How often can the quest be preformed Hmm...That depends on how rare we all want item X or Y to be. Maybe one a month? Too harsh?
That would depend on the quality of the item. Perhaps levels of quests ranging from simple once a day quests to epic once a month quests. These could be broken down by profession, ie you choose which professions schematic pieceyou want to quest for. Same puzzle arrangement, different reward. Huge save of DB space there.
- What type of quest missions Something more like the crafting quests we have now...only on an elite level. Maybe we sprinkle in some of the mini-games brought up along the way. Another version might be 10 mini-games you encounter during quests and a different 10 that you get from when you actually hand or a different 10 for factory crafting?
I haven't concidered the types of quests, though mini-games may not necessarily be the answer. I don't have a better suggestion however.
- Through Junk vendor The Junk vendor thing doesn't sit well with me, for some reason. I think it's cause I'd rather see any type of elite crafting game be 100% live player-centric. But...that's just me. If this has legs...we can run with it.
- XP cost Potentially abusable. May also not balance well for power vs. casual types. I think any system put in place has to be equally accessible and balanced for both types...to keep rare items rare.
- AP cost VERY Potentially abusable. See above.
- Credit cost I don't think we can go this way. This could lead us in the 'Rich get richer...' thing. Anything based on money places imbalance into the system based on who's got the deepest pockets. If we consider this against a real-life situation, some of hte best inventions and idea have some from poor crafters working in their garage. This type of crafting subgame shouldn't, IMO, be related to the size of one's bank account in any way.
- Resource cost Same as above really. The only aspect to this that I see as workable would be use of specific/named rares needed for quests or schematics that were looted (but keep in mind that you'd also need the CiC points too).
I agree with TK on this. No no no to all of the above.
- Would CIC be tradeable I vote no. I just see it as having too many possibilities for abuse/misuse. As we know, people will end up finding ways to use a system in ways that aren't intended (and that 'break' what is otherwise a good idea). I think CiCs should be something that stay with a crafter, specifically and always.
Agreed.
- Would they be profession specific Again...I'm thinking this could be too costly in terms of development time. The Devs could do this if they wanted but I'd have to think we'd want them spending more time on making cooler/better puzzles and less on this sort of distinction.
- Would they be non-profession specific I think this is better, personally.
Generic is definitly the way to go. I'd hate to see this discarded because it had too much DB work and several programming issues.
- ETC
- Hand-crafting (as it is now): Tier 1 / Low-level crafting (no innovation here - but you could 'bank' CiCs to use later)
- Factory crafting (as it is now): Tier 1 / Low-level factory production (same as above)
- Hand-crafting (as it might be): Tier 2 / Elite-level, puzzle-driven 'innovation'crafting
- Factory crafting (as it might be): Tier2 / Elite-level, puzzle-driven 'production'crafting
This could work. While I don't really like the puzzle idea, it's definitly viable. The game system should be a generic but varried build with the only real differences being the reward. That way you don't have to program specific games for each profession, and then break that into 2 more for hand vs factory. Or even just 2 seperate ones (which doubles the work).
I think what we all agree (so far....correct me if I'm wrong):
- CiCs (or something like it) should be part of the 'answer'
- There needs to be some kind of cost to gaining CiCs as a 'reward' (which, likely, you'd have to 'bank' to use later)
- Loot drops and/or loot quest rewards should be part of the 'answer' (I'd like to see these be needed in conjunction with CiCs...so that Elite crafters might be able to work together).
- Mini-puzzles are a key aspect to this 'innovation crafting' - There should be anywhere from 10-30 different mini-puzzles...some harder (or just different) than others.
- If there is to be such hand-crafting and/or factory crafting Elite-level crafting games, they have to balance so that we don't see servers economies messed up. Rare items should be both rare and worthwhile.
Exactly.
Thoughts? /bow Respectfully,
Now, not to digress too much but....
TheRealTK421 wrote:
Malitevv wrote:
It would mean a lot more work. I do also sort of see the appeal of mixing item loot drops in with the process, but I know Jenden is going to be unhappy with that idea for inventory clutter reasons. I agree with that too. Well...come on. ONE looted/quested schematic is going to cause inventory problems? With furniture adding inventory space to houses, this should be a non-issues, si?
