Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Fellow DE's: Forming a unified discussion on Combat Droids
I'm not interested in taking Droids into combat. What I am interested in is tinkering with the mentality programming and with the body design. I'd like to see a complete rework of droids that allow us to experiment on the programming to get droids with different personalities (even those which don't speak - R2-D2 definately had a personality, but didn't speak). The personalities could define the combat inclination, for one thing,of the droid. It should still need a combat module (weapons) installed, but droids can think for themselves, and our droids should reflect that.
I'd like to see experimental values like "Preservation of Sentient Life" "Self Preservation" "Friendliness", etc. Then if we wanted a high value in Self Preservation, we could use high quality materials. If we wanted a low value in Preservation of Sentient Life, we could use low quality materials.
I'd also like to see the bodies be composed of different pieces with different visuals. Depending on the droid type, there could be different legs and arms or domes. It would give the droids a unique look (remember C3P0 had one leg that was a different shade of gold - kind of a copper color).
you can make a golf cart into a combat vehicle with the right equipment. would it last against a tank? nope. is that the manufacturers fault? nope. can a droid be used in a fashion it wasnt intended too? yes. if you refer to episode II you will see a c3po unit with a different head type engage in combat, and also a c3po head on a combat droid body engage in combat. the usefulness of a droid in combat or noncombat is only limitied to the resourcefulness of its owner. if somone makes acombat repairdroid with 45 ham and 3 different colored body pieces and sends it to attack a krayt dragon.....have fun.
ASHRID wrote:
I've posted my thoughts in 2 other threads recently, however for the sake of completeness (and the fact that some may not have read those posts) I'll repeat it here (sorry if you've had to read my diatribes before)
I'm a vet from the SW RPG and I think they way droids were implimented there was perfect, as such I'm basically echoing that implimentation in SWG
As such 'security' droids shoot to stun (assuming the target is a sentient being), military droids (such as the Droideka and the battle droid) will shoot to kill but they are only available to the military (hence the name) and civilians owning them tends to reward a caught owner with to education in the joys of mining spice atthe Kessel resort... Assasin droids are just plain illegal (however that hasnt stopped them being made/used)
Just want to post a flaw in your discussion about droids, you make the assumption or lean towards the assumption that all players are civilians or worst case rebels. Many of us are indeed members of the military and as such would not be under the constrictions you impose.
If you're allegiance is one of anarchistic views, then you're views are more fitting.
One of the Bottom line goals the Devs have in regards to Everything is to get people more involved in the Civil War, this isn't the Sims in Space, it's Star Wars, specifically the War between the Rebels and the Forces of Good and Order, led by the Emporer and Lord Vader.
I dont see it as a flaw in my logic because, while players can join the empire they arent imperial troops in the sence that they dont take orders etc - the only way to make it work like that is to make military droids a faction perk (and as a DE I strongly disagree with that idea)
Salahsur wrote:
I don't see why a protocol droid couldn't be modified into a combatant. Just stick a gun on its arm and you have a shooter. Same deal with the surgical droid...
And a MSE would make an excellent mobile bomb. Pack it with a bunch of explosives and send it sneaking on in through the crowd - BOOM! A great assassination tool...
Look, Virtanis has a great point for the following reason:
Yes someone COULD modify a 3P0 to have a blaster. The question is: How common are combat-modified non-combatant droids in the Star Wars Universe? You NEVER see any in the movies, and only rarely in the books.
What the developers are doing is to make combat modified droids (3p0s, r2/3/4/5's, medical droids, etc.) common in game by giving current droids combat modules...everyone will have one. It also appears that they will be limiting the newhigh-powered combat chassis to DE's only.
Basically the devs are turning the whole droid universe on its head... Modified droids not intended for combat are common, droids specifically designed for combat rare and limited to DE's.This is exactly the opposite of what droids should be. This plan is just stupid, no matter what "I think I might remember a modified droid from somewhere" arguments you come up with.
ASRID says: "Daker but outside episodes 1&2 (i.e. the SWG timeframe when the empire is in power) combat droids arent common either!!!!!! (mainly because they arent legal for civilians to own)"
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I absolutely agree... Neither are grauls, rancors, and players owning a personal (quote)"Imperial Probe Droid" - Princess Leia.
But since this is a game based (very loosely, some might argue) on Episodes 4, 5, & 6; there are gives and takes. Purists hate the creature pet nonsense, but it's a MMORPG, so creature pets are (by default) in the game.
What I'm trying to do with discussion is to help give the Dev's a strong idea about what we'd like done with their (unavoidable?) plan. A modification.... a guideline set down by the DE community. I have childhood memories of a certainProtocol droid beingineffectual, foppish, squeamish, and definitely non-combattave. I personally would rather not see the Protocol droid turned into a war machine in this game. But, what about the BLL? What about the DZ70? What about the LE Repair chassis? These are much more nebulous chassis with no concrete notions (in my mind) about them being outfitted for combat or not. Certainly we could try to guide the Dev's hands towards these chassis and leave old poor R2 and 3PO alone!
