Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Hybrid DE Discussion: Melee Balance
Daker-Naritus wrote:
...(This) proposal is almost EXACTLY the same thing TH proposed the first time (his first attempt, not the second Droid Handler Profession proposal), and well over 80% of DEs hated it because there is nothing new to sell (only DEs get all the coold droids)...
It's time for a total rethink of how the DE profession functions in SWG - because if it doesn't get any better than what we've been told will be in Publish 8, barker modules and entertainers blowing usless smoke aren't going to be enough to save us.
StGabriel wrote:
I'm glad this thread got started here. I originally voiced some concerns about this thing to TK.
In short let me express the concern this way:
<Snip>
For all of the above reasons, if this proposal is indeed taken on (i.e. gets through the devs) I really do hope that one of the first steps is looking at ways to open up droids for both sides of the combat spectrum.
Message Edited by StGabriel on 03-26-2004 02:55 AM
StGabriel
Thanks for your input. I know its a lot to read, the wafflings of DE's are famous
That said, I believe your concerns are all addressed in this thread, and though it is long and tedious getting to a solution (and reading the thread through), I do believe we have come up with something that you could sign up to supporting.
Sodan is (I believe) writing up a Version 3 of the hybrid plan which does include and address the 'ranged' issue, so perhaps it would be easier for you to wait for that. Otherwise, if you do have the time to read the thread right through, I think you will find we have taken your concerns to heart, and proposed a solution.
Either way, it would help enormously to have your support.
Thanks
Message Edited by DiLune on 03-26-2004 09:19 AM
Message Edited by DiLune on 03-26-2004 09:22 AM
BH's shouldn't need the help of more powerful combat droids. The BH profession uses the most skill points in the game, and as such should be the most powerful. That's really not the case, but it is how things should be.
DiLune wrote:
The prof that suffers though is the BH because for him to cross into DE to get droid levels is almost crippling under this model. (By that I mean the Proposed Droid Hybrid in general, not my particular proposal.)
I am not of the opinion that there needs to be any combat class prerequsite for the combat droid capability.
CH requires only scout skills, no combat. Combat Medic does, and I suppose the idea of a combat input to a hybrid DE came by analogy to that. But I would rather see any skillpoint/experience requirements needed in addtion to DE prerequsitescome out of the Artisan based professions, perhaps MA.
This fits from a role-play perspective, as the requirement should be technology, not gunslinging.
It is consistent with allowing the most capable combat droids, as it limits the other combat skills that can be added to it. Ranged support, despite some comments to the contrary, contains some very valuable combat skills. Also MA, in particular, would make the skillpoint consumption notably higher than that for CH, so the best droids could be even better than the best creatures.
While this would severly limit dabbling in droid use for combat oriented characters, it would not inhibit droid sales. Droid guards would be the defensive capabilty of choice for crafters, since the MA slot does not cost them much in skillpoints and has intrinsic value.
StGabriel wrote:
I'm glad this thread got started here. I originally voiced some concerns about this thing to TK.
<snip>
Of course another reason to do this is that if the system uses ranged support it's going to sell pretty poorly with melee characters (who frequently bring up the lack of hybrid melee content). Politically/strategicallz speaking I think you shouldn't be so quick to make enemies. No, that's not a threat, just a prediction.No matter what though whenever we're talking about systems like this, the implications for other professions can be nearly as important as those for the profession that is getting the content.
Message Edited by StGabriel on 03-26-2004 02:55 AM
AO
StGabriel wrote:
What are you seeking to get out of using Ranged Support as a gate for this skill?
Fufilling the Devs requirement of "more skillpoints = more checkers". Nothing else. They have said a novice-style or independent certification line was not possible. We are working with what we know/what little information we have been given. I don't think anyone cares where it goes - ranged was just the most logical choice. What are your suggestions?
For all of the above reasons, if this proposal is indeed taken on (i.e. gets through the devs) I really do hope that one of the first steps is looking at ways to open up droids for both sides of the combat spectrum.
