Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Discussion: Hand-crafting vs. Factory-crafting (relating to Quality of product)
Straker_Atrella wrote:
I simply don't understand where some people get the impression that new crafters do not have a chance. Maybe it is a server thing.
- access to resources
- maximum factory capacity
- limited marketing abilities
Both 1 and 2 are limited by the fact that a player has 10 lots. 3 is something the developers have been working hard to improve recently (they added the auction channel and removed empty vendors from the world map). but 3 is of lesser importance, word ofmouth can eventually overtake your limited advertising option.
But 2 is very important because no matter how good you are and no matter how badly you want to craft 100's of every item in your schematic list, you are limited by the number of factories that you can run at one time. This is why I pulled out of the BH droid market at one point during my career. It's because I didn't have enough lots to run enough factories to make as many BH droid's as people wanted to buy and I got sick of having an empty BH droid vendor. I've since gotten back into the BH droid market because I now share a few lots with my alt and that frees me up to set up another factory and still do mining.
Access to lots really is the fundamentatl issue if you are concerned about monopolies in my opinion (and I am not saying monopolies actually exist because I don't think that they do). Because quite frankly, a single player with only 10 lots just won't have the capacity to monopolize anything. Now, I share with a real account that I own, which gives me access to 20 lots. And that helps me significantly. But even at that capacity, I would have trouble monopoloizing my market if I tried to do so. I think I would need considerebly more access in-order to do that.
So, in short, if the reason for this sort of change is to address new crafter "access to the market" issues, and to address apparrent "monopolies". Then this is totally the wrong way to do it, in my opinion. Factories are not the issue. Access to lots is the issue. Removing cross-server lot trades would be a big step in the direction of addressing that issue. Changing the way factory crafting vs. hand crafting works would be a very tiny step and wouldn't change the overall situation much at all, unless they completely nerfed factories and made it so all factory crafted items were significantly sub-par. I suppose there might be a nice middle ground where factory made items are still pretty good (good enough for people to buy and use), but hand-crafted items are a little better (better enough to be worth making and buying, but not so good that equivalent factory items are useless).
/sign
AudioOrgana wrote:
[Something REALLY well put...]
AO
Straker_Atrella wrote:
If I die from bad luck, that is fine.
If I die because he had more skill that is fine.
If I die because he was able to pay 30 million for his armor, and I had only 5 million to bid, that is not fine.
AudioOrgana wrote:
/snip
In the end, this will do nothing that you want to accomplish, because industrial people like me will not continue to make these products if they are nerfed, and will invest the millions or resources we have and bang out the best droids just like you. Now, instead of competing with a big corporation, which made it easy for hand-DE's to distinguish themselves, you will be competing with someone who still has a huge customer base and demand, and it would simply change how we play SWG, only without the burdon of inventory and other risks of Industrial production. And we'll just sit for a couple of hours every few days and bang out 100 droids by hand, with our of rare warehoused resources which we have been saving in Industrial quantities, and those people who are complaining about the system as is will be no better off. Industrial Droid Engineers are pretty, well, industrious, and simply will not continue to use factories if they are nerfed. Oh, and let's not forget about the customers, who already complain how hard it is to find a decent droid vendor.
It comes down to this : if you choose to build by hand because you like it better, take advantage of the benefits of it but don't ask me to subsidize your playchoice. If you want the benefits of Industrial crafting, then become an Industrialist. If you are not willing to do the work that goes into that (even if it means running missions to make your start-up capital, as many of us had to), then you don't deserve the benefits. Giving a bonus to handcrafted items would be welfare for people who are choosing very actively their station in the game.
I'm all for looted components and other additions - but an inherent bonus because you choose to make a prototype instead of manufacturing the item industrially would not only be an unfair nerf to Industrialists, it will never accomplish what you want it to, because Industrial work would simply die. I'm sure this would bring relief or personal satisfaction to that segment that are afraid of or don't want to put in the work to compete on that level, but long-term it's still not going to help those who choose not to help themselves.