I would be happy if we could hammer out a guideline (like I originally mentioned) about which droid might be combat-outfittable (is that a word?)and what droid chassis should never ever be able to be modified for combat. That's why I want everyone's feedback on this...
TheWoody Wrote:
I think this thread just became null and bunk. see link below
http://starwarsgalaxies.station.sony.com/content.jsp?page=In%20Concept
I really don't think they will limit which droids will be combat customizable, and again I must iterate that we really shouldn't limit what can be done. If we were limiting then LEs would be the only ones that could hold repair modules, Surgicals would be the only ones which could hold surgical modules, and MSEs could only hold datapad modules.
And speaking personally I really don't to go back to that mentality where certain droids for certain things. I do think certain droids should do things better than others (I don't expect a protocol to last as long in combat as a Droideka) but there's NO reason why they shouldn't be able to be fitted with weapons. It is just in real life with computers. While some people are happy with whatever features the computer can already do, there are others who love the thrill of getting them to do things they are not. I myself have built computers into my car, my kitchen, other computer types (see my old mac project thread), a suitcase, and several other things. This also doesn't mention the miscellaneous modules that I've built for my computers... MP3 controllers, sensors, custom controllers, etc. Would have been a real downer if, say, the cops came into my workshop and said "You can't build this because it's against what we feel to be the norms."
So, in closing, if you don't like the concept there is nothing stopping you from not using the new additions. But please don't try to inflict your personal limitations on others. Just because it may not be your vision of the Droid Engineer profession doesn't mean that it isn't what other people may or may not desire. If it truly is a bad idea then it just won't get used. But we shouldn't try and pass judgement on anything without trying it first and it never hurts to have it there anyway. It only hurts when we don't have anything (like we do now and have been complaining about... I.E. repair kits).
The Woody wrote: "And speaking personally I really don't to go back to that mentality where certain droids for certain things. I do think certain droids should do things better than others (I don't expect a protocol to last as long in combat as a Droideka) but there's NO reason why they shouldn't be able to be fitted with weapons. It is just in real life with computers. While some people are happy with whatever features the computer can already do, there are others who love the thrill of getting them to do things they are not. I myself have built computers into my car, my kitchen, other computer types (see my old mac project thread), a suitcase, and several other things. This also doesn't mention the miscellaneous modules that I've built for my computers... MP3 controllers, sensors, custom controllers, etc. Would have been a real downer if, say, the cops came into my workshop and said "You can't build this because it's against what we feel to be the norms."
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You're viewing our virtual, gameplay droids from a reality based technical perspective. And that's fine. I'm personally viewing droids from their Star Wars perspective,a perspective where 3PO gets blown to bits from single blaster bolts, R2's dome explodes after being hit by laser fire, the inherent design of their chassis show a complete lack of mobility, which whouldprohibit quick, tactical movement (necessary for combat droids, I'd imagine, unless Goldenrod wants to become a permanent resident), 3PO wallowing ineffectually in a pool of semi-melted wires, etc, etc, etc...
Woody continues:
"So, in closing, if you don't like the concept there is nothing stopping you from not using the new additions. But please don't try to inflict your personal limitations on others."
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That's an insulting statement, Woody. Time and time again through out this thread I've been doing nothing but asking for feedback, thoughts, comments, and tweaks from everyone. I am not laying down an edict, papal bull, or any other sort of declaration. I am not coming down from the mountain with a ruleset of how things should or shouldn't be. Read this thread again, Woody. In my beginning post I said I'd distill and summarize this thread once it's ran it's course, and I still intend to do so; including everyone's basic comments. The only time I ever made any kind of dictate on something was when this thread was on the verge of going tangential.
Maybe you ought to cease making your own personaldictates?!
Virtanis wrote:
I would be happy if we could hammer out a guideline (like I originally mentioned) about which droid might be combat-outfittable (is that a word?)and what droid chassis should never ever be able to be modified for combat. That's why I want everyone's feedback on this...
Never ever be able to be modified in combat sounds Sounds very much like you are putting a personal bias in this. I will never stand by when I see what appears to be someoen imposing limitations on the freedom of others with little to no sound reason. The only time I will ever speak out for the limitations of another's freedom is when there is clear damming evidence that the freedom is damaging to everyone in the game. But to base the argument on supposition and 'feeling' is hardly a grounds to limit the potential and enjoyment of others. That is the reason why I may appear insulting on this matter, and I am sorry for it.
TheWoody wrote:
I really don't think they will limit which droids will be combat customizable, and again I must iterate that we really shouldn't limit what can be done. If we were limiting then LEs would be the only ones that could hold repair modules, Surgicals would be the only ones which could hold surgical modules, and MSEs could only hold datapad modules.
This is EXACTLY what we SHOULD be asking for. Droid utility and sales = diversity of function. LEs SHOULD be the only ones that can hold repair modules. Medical droids SHOULD be the only healing droids. The only exception I see to this rule is data/item storage.
