Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: DE Community Patch Notes
Straker_Atrella
Thu Oct 21, 2004 5:29 pm
#40
Ok let me clarify on something.
I have zero problem with new DE's. Real true new DE's. If your are actually grinding up DE by making droids the hard way or by yourself, learning Droids as you go, then you are a real DE. You care about Droids, and will fit right in with the rest of us who care about Droids. I welcome you to the family.
What I am talking about are the people who go out, buy 600k Steel, and 300k Fibroplast, grind DE out in a day, with the whole purpose of being a DE to make money off Droids and JTL. After they make their money, they will drop it. They just don't care.
Think it's not happening? It is.
Every server used to have people who dabbled in Droids, stocking some models, doing it, but not taking it to seriously. They probably had less then 10 DE's who really made a living off it. Now I am willing to bet that each server has 50+ maybe 100+ MASTER Droid Engineers.
Now some arn't doing it for Money, they plan to just make the Droid free for their guild. That is fine, yet it cuts into the business of people who actually live off of Droids.
Others ARE trying to cash in, there are 2 ways to make money from crafting in JTL. Shipwright and DE.
Shipwright, you need a lot of resources to Master, you will need some new resources that havn't spawned yet. You need other resources that need to be high quality, that you can have banked up. Plus experimentation matters, this means that there will be variety in wares and a quality market, as well as bulk. This is not something that just anybody can jump into and do.
Droid Engineer, the resources to Master can be bought pretty easily. Not a single JTL item takes a named resource to make. Quality and Experimentation don't matter at all. You don't evne need named resources at all. The only competitive market will be price.
The kicker is that it's not like you can't make level 6 Astromechs without Dioxis gas or Bery copper, you just needed to stack two level 4 modules. So a newer player could do it, they just lost a slot. That's what they took away from DE's with the named resources, an extra Module slot to add diversity.
Location, Reputation, and Quality of established crafters doesn't play any role in a bulk, non-quality market. Why should you travel 150m to my vendor to buy a droid, when you can buy an R5 on the Bazaar for 6k that will perform EXACTLY as well.
Drashk,
On your suggestion, we have talked about linking exp to vitality before as well. The only problem with that is the better you make them, the less people buy, Kind of a circle. I also still think that 2 points a death is to low. Odds are really good most people wont die 50 times each tier. So that means the only time you would replace them would be when you were going to replace them anyway.
Drashk
Thu Oct 21, 2004 5:38 pm
#41
Rhysen,
The problem is that the change may actually be a bug and not a change. If you factor in the fact that Data Module Experimentation is currently 'wonky' the signs point towards this being a bug. The Development team is spliting its time between making sure that the Ground Game Regressions are squashed, along with making sure that JtL is well balanced with added features.
The resoruce requirements do not only affect JtL issues, butit also affects the current ground game use. From my point of view, this is a Ground Game Regression Issue that needs to be addressed, so that we don't have one additional item to add to the Centralized Droid Issues Thread.
Data Storage Modules are actually going to be less important to sales then Flight Computers, due to the number of ships that a Flight Computer can use over an Astromech. If the Data Storage Module resources are not addressed during the JtL process, we run the likely reality that thisIssuewill not be addressed for at least 6+ months.
Drashk
Thu Oct 21, 2004 5:52 pm
#42
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Drashk,
On your suggestion, we have talked about linking exp to vitality before as well. The only problem with that is the better you make them, the less people buy, Kind of a circle. I also still think that 2 points a death is to low. Odds are really good most people wont die 50 times each tier. So that means the only time you would replace them would be when you were going to replace them anyway.
There really isn't much more that could be experimented on, to give the Flight Computers a little more 'weight'. Weapons and Armor both use the same system.
If you make the decay system too agressive, then less people use the Droid Command Programs. As it sits right now, many of the people that have participate in JtL Beta are completely clueless about droid use. Just like most of the Droid uses, Droid Engineers will have to educate our customers. Most of the Pilots that I have talked with in Beta wait to train the Droid Tier as thier last choice.
The inclusion of a decay system isn't intended to force a pilot into buying more then one droid or flight computer per tier. Master Pilots will be the most effected by a decay system, since they won't have to buy a new droid or flight computer. This is the market that we would be targeting.