AO
Message Edited by AudioOrgana on 09-10-2004 01:55 PM
My take is simple. I would rather see you hand-make a hundred top-quality droids a day with your stockpiled resources over *hundred's* of those exact same top-quailty droids with those exact same resources. The former model allows more DE's to be actively involved in making and SELLING droids. The latter makes it hard for other who do not have the...resolve...you exhibit. But this is not about me, its about the dozens of new people entering the game every day. Its about them being able to have fun making droids too. Its about them not having to run survey missions every week, month after month, because they just cant sell enough droids to keep up with this hostile marketplace. People seem to mock suggestions made by threads like this a "socialist".While it may have the same flavor, dont forget. ITS A GAME! And ALL the people who pay to be a part of this DESERVE a chance.
For those Industrialists out there, keep going. Keep making hundreds of droids a day. If I want a few really good Det droids, I'll go shop around for a while. If I want a decent Det droid, I'll come see you. If I *have* to have a Det droid right now, I'll come see you. But if I just need a top-end Droid with an extra couple % medical bonus, or an extra couple item storage slots, etc...I'll find a Master specializing in custom work.
Shoot, what I just said brought to mind another problem that hearkens back to my first post on this...resources and credits.
The current Idustrialists are able to do what they do becuase they CAN. They have tens of millions of credits, they have tens of millions of resources, and they can spend anywhere from 20 RL minutes to 60 RL minutes ot produce THOUSANDS of droids. I say RL becuase although it takes 2 or 3 days for a factory to make components, YOU DONT HAVE TO BE THERE! You can be out fighting, dancing, grinding FS skills, or even spending quality time in the Real World. Whereas if you hand crafted items, you DO have to be there. *That* is the tradeoff. That is the balance.
So as long as resources continue to glut the game, and as long as people can make 2-3 million creds a night grinding Mokk missions, none of these changes will do jack. Instead, the Industrialists will keep running their factories, and while they are running "standard" goods by the hundrds, they will craft the "uber" stuff by hand. But at least they are spending RL time to make those uber items now.
Man, why cant the Combat Rebalance be here now? Its gonna change so much!
Daker-Naritus wrote:/signAudioOrgana wrote:
[Something REALLY well put...]
AO
Yes it was well put; however, Industrialist vs. Hand-Crafter in the BattleBot arena is not why we're here.
We are here to look at the COST vs REWARD of Hand Crafting.
(Correct me if I'm wrong TK)
Is it balanced?
If so, then what makes it balanced?
If not, then what why isn't it balanced, and what could make it balanced?
Edit: (Put in the correct me thingy)
Message Edited by Tarne_Monter on 09-10-2004 02:37 PM
ArveMennderchukk wrote:
Tarne, what are you talking about?
The person who creates a factory schematic *HAS* hand-crafted it.
To make a really good schematic takes all the top end resources and multiple failures of handcrafting, because it *is* handcrafting.
Once you've handcrafted a schematic you then need to assume a large degree of risk as you commit a significant portion of good resources to stockpiling a particular configuration.
The reward of handcrafting is preserving high value resources for the greatest number of possible applications (vertex crystalline gemstone for example)
I think you missed my minor point there.
Lets say out of 50 items you have a 10% failure rate.
So if you hand craft them then you will have 5 more that you have to make.
But if you make a schematic you might have 1 crit failure, but chances are after that you'll get a success and be fine.
And then have only wasted 1 set of resources.
Comprende?
Malitevv wrote:
Straker_Atrella wrote:
I simply don't understand where some people get the impression that new crafters do not have a chance. Maybe it is a server thing.
Yeah. I don't know where this impression comes from either....
This notion that a single master crafter of each profession is all it takes to supply an entire server also makes no sense to me also. If that were true it would always be easy to find exactly what you need?
There are lots of in-game factors alreadythat severely limit one players ability to supply an entire market. There is an Achitect on my server that has every-single Architect item for sale on several vendors. Every-single-item. From the lowliest bookcase to City Halls. Not just one, mind you, but ranging from a half dozen to *hundreds*. If anyone EVER needed ANYTHING from an Architect, they can get it there. He hasseveral accounts, and his family runs several more he has access to. That is what I'm talking about.
- access to resources - moot...lot-swap farms are everywhere...available to ALL the powergamers.
- maximum factory capacity moot - lot-swap factories gets you dozens of them out at a time. Also availabel to the powergamers
- limited marketing abilities - Word of mouth is wonderful. Eventually everyone hears of them.