As a side note: I just thought of something and wanted to memorialize it before I forgot it... What if BLLs came standard with 50 to 100 units of item storage. An extra backpack if needed...we would sell tons...
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And speaking personally I really don't to go back to that mentality where certain droids for certain things. I do think certain droids should do things better than others (I don't expect a protocol to last as long in combat as a Droideka) but there's NO reason why they shouldn't be able to be fitted with weapons.
You mean other than the fact that it turns star wars into battle bots, and varies substantially from Star Wars Lore? How about if you give me one good reason (considering that devs are adding several new combat droid chassis) that these doids SHOULD be fitted with weapons?
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It is just in real life with computers. While some people are happy with whatever features the computer can already do, there are others who love the thrill of getting them to do things they are not. I myself have built computers into my car, my kitchen, other computer types (see my old mac project thread), a suitcase, and several other things. This also doesn't mention the miscellaneous modules that I've built for my computers... MP3 controllers, sensors, custom controllers, etc. Would have been a real downer if, say, the cops came into my workshop and said "You can't build this because it's against what we feel to be the norms."
Lol. Please do send a picture of your computers with equipped gun modules. I'd love to see it. Fact is, R2 and 3P0 droids are UTILITY droids, not combat. Using your analogy, the memory and processors used to make Cray super computers wouldn't fit or workon my home personal comupter. Modifications can happen, but can only go so far.
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So, in closing, if you don't like the concept there is nothing stopping you from not using the new additions. But please don't try to inflict your personal limitations on others. Just because it may not be your vision of the Droid Engineer profession doesn't mean that it isn't what other people may or may not desire. If it truly is a bad idea then it just won't get used. But we shouldn't try and pass judgement on anything without trying it first and it never hurts to have it there anyway. It only hurts when we don't have anything (like we do now and have been complaining about... I.E. repair kits).
Dude, I promise you that you are in the minority on this. Most DEs think it is dumb to put guns on non-combat droids. I may not use them, but that doesn't change the fact that 90% of 6 year olds will think guns are cool and I will have to see this ridiculous addition in my Star Wars Universeevery single day. You are instilling your personal liberalism (to the developers stupidity) to ruin the game atmosphere and immersiveness for the rest of us. Just because you are kissing the devs bootay doesn't mean what the devs are doing is best for the profession.
Theonly modivation you could have forsupporting this changewould be that of aCH wanna-be. Really, putting combat modules on droids that people already buy is not going to help sales any. So the only difference is the new DE combat power. If you are supporting this change so that you can have more power, even though other DEs are arking for more and better droids to sell, YOU are the one "inflicting your personal limitations." If you don't care about combat power, how could you possible support a change that does nothing for the profession other than turn us into CHs?
I ask you3 questions:
(1) What are the devs accomplishing by putting combat modules on non-combat droids?
(2) Are there other ways of accomplishing that end?
(3) Are any of those other ways less destructive to the star wars universe as we currently know it?
In case you need help, the answers to 2 and 3 are "Yes", and there is absolutely NO reason for the devs to be implementing an idea as stupid as "Droid Invasion!."
I don't think I've ever seen the DE community (especially the 'veterans' and purists) so equally divided on any one issue.
I'm of the mindset that there has to be some kind of compromises that can be made between adding combat modules to existing droids and using the "function follows chassis" debate.
It's that very topic that stopped me dead in the middle of working on the DE Focus Threads. That's how hard it was to find an answer that seemed to fit.
I see the point that Woody makes about allowing for flexibility and freedom of design and configuration. In a way, I agree with a lot of it. The clients I work with often have specific desires for their droid and sometimes it seems that no 2 people want the same thing.
On the other side, I see a HUGE bonus to being able to streamline droid production and cause less confusion for the clients. It makes a lot of sense to me that LEs are the only "repair" droids, R-series are the only "crafting" droids and so on. It makes buying/using a droid a ton easier for those players that admittedly know next to nothing about how to select/buy a droid.
Is there NO compromise or middle ground that we can suggest or get to?
I'd have to think that there is....it's just that no one has stumbled on to the right way to do it yet.
Thoughts? Comments? Interpretive Dev Bashing?
/bow
Respectfully,
RealTK says: "Is there NO compromise or middle ground that we can suggest or get to?"
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That's exactly what I'm trying to get at here. We need to try to find a middle ground between these two schools of thought. My suggestion was to do a chassis by chassis list of what we can try to agreeis non-combat, combat, and either/or.
TK says again: "On the other side, I see a HUGE bonus to being able to streamline droid production and cause less confusion for the clients. It makes a lot of sense to me that LEs are the only "repair" droids, R-series are the only "crafting" droids and so on. It makes buying/using a droid a ton easier for those players that admittedly know next to nothing about how to select/buy a droid."
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My discussion revolves more around which chassis can or can't be outfitted with these soon-to-be-implemented "combat" modules. These two points are cousins (innate abilities vs. innate non-combat categorization).This discussionmostly revolves around the latter.
RealTK continues: "Interpretive Dev Bashing?"
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Always!! 