Straker_Atrella
Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:21 pm
#43
Rhysen,
That's jsut it though, people WERE counting on JTL to bea large part of a DE's revenue. Our Droids don't decay, quality doesn't matter on many modues, pushing resales and value down. Many people were looking to JTL as a chance to help fix the DE market. Weaponsmiths, Chefs, Docs, and Armorsmiths all have a great market on the ground game. It would have been very easy to give a valid space market to DE's.
Drashk,
I know there isn't much else to experiment on with them. It's far to late to want how well they work linked to effectiveness, that's how it should have been done. Quality equals speed at which they work, it's to late to hope for that now.
So I guess the only thing as can do to make the exp = vitality thing work is start it out really low. Then let it get experimented up to a decent amount.
So Master level pilots will be our only repeat market? I'm not sure how I feel about that. We have already established that these things are going to be very cheap. Probably about 20k. I don't know if having somebody buy a new FC for 20k every couple of months much of a market. Well not compared to other crafts.
JavelinCatcher
Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:41 pm
#44
Rhysen wrote:
Astromech droids and flight computers for ships in JTL are an additional revenue stream. And quite possibly an intentional minor one considering it's not intended to be a DE's main revenue stream. Alongside the likelihood of high costs for high quality ships in an expansion allegedly maintaining a separation from the existing game until future integration. Viewed objectively, this is a minor piece of generosity on SOE's part and really not worth making a huge deal over.Given that the Shipwright profession only requires parts of the Artisan profession, the additions could have just as easily been integrated into Artisan and the whole point would be moot.
Let me ask you something, what is our main revenue stream? Some would say BH droids. Some would say combat droids. Some would say utility droids. What do they have in common? They are all droids.I hardly play my "live" DE anymore. This is more out of principal for me and the people I've met as aDE on livethan anything.
Making a single ingredient of a single module a major balance point isn't worth the effort. Especially when it's obvious, at least to me, that Droid Engineers are not intended to be a major part of the JTL expansion. If we were, then the quality of the droid anda bigger variety ofmodules would play a bigger role. Things like power modules installed giving ships an emergency boost of power or repair modules enabling astromechs to do inflight emergency repairs, Or droid HAM and mechanism quality determining when an astromech/component became disabled during combat, making the stored programs/abilities unavailible and the droids a vulnerability the pilot would want to invest heavily in to minimize.
In this game,a droid's modules defines a droid and what it can do (there are a couple minor exceptions). We had 2 publishes to which "we were given love" as most of the combat professions would call it. Out of 2 publishes, there was no change to "make the quality of a droid matter"outside of a few models getting bumps in their HAM. If they didn't do it then, they sure as won't do it now. The whole idea of integrating droids in with JTL was to:
1) conform with cannon
2) a second attempt to increase droid use in the combat arena.
You don't realize how many people came up to me in beta while I had my Master DE tag on that didn't know what a droid could be used for!
Who has Dioxis Inert Gas isn't going to separate snot from mucous. If they've got the resources to grind out MDE in a short time, they've prolly got the resources to get ahold of enough of he resources to take the same market share anyways. Existing stockpiles, credits and connectionstilt the balanceway too easily. So long as it's not the majority of DE'sincome in question (and it's not), it's honestly not worth blowing a fuse over. Not when DE isn't a major focus of the expansion (and it's not).
I could argue that Droids and DE is a major focus in the expansion. We had a single developer dedicated to writing/debugging and making sure droid programs integrated with the ground droids. They wouldn't dedicate that kind of resources if they didn't feel it was important.
Talking about the portion in yellow, it very well could have been for some DE's out there. I've known DE's who specialized in only medical droids and made good credits off that vendor. Their vendor was always stocked too because he specialized.I know DE's who specialize only in Bomb droids. Those are pretty specific markets. A DE could easily specialize in 100% JTL needs.
Rhysen
Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:48 pm
#45
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Rhysen,
That's jsut it though, people WERE counting on JTL to bea large part of a DE's revenue. Our Droids don't decay, quality doesn't matter on many modues, pushing resales and value down. Many people were looking to JTL as a chance to help fix the DE market. Weaponsmiths, Chefs, Docs, and Armorsmiths all have a great market on the ground game. It would have been very easy to give a valid space market to DE's.