Both 1 and 2 are limited by the fact that a player has 10 lots.(not counting multiple accounts and lot-swaps) 3 is something the developers have been working hard to improve recently (they added the auction channel and removed empty vendors from the world map). but 3 is of lesser importance, word ofmouth can eventually overtake your limited advertising option.
But 2 is very important because no matter how good you are and no matter how badly you want to craft 100's of every item in your schematic list, you are limited by the number of factories that you can run at one time.(/points up) This is why I pulled out of the BH droid market at one point during my career. It's because I didn't have enough lots to run enough factories to make as many BH droid's as people wanted to buy and I got sick of having an empty BH droid vendor.(supply and demand...if the demand is high, raise prices. It works wonders to keep a steady but manageable product flow) I've since gotten back into the BH droid market because I now share a few lots with my alt and that frees me up to set up another factory and still do mining.
Access to lots really is the fundamentatl issue if you are concerned about monopolies in my opinion (and I am not saying monopolies actually exist because I don't think that they do (Say "Market Domination" then..same thing)). Because quite frankly, a single player with only 10 lots just won't have the capacity to monopolize anything.(which is why they can NOT compete with the powergamers)Now, I share with a real account that I own, which gives me access to 20 lots. And that helps me significantly. But even at that capacity, I would have trouble monopoloizing my market if I tried to do so. I think I would need considerebly more access in-order to do that.
So, in short, if the reason for this sort of change is to address new crafter "access to the market" issues, and to address apparrent "monopolies". Then this is totally the wrong way to do it, in my opinion. Factories are not the issue. Access to lots is the issue.(and resourceand credit flow) Removing cross-server lot trades would be a big step in the direction of addressing that issue. (YES!) Changing the way factory crafting vs. hand crafting works would be a very tiny step and wouldn't change the overall situation much at all, unless they completely nerfed factories and made it so all factory crafted items were significantly sub-par. I suppose there might be a nice middle ground where factory made items are still pretty good (good enough for people to buy and use), but hand-crafted items are a little better (better enough to be worth making and buying, but not so good that equivalent factory items are useless).
Thats what I would like to see...the underlined part.
Um, I don't suppose we could get you to elaborate on that...
TheRealTK421 wrote:
Lots are....err....not going to stay the same down the line.
Yes, but your notion of where the middle ground lies if far too harsh in my opinion. In my opinion the difference between hand-crafted and not hand-crafted should be no more than a percent or two bonus to their best possible experimentation percentage (a +1 or +2 bonus to the best they can get from the resources they are using). From what you said previously, you seem to think that hand-crafted items should be significantly better. You said you want only hand-crafted items to have max item storage. You said you wanted only hand-crafted items to have max medical ratings. Etc. To that notion, I am whole heartedly oppossed. Thoseold modules don't even benefit from experimentation or quality at the current time.
LonelyGhost wrote:
I suppose there might be a nice middle ground where factory made items are still pretty good (good enough for people to buy and use), but hand-crafted items are a little better (better enough to be worth making and buying, but not so good that equivalent factory items are useless).
Thats what I would like to see...the underlined part.
- have the player pick whether or not he is making a schematic before he starts experimenting.
- when the experimentation window is set up, calculate the cap on experimentation for each experimentation bar as normal, but give the hand crafter a +N percent bonus to that cap. Personally I think N should probably be 0.5 and definitley no more than 1.0.
and that is it. don't change anything else. don't reward the hand-crafter with extra experimentation points and don't penalize theschematic-crafter bycapping his experimentation point. Just make it so thehand-crafter is able to extract slightly more benefit out of the resources he/she is using.
This would mean that the hand-crafter would be able to do N% better than the factory crafter on the stats of the final item. The other thing that is nice about this sort of proposal is that from a programming perspective, once such a thing is implemented, it should be very easy to adjust later by tweaking the value of N.
For that matter, if they are really clever the developers could make N a schematic specific item so in the future, they could control the rarity of high quality versions ofsome newly introduced schematicitem by tweaking the value of N. Because, to tell you the truth, any item that is significantly better when hand-crafted versus factory crafted will be rare. Aburgeoning demand cannot be supplied without the use of factories by any player who doesn't make the playing of this game a 40 hour a week job. Factories are what enable us to supply demand because they enable us to craft the items people are demanding while we are away doing our real RL jobs.