Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Modular Droid idea
SquidiAMD wrote:
AudioOrgana wrote:
SquidiAMD -
Discussion is great. However, you are talking about an issue that has been examined at length many times in this forum; this is including a new round a month or so ago, and in great detail. You seem passingly famliar with those threads, and I'd suggest you start there and reply to those. You aren't going to get a decent discussion going by starting a new thread where people feel as if points have already been made and asking them to repeat themselves because you weren't convinced.
I'm not asking anybody to repeat themselves. I'm asking them to attack the problem from a different perspective. Modularizing droids is not the apocolypse by any stretch of the imagination. They did it with ships and I see all sorts of shipwrights out there doing fine.
That's just it. On "our" side, there is no problem to attack. If you feel a change is warranted that we do not, then it's your burden to prove.
As to ships, yes, they sure did do it with ships. A product that an entire paid expansion was based upon, and that have variables based on widely differing stats. It works for starships because, unlike droids, each component has several stats that are important and mixing and matching based on current need (lighter part, lighter damage, etc.). As implemented, droids do not need this kind of customization - no one will ever need to upgrade their Med 6 module because there is no point. Even those modules that do offer experimentation only have one stat that matters, so the net result is the same : starships have complexity that requires and benefits from modularity, and as of now droids do not. If you want to change the whole basis of the profession, that's a whole other ball of wax you would have to deal with first.
We should approach this discussion from the perspective that "YES, we can make modularizing work. Okay, how?" What would it take for YOU to be okay with the idea? You have a problem with X, Y, and Z? Okay, let's see how we can change the metaphor to fit. It's not the solution arrived at - it's the process. And we can come up with ideas and inspiration that would otherwise be difficult.
That's your opinion, one that obviously is not shared with others in this forum. You see, we don't want modularity because we have determined that based on previous proposals it isn't a sound idea. Until you give us a reason to want to make it work (i.e. explain to us how it would actually benefit and enrich our profession) by making your own proposal and in effect "selling us" on it, there is no incentive to say "YES we can make it work". You need to convince us, and coming in here, making your grand entrance on a post that really is just a "I read some of what you wrote and you are all wrong" without showing us something that is "right" isn't the way to do so.
There is no immediate denial, it's just that most of us after examining it on many levels see that it really would enrich nothing about the function of the profession.
Because, of course, you guys have already thought ofall the angles and no new input could possibly have any value or insight.
I said many levels, I did not say all levels. You are welcome to broaden that horizon - but you haven't, you simply have stated that we are wrong in an argumentative tone and that's just not the way to endear yourself to people whom you wish to have a discussion with. You came in here guns blazing...but with nothing to back yourself up. It just seems like you are looking for an argument. /shrug
For instance, you use as an example the "I don't wanna be a slot monkey" problem with modularity by saying there is a solution, yet you don't propose one.
Actually, I did. In the original proposal, I suggested a hybrid. The droid engineers still control a majority of the droid's final capabilities. They still make the chassis, the armor, and the possible slots. If you go by the suggestion that the abilities be pre-created, then the slots would be defined by that. For instance, we've got droids with modules X and Y - the slots for the plug-ins would be directly dependant on which modules were installed. You wouldn't have combat support modules without a previously installed combat module. We say, hey, this is a combat droid, but it can only use energy based weapons and only has one slot for tank/healer-specific combat support. We still control everything important. The player just gets to tweak it - and even then, we still get to make the stuff he tweaks it with. If anything, it is a logical extension of what already exists, as far as our involvement is concerned, rather than a flat out replacement.
You still can't give us a reason WHY. That sounds terribly complex to me for somethingwe don'tthink is good for our profession infirst place.It's great you are finally giving specifics, but (even if we had multi-damage types, which we do not) Idon't see the benefit this would provide. You need to sell us on the war before you start asking us to participate in the battles.
Those that *have* proposed things like that in the past have said users should be able to swap the modules and then we wouldn't be slot monkeys. Case closed? Not really, because doing so would give away all the power we have as DE's to custom configure our droids and our modules and chassis would become bazaar fodder - someone walks up to a bazaar terminal, orders themselves a chassis, some modules, and voilla - we've become a bazaar commodity like spices.