I wasn't. It's a single area of usage for droids, which would leave the issues you mentioned (lack of decay and quality limiting the market) still present in the larger part of the game. JTL introduces 4 new professions, 3 of which all do the same thing. That still leaves the majority of the potential market, the rest of the professions, and the functionality there more important to me.
JTL is too isolated an area at the moment to make a fuss over. If it's a bug, then Drashk is correct in spirit that it should be addressed. But in a practical sense, I doubt that either way it'd have a significant impact on your concerns of overnight DEs taking a market share. Pitchforks and torches over 2 resources it's definately not worth. It wouldn't significantly mitigate the otherissues. And personally, I'd not want astromech/filght computer market to be a large part of my revenue.
I mean, what if piloting sucks or people decide to more than vape ships all day? 
Drashk
Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:52 pm
#46
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Rhysen,
That's jsut it though, people WERE counting on JTL to bea large part of a DE's revenue. Our Droids don't decay, quality doesn't matter on many modues, pushing resales and value down. Many people were looking to JTL as a chance to help fix the DE market. Weaponsmiths, Chefs, Docs, and Armorsmiths all have a great market on the ground game. It would have been very easy to give a valid space market to DE's.
Even if Droids were incorporated further into JtL, the greater issue of a reoccuring market wouldn't be addressed. The only way to do this would be to create a Droid Decay system. Droid Engineers are getting a decent market addition. Market addition is not the same asreoccuring market. Also, don't confusecredit income with the droid market. Credit income is solely based upon the price system that you determine. JtL is going to increase the overall Droid Market, which is what it has done.
The only way that Droid Engineers will have a reoccuring marketwould bewith the inclusion of a Decay system of some sort. This was not the goal of JtL, nor should it have been. Droid Decay is something that we hope will be added down the line, and should address the larger droid market.
Drashk,
I know there isn't much else to experiment on with them. It's far to late to want how well they work linked to effectiveness, that's how it should have been done. Quality equals speed at which they work, it's to late to hope for that now.
That would infringeupon the Droid Interface Devices, which are Shipwright crafted items needed to connect a Droid or Computer to a ship. The Droid Interface was added, so that a targetable Droid item would be onboard a ship. This route was chosen over having the Droid or Flight Computer directly targeted.
So I guess the only thing as can do to make the exp = vitality thing work is start it out really low. Then let it get experimented up to a decent amount.
So Master level pilots will be our only repeat market? I'm not sure how I feel about that. We have already established that these things are going to be very cheap. Probably about 20k. I don't know if having somebody buy a new FC for 20k every couple of months much of a market. Well not compared to other crafts.
Actually, with the rate of ship destruction that a Master Pilot is likely to see, from PvP and some of the high end content, we would see a turn around of about 2-4 weeks, instead of a couple of months. Again, don't confuse credit income with a reoccuring Droid Market. Think of it this way....Either a one time sale per person, or an on going sales oppurtunity. I chose the later option. Any repeat sale is a good sale.
Straker_Atrella
Thu Oct 21, 2004 7:21 pm
#47
Drashk wrote:
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Rhysen,
That's jsut it though, people WERE counting on JTL to bea large part of a DE's revenue. Our Droids don't decay, quality doesn't matter on many modues, pushing resales and value down. Many people were looking to JTL as a chance to help fix the DE market. Weaponsmiths, Chefs, Docs, and Armorsmiths all have a great market on the ground game. It would have been very easy to give a valid space market to DE's.
Even if Droids were incorporated further into JtL, the greater issue of a reoccuring market wouldn't be addressed. The only way to do this would be to create a Droid Decay system. Droid Engineers are getting a decent market addition. Market addition is not the same asreoccuring market. Also, don't confusecredit income with the droid market. Credit income is solely based upon the price system that you determine. JtL is going to increase the overall Droid Market, which is what it has done.
The only way that Droid Engineers will have a reoccuring marketwould bewith the inclusion of a Decay system of some sort. This was not the goal of JtL, nor should it have been. Droid Decay is something that we hope will be added down the line, and should address the larger droid market.
Drashk,
I know there isn't much else to experiment on with them. It's far to late to want how well they work linked to effectiveness, that's how it should have been done. Quality equals speed at which they work, it's to late to hope for that now.