Furniture adds house inventory space??? Did I miss something? 
TheRealTK421 wrote:
Malitevv wrote:
It would mean a lot more work. I do also sort of see the appeal of mixing item loot drops in with the process, but I know Jenden is going to be unhappy with that idea for inventory clutter reasons. I agree with that too.
Well...come on. ONE looted/quested schematic is going to cause inventory problems?
With furniture adding inventory space to houses, this should be a non-issues, si?
Well, if we are just talking about schematics, i see no issue. But if we are talking about carrying half a dozen or more copies of the same lootable components around, then yes, it's an issue.
On the other point: Since when does furniture add inventory space to houses?
"Test Center Update Notes - Sept. 15, 2004"
Malitevv wrote:
On the other point: Since when does furniture add inventory space to houses?
- Bounty Hunter Payouts Have Been Adjusted Based on the Level of the Jedi - Non-Force ranked Jedi will always be worth at least 25k credits.Force Ranked Jedi will always be worth at least 50k credits
- Bounty Hunter: The XP reward for player bounty missions has been increased.
- FS Quests: Updated the code in the medic quest puzzle for phase 1 to fix an unlocking problem
- Furniture: All armoires, bookcases, cabinets, and chests can now all hold items.
Please post any issues that you find with these items in this thread.
Thanks,
Grant "Rogue_5" McDaniel
SWG QA Buildmaster
Yup. It's true (and on the way).
/bow
Respectfully,
that is very likely not going to add to the building's total storage. that is just going to make those furniture itemsfunction like "unequipable" backpacks. all of the current objects which hold items (backpacks and crafting stations)do not add to the building's storage when they are placed in a building. whydo you thinkthese furniture items willbe any different?
TheRealTK421 wrote:
Furniture: All armoires, bookcases, cabinets, and chests can now all hold items.
Errr...not last time I checked.
Malitevv wrote:
...all of the current objects which hold items (backpacks and crafting stations)do not add to the building's storage when they are placed in a building.
When I have backpacks of resources, it does add to my building inv. cap. Did they change this and I missed it?
/bow
Respectfully,
TheRealTK421 wrote:
Errr...not last time I checked.
When I have backpacks of resources, it does add to my building inv. cap. Did they change this and I missed it?
It's always been like that. At least, for as long as I've had a house (which puts it back to November of last year). Go into a house that is one object away from max storage, drop an empty back pack, and then open that back pack and try to put another object in. It won't work. You will be told that the container is full.
Now, there used to be a bug/exploit where you could drop a back pack that was full into a house that didn't have enough room to hold a full backpack and then your effective storage cap for the house would get raised by an amount equal to the number of extra items in the backpack, but I've never made use of it for fear that they might crack down on it.
I'll check further into this...since it wasn't too clear to me.
Anyway, it's all beside the point. If you can use inventory space to hold a 'rare' reward, you're gonna make room for it, yes?
/bow
Respectfully,
Sure, but like I said, whether I think it is a bad idea depends upon what sort of frequency we are talking about. It we are talking about loot in the form of the occassional schematic that I can learn, then that is fine. But if we are talking about me needing to juggle around scores of non-stackable loot components in my inventory because I will need them latter in order to make use of my CiC's when I do get them, then I think it is a bad idea.
TheRealTK421 wrote:
Anyway, it's all beside the point. If you can use inventory space to hold a 'rare' reward, you're gonna make room for it, yes?
TheRealTK421 wrote:
/shrug
I'll check further into this...since it wasn't too clear to me.
Anyway, it's all beside the point. If you can use inventory space to hold a 'rare' reward, you're gonna make room for it, yes?
/bow
Respectfully,
yea, they do still take up inventory room (that came into effect sometime around august/september last year).
Like he said, it depends on the actual rarity of the reward. I don't want to be carrying around more than 1-2 at any given time, and storing them in my house defeats the purpose of being a "backpack" crafter.