Why not be a hybrid? Why not still make droids expensive and requring the use of skilled DEs... but... why not also have components that could be bazaar commodities - especially for the lower level DEs which can't even hope to compete with Master DEs? The bazaar shouldn't be considered a dirty word.
As I said before (and here I am - got suckered into repeating myself, LOL) in those other discussions, this wouldn't help the newbies, it would make it WORSE for them. Why? Because as an industrial crafter with tons of resources and factories going 24/7, I could crank out endless modules of higher quality than a lesser-volume DE could dream. The huge benefit to lower-volume DE's is that they can handcraft to specifics (you won't find a data6/structure/repair droid on my vendors) making it a clear choice between big-industrialists and smaller hand-crafting outfits. Modularity would take that benefit away in any case.
If you are talking about lower-skilled DE's, then that's a whole other matter - a novice DE shouldn't be able to compete with a Master, otherwise there is no point to master. I'm sure you disagree with this - it seems like you disagree with a lot of the basics of crafting in SWG. Again, that's something much more complex than modularity.
There are dozens of examples of this that we have talked about at length in this forum, looking at modularity from all angles. You are asking for "what if", debate, etc., yet you are asking a crowd of people to have what can be a frustrating discussion again without adding anything concrete new to discuss, just rehashing the whole "wouldn't it be cool???" debate. Read those recent threads, absorb the discussion, and if you have something new to add by all means present it.
If the discussion is tiring, it's because you are running around in circles, constantly going over the same territory. I'm suggesting that we don't do that. Let's start with the premise that modularity could work and then think about how. You guys were dicussing the possibility of it working - I'm not.Even if you are dead set against the idea of modularity, you should still find it useful to argue FOR the idea every once in a while. Playing devil's advocate isn't about being a turd. It's about challenging yourself and others into thinking about an old problem in a new way.
Then go ahead. Challenge us. Come up with new ideas instead of just telling us we are wrong, and convince us you are right. Nothing wrong with playing devil's advocate, but arguing without a clear goal in mind is just argument for argument sake. I could argue that BMX bikes could be made to fly, but I'm not going to spend the time doing so unless I have some vested interest in it.
It's ironic that you think we are all so tightly knit, LOL, because someone like Jenden and I (though having a mutual professional respect) are about as far apart on the DE scale as one can get. I'm all for big business crafting and he prefers by-hand, I'm a credit-whore and he doesn't care about cash, and I only sell by vendor and (I believe) he only sells in-person. Yet, as you can see, we totally agree on this topic. That should tell you something. Seriously.
Those are two sides of the same coin. You disagree on minor issues, but you still approach the subject that crafters have to be merchants. You just have different opinions on how.
Then please, show us the other coin. The point of any crafting profession in this game is to create goods for other players. This is a very low-level design goal. If that's what you want to change, that is WAY beyond the scope of modularity.
Every scenario ends in us losing business and less droids getting made.
You guys haven't even scratched the surface of EVERY scenario.
Then again, I implore you - offer us one that doesn't. By it's very nature modularity would reduce the production of droids - the main reason people are repeat buyers is to get a different configuration. Allow people to configure after the fact and you have less droids sold.
This isn't a priority for you, you have made it clear - but as you can see it does to most of us DE's
But I'm a DE too. Doesn't my opinion matter? It seems to me that DEs are a rather selective bunch. I'd like to see the DE profession opened up so that more people could enjoy it. And don't think that you guys have a monopoly on wanting to be DEs. There are lots of people out there who want to be DEs but are immediately turned off by what's currently out there. You made a success out of what little is already there, but what's there isn't exactly a success.
Of course your opinion matters. However, if you want other people to side with your opinion, you have to sway them. You don't just get support for an idea or people interested in discussing it unless you bring something new to the table, which so far you have not. You need to give us a reason to discuss this again if you want people to be receptive to what you claim you'd like to share.
(in fact, didn't LA make a stand-alone game like that a few years back for kids??)
That was the now defunct Lucas Learning. DroidWorks was a puzzle game, like the Incredible Machine, where you used specific parts to solve very specific problems. Hardly the same thing.
:looks around for who said it was the same thing:
but we have to balance that with our role in this MMO.