That would infringeupon the Droid Interface Devices, which are Shipwright crafted items needed to connect a Droid or Computer to a ship. The Droid Interface was added, so that a targetable Droid item would be onboard a ship. This route was chosen over having the Droid or Flight Computer directly targeted.
So I guess the only thing as can do to make the exp = vitality thing work is start it out really low. Then let it get experimented up to a decent amount.
So Master level pilots will be our only repeat market? I'm not sure how I feel about that. We have already established that these things are going to be very cheap. Probably about 20k. I don't know if having somebody buy a new FC for 20k every couple of months much of a market. Well not compared to other crafts.
Actually, with the rate of ship destruction that a Master Pilot is likely to see, from PvP and some of the high end content, we would see a turn around of about 2-4 weeks, instead of a couple of months. Again, don't confuse credit income with a reoccuring Droid Market. Think of it this way....Either a one time sale per person, or an on going sales oppurtunity. I chose the later option. Any repeat sale is a good sale.
What would have ben so wrong about having the droid be targettable?
So now you can look forward to selling somebody a 1k-6k item every 2-4 weeks? Batteries are more profitable. I would rather sell somebody a one time item for 60k, then have ot wait 10 months to make the same amount of money.
Droid Decay at a later date. I'm not doubting it, just like we didn't doubt that JTL would help out DE's. Yet as far as we know no coding is started on Droid Decay, with all they have planned, we may not see it for a year. So in that year, other professions (and combatents) make hundreds of millions (maybe billions,) while we get told yet again to wait.
Sales for the sake of sales is not a market. Sales that matter is a market.
Drashk
Thu Oct 21, 2004 8:05 pm
#48
Forgot to mention something about a resource to keep your eyes out for....
Hardened Arveshium Steel
The reason that I say this is because it is the one steel that does not follow the standard 650 Conductivity cap.
The first shift of Hardened Arveshium Steel that I picked up on SpaceBeta had a Conductivity of 801 and a Overall Quality of 959.
Thesecondshift of Hardened Arveshium Steel that I picked up on SpaceBeta had a Conductivity of 847 and a Overall Quality of 693.
Just a heads up to everyone
Straker_Atrella
Thu Oct 21, 2004 9:37 pm
#50
Just so people understand what I am talking about.
Ok, I have been talking to some of my DE friends from Scylla, sort of Apprenticises. Yet really friends.
We realized something as they were asking abotut how many of each FC or Droid to make and what to charge for them. They are making runs of 1000, and considering 4 cpu.
Consider some numbers.
4 cpu on a FC is 252 credits. Yes 252. Let's say that you are "expensive" and sell them for 1000 each.
Let's say 3000 people on an entire Server want a Flight Computer, every single one of them buy from you. They don't buy from anybody else. Not realistic, but the whole server buys from you.
You make 3 million credits.
Now to be realistic, split those 3 million credits between say 50 DE's. That leaves each DE with 60 sales. Meaning 60,000 credits.
Now that was just for level 1 flight computers, multiply that times 6. That gives you 360k. Tack on some Droid sales plus modules, and you MAY break 500k.
So the profit that an average DE can expect from JTL is 500k TOTAL over time.
Your going to charge more then 1k? Sure, but 1k is already 15 cpu, if you go higer, people are going to undercut you.
Look at the numbers, and maybe you will see why I am upset.
Gron_DM
Thu Oct 21, 2004 10:30 pm
#51
Drashk wrote:
Forgot to mention something about a resource to keep your eyes out for....
Hardened Arveshium Steel
The reason that I say this is because it is the one steel that does not follow the standard 650 Conductivity cap.
The first shift of Hardened Arveshium Steel that I picked up on SpaceBeta had a Conductivity of 801 and a Overall Quality of 959.
Thesecondshift of Hardened Arveshium Steel that I picked up on SpaceBeta had a Conductivity of 847 and a Overall Quality of 693.
Just a heads up to everyone
What the crap?? im a WS alsothis will play serious havok with the pre-established top steels 
just wow....well thanks for the heads up ill let my WS friends know
Drashk
Thu Oct 21, 2004 10:50 pm
#52
Gron_DM wrote:
What the crap?? im a WS alsothis will play serious havok with the pre-established top steels
just wow....well thanks for the heads up ill let my WS friends know
Ya, this steel is freakin awesome and will have a pretty big impact on a number of different crafted goods, for a few professions.