Again, what are your suggestions for doing this? Personally, I'd like to see more dynamic skill trees - as you poined out, smugglers, for instance, must have both novice marksman and novice brawler skills to become smugglers, yet the smuggler tree is only about Pistols and doesn't even really give Pistol moves or any bonuses. Prereqwas changed from Bus IV to Unarmed IV because people complained about being forced into an artisan profession - but to most smugglers Unarmed IV is just as useless. The moral of this story? They apparently cannot or will not implement dynamic skill trees (i.e., you must have Pistols IV, and Bus IV OR Unarmed IV), in which case I really don't see anywhere else to put it besides Ranged IV if the current rules for skill tree pre-reqs remains.
Of course another reason to do this is that if the system uses ranged support it's going to sell pretty poorly with melee characters (who frequently bring up the lack of hybrid melee content). Politically/strategicallz speaking I think you shouldn't be so quick to make enemies. No, that's not a threat, just a prediction.
Well, no one trying to make enemies - simply trying to find the best way to fufill the requirements the Devs have set forth. If you can think of a better place, I think we'd all greatly appriciate the suggestion of any alternatives.
Message Edited by AudioOrgana on 03-26-2004 03:47 AM
Message Edited by Sodan-droiddreamer on 03-26-2004 02:11 PM
Daker-Naritus wrote:
See, that was my point TK...
If you add a +1 to the top of each brawler tree, you might as well add a +1 to the top of each marksman tree as well (because it would be unbalanced otherwise...if brawlers get it in a normal tree, marksman should too).
My thought was that almost all players have at least one marksman or brawler tree completed, so that turns this requirement into a nullity....everyone is going to do it anyway so it does nothing. The general effect would be a combat droid "certification" in all of the normal marksman and brawler trees. Certifications are bad...
Now, the ranged support tree....that is a little different. Not every marksman picks up the ranged support tree, because the specials you get out of it aren't that great. Additionally, it takes a bunch of combat xp to move up the tree (which can be gained through BOTH brawling AND marksmanning by the way...you don't have to use a gun to earn these). Many people view it as a waste of skill points and time. That is what makes it a good prerequisite for the combat droids...it is not something everyone already does.
If you wanted to make it marksman v. brawler fair, I think I would much rather see the requirement move from ranged support to a scout or other neutral tree. Then again, however, you have a problem....
All CHs already have to take up the 2 trees that it would be logical for this requirement to sit in. So you are stacking even more pet power in the CH prerequisites...
I really think the best solution is to put it in the ranged support tree and leave it. Honestly, the tree makes a good skill point sink that not everyone alkready does...
I agree with this post. One important point is that if you put +1 Combat Droid at the top of all the Brawler and Marksman skilltrees, players STILL have to grind to 4000 Artisan and 0040 DE. That's like 29 extra points (I think, cannot recall numbers right now) AND IMPORTANTLY, its a different kind of grind.
We're not talking shoot 'em up and freebie skillpoints. We're talking about combat types picking up the crafting tools and getting lots of resources together and learning what a b*itch it is to be a crafter. At the end of this process -- DING -- they get to use combat droids based on their newfound UNDERSTANDING of combat droids. Thus, this option is not a pure "free certs" plan.
DiLune wrote:
I think the combat droid certs should be included in all novice combat elite boxes (including SL, Commando and BH.) That solves your problem of melee vs range. It doesn't actually add any power in particular to any of those professions. Why? You cert the ability to use the CL10-13 basic combat droid there. (people could already have a CL10 pet at this point.) So you haven't added any power to the professions unless theythen go up the DE 0040 line to get higher CL droids.
Many combat elite already have scout SP spent for harvesting and movement mods. It doesn't take that much more over what they already spent to go up into CH and pick up some pet power. Crossing into artisan does not lend itself to combat capabilities so that is where a combat modeled player's "dead" SP would be hanging. (the tradeoff checkers analogy.)
The prof that suffers though is the BH because for him to cross into DE to get droid levels is almost crippling under this model. (By that I mean the Proposed Droid Hybrid in general, not my particular proposal.)
(Had to addanother item. Many many combat people spend 9 SP to get range support 3 anyway for warningshot. They are really only giving up 5 SP to get to range support 4 if that is a requirement.)
Message Edited by DiLune on 03-26-2004 09:19 AM
Message Edited by DiLune on 03-26-2004 09:22 AM
Interesting proposal. I'd like to see the math on this -- how many skillpoints involved for how many pet lvls and how much exp it would take to get there.
Without those numbers, we're in a gray area of balance. We need to have a black and white plan with solid numbers. Pls help us out with doing the math. I am horrible at math.