Exactly.
Squidi, you are trying to tackle so many things at once I don't think you will have much success. You don't seem happy with the general crafting system in SWG, and tell us you speak for all these people that crafting (specificly DE) doesn't work for. That's great if you want to design a new system for you and them. It's not us you have to convince, it's the development team. You also don't seem to like many of us, or the DE community at large - and your way of presenting that fact amongst all this also won't help your cause.
Stop being concerned about why we believe what we do about modularity, or how you percieve us to be. Good ideas stand on their own, and if you can come up with some I know everyone would love to hear them. However, if you wish to continue attacking things without backing yourself up or trying to convince us that whatever ideas you have yet to share would benefit us, you will find the response just as you have gotten here. You can continue accusing us of various conspiracy theories and false motives, but it's really not going to get the discussion you want.
You've made 9 posts, and the majority of them have been negative and argumentative for the sake of it - if you are looking to have a constructive discussion, lashing at the people you wish to support you isn't the best route. Again, we'd all be happy to hear any new suggestions you have that are specific and you can demonstrate would be beneficial to us, but your disatisfaction with the profession (and, it seems, crafting in SWG on the whole) is a much larger issue than modularity. I'd suggest starting at the "core systems" forum for that type of low-level design discussion.
AO
Message Edited by AudioOrgana on 01-23-2005 03:22 AM
SquidiAMD wrote:
This metaphor isn't even appropriate.
TheRealTK421 wrote:
/pointsup
.....what he said.
/bow
Respectfully,
double ditto me and AO and straker and Drashk worked this subject over hard from every angle
in short what we mostly agreed on:
Modularitywould begreat toadd at some point for droids, however given all the things wrong with droids the general consensus is to wait on pushing something like this until we have more combat droids, more real solid selling itility functions and some kind of decay system. i outlined many ways why modular is highly desired but ultimatly the lack of dev time we will get relagates modularity to being a 4th on the list change. also even then many were flat against it for the fact it would commodify(aka make it so ppl dont can just plunk droid mods on the bazaar...) and make the value of droids rock bottom....i personally dont agree with that part but all the rest prior we agreed on.
Message Edited by Gron_DM on 01-23-2005 10:04 PM
Gron_DM wrote:
Modularitywould begreat toadd at some point for droids, however given all the things wrong with droids the general consensus is to wait on pushing something like this until we have more combat droids, more real solid selling itility functions and some kind of decay system. i outlined many ways why modular is highly desired but ultimatly the lack of dev time we will get relagates modularity to being a 4th on the list change. also even then many were flat against it for the fact it would commodify(aka make it so ppl dont can just plunk droid mods on the bazaar...) and make the value of droids rock bottom....i personally dont agree with that part but all the rest prior we agreed on.
Message Edited by Gron_DM on 01-23-2005 10:04 PM
There's multiple discussions going on, and people are getting confused and criss-crossing them.
The DE profression has some serious flaws right now that could be fixed with a few simple changes. However, that would merely patch a few holes. It wouldn't suddenly make droid engineering a popular profession, or droids anything like the ones in the movies. For many classes, droids aren't worth owning unless you've got money to burn. More combat droids and utility functions would be great - better than great - except combat droids are just variety and I haven't seen any utility module suggestions that will radically change the public's need for droids. Some of them are just fixes for bad game design (like the module which pays off maintenence) which could be made obsolete as the playerbase complains and the devs correct. I would encourage the devs to patch those holes first, but before they waste too many further resources on an innately flawed system, I'd like them to examine the possibilities from the ground up.
Many of you guys tackle the subject of being a DE from a capitalist perspective. You want droids to decay faster so that you can sell more droids. That's kind of like wanting toasters to break down after a set number of toasts - and you are the only person in town that sells toasters. You guys have a monopoly on droid creation, and you want to insert things which are purposely destructive to those who buy your product. I'm against any proposal which favorsgain by taking away somethingconsumersalready have and take for granted. If it isn't too invasive, then it probably isn't worth it. Before the devs decide to do this, I want them to give more weight to the opinions of all the other classes except DEs. There has got to be a way to solve this problem where we both win, and I'm not comfortable with the fact that the devs only hear from one very biased side on the subject. If I've taken a few, possibly unfair, pot shots at some of you, it's because it seems like you are more interested in lining your pockets and not with the improvement of the game, or the well being of your customers.
Some of you guys don't see the point in discussing a possibility which probably won't happen. I've addressed this. I don't care. It doesn't make the discussion worthless. Already, thinking of the possibilities a modular system would have, I've had some inspiration for another project I've been working on. I firmly believe that discussing the possibilities of different systems (I'd even like to discuss player droids, even though that will never happen) will show insight into other, perhaps hidden, flaws in the DE system. Maybe even stuff that has been sitting under everyone else's noses for a long time and never been noticed, yet would be simple to correct. You can approach problems too narrow mindedly and miss a lot of stuff. Thinking outside the box, even when not obviously practical, is always illuminating. I'm not suggesting modularity is a silver bullet - I'm suggesting that the process trying to make modularity a silver bullet may make other problems more obvious.
And while I'm probably one of the least "capitalists" of the DE's out there, I will point out that making things that you know will break down is a very common thing in the real world. About 20-30 years ago manufacturers produced very solid, reliable products. Then, they realized that if their microwave (or whatever) will last someone 40 years, they're essentially cutting off their own foot. Now they make them cheaper so they don't last as long (and therefor people need to buy them more often, keeping said business alive longer).
TheRealTK421 wrote:Modularity = Bad (time consuming, less droids sold, turns DEs from crafters into 'servicemen')
Decay == Good
Let focus remain where focus is most required.
/bow
Must disagree with the first part. Modularity would give us a mini-game for new and casual DEs that we are sorely lacking.
Must agree with the second part. Need Decay, or some way of promoting more market.
Must strongly disagree with focus. We're a loooong way way from any major dev time (Please let me be wrong! Please!) Focus is not going to accomplish anything but dead boards and boredom. Lets go back to brainstorming and Project Droid Engineer. When it sounds like its time for some DE loving then lets work on focus.
First of all, I am not one of the well know and highly respected DEs in the forum, they have allready debated this subject. But I am a mater DE, and I figure I will pitch in my two cents.
Squid is of the opinion that his original post is being ignored, so I'll go over it, My remarks are in Red.
SquidiAMD wrote:
Forgive me if this is a subject which has been gone over a lot, It has, but I am willing to forgive it. but I'm rather new to the forums and I'm still feeling my way around. I did see some posts on the subject, and it seemed like a lot of you guys seem to be against the idea of a modular droid system (like the starships)Allot of us are, but we are against it for a variety of reasons. However, I've been wracking my brain over how to make droids an integral and interesting part of SWG.MetooRight now, they aren't - and I think you guys all know this deep down. Nearly all of the functions that droids have are optional or at the very least, hardly interesting.I find many of them unique and facsinating, and yes some are dull and boring, but I thinkyour perception is based largely on the fact that you can not see my build list, and see what a droid is truly capable of. I can buld a droid that will payyour bills, kill andskin nunas,cure Dizzy (with the right stimpack)help you fly an X-wing, and help out when you are cooking in the kitchen.And that is just one of thousands of possible combination. Personally, I think droids have the potential to be the best part of SWG. Modularizing droids is pretty much the best way to get players attached to their droid and make the actual ownership of droids any fun. But we can't do it like the ships. I don't think anyone wants to make just parts that someone else puts together. So, I've come up with a rather interesting solution.
What happens is that we design the droid chassis, along with the armor rating, and item/data inventory space.Currently these are defined by Modules installed, just so you know.All this together puts constraints on how many slots the droid can have. More armor, less slots. These slots would be specific to certain types of components. Here's the special part. DEs should be able to decide what the slots have. If you craft a chassis, you should be able to say that slot 0 is for a weapon component, slot 1 is for a personality chip, and so on. By limiting the way in which droids can be put together later, and allowing us some degree of control over how, we've essentially made our portion of the crafting process important. After reading this carefully, I would point out that currently, our part of the crafting is all important as the droid won't be built if we don't do it. Second thing that occurs to me (thanks to a heavy background in electronics and computers) more possible combinations means more server load, probably not allot more, but enough that it would be considered by the devs.
To add to this system, you need to add in the service part of DEs. In short, certain types of slots require the work of a DE to install a new part. For instance, weapons are a tricky component to upgrade. You need someone trained in the technical art of droid engineering to do it, or it will explode in your face. The more powerful the weapon, the more powerful the DE required to install it. Let's take it a step further by saying that ANY component installed by a DE will yield a better result than that installed by a layman. Everybody can switch out components, but DEs can defrag their harddrives to make them work better. I personally don't know how rewarding I would find this, I get a real kick out of seeing a droid turn out really well, and I may get that from this system too, but I don't know. I do know allot of people have allready voiced concern over becoming "service men". you used the phrase "add in the service part of DEs" I can tell you, right now all the service in my shop is handled by my droid Goose and my droid Sparky, I am a master Droid engineer, I don't do simple repairs.
Finally, we need a distinction between core modules and support modules. There is, general and combat, but I'll read on A weapon is a core module. For instance, you can select between several different types (cold, energy, fire?) andsizes for weapons. A weapon support module would be something that makes a small but generous difference to the equipped weapon. For instance, installing an Energy Capacitor increases firing speed by 5%. Another support module could increase critical hits or perhaps increase damage with a higher percentage of the droid breaking down (requiring a DE to fix it). Not only would DEs be able to create these modules, but you could also loot them off destroyed droids - creating the same sort of character building interest as finding a Frost Sword with +5 str. It doesn't have to be just combat either. Why not have support modules which increase the assembly or experimentation points for different items? Or different special effects that entertainers can load up and use? Why make droids a build it an forget it when we can augment the design with small, but interesting flourishes? Why couldn't similarloot dropshappen now? I would gladycustom build a droid to house a looted combat moduleIt will make the players intimately familiar with their droids, and more importantly, give them a reason to care about them Reminded me of a dancer that sent me a /tell, because some one was /slap-ing and /spit-ing her R5, she was really quite upsetand she was very upset when I told her I could not redeed the droid, the only way to get it out of her data pad was to delete it, or pass it on to some one else (I think she still has it). Never underestimate the need for personal attachment - droids shouldn't be things that are used. They should be constant companions. I agree up to a point, Goose is quite frankly my right had man, errr droid, most of my blue prints are done on his crafting station, he is the droid of chooice in my fighter, etc. how ever he is not a constant companion, in part because he is valuable, I never have him out when I feel there is any risk of him being damaged, for instance. But I see your point, and concede that personal attachment to droids is a good thing for our proffesion.
If we increase and maintain the connection between DEs and droids, then DEs will have more opportunities for profit. First, introduce me to the armorsmith, and weaponsmith that rely solely on repair to stay in business, too many player have a throw away eonomy mentality, and it is likel to take more than an easilyreplacable droid to over come that Think of it as just as much as a service as a merchantile profession. If we increase the player's personal connection with his droid by reinforcing that it exists through constant experimentation, the popularity of droids will increase as well. The only real problem is basically starting over with the profession, but I don't see how we can avoid it. Going with a support module approach at least gives the devs an opportunity to easily add in more DE content without requiring a hefty load of work. Expecting the devs to add content... I will stop there on that one
The reason why DEs have gotten so much attention from the devs is because nobody has quite figured out where they fit. True, but I think it is because in a galaxy far, far away, a really long time ago (or however it went) people grew up with droids,when Owen Lars walked out to the Jawa Sand Crawler, both he and Luke knew what the were looking for, and what to expect. People in this game don't have any really idea what to expect from a droid, I remember one occaison, back when I was still just a brand new novice, I was broke, but needed medical attention some thing fierce, so Ioffered the medic aMSE medical droid by way of payment, she was surpirsed that it actually had a function, because her first droid had no modules, so she assumed droid were just for decoration (she named the MSE Hoover, cause it looked like a dust buster)You can't think of Star Wars without thinking about droids - yet they feel like a half assed afterthought. True again It's not for lack of trying. I can feel the dev's frustration with them. You know it is just gnawing away at them that they don't work. Most of the other classes are merely flawed, but DEs are fundamentally unsound. I think that if we can find an exciting and interesting solution to that problem, the dev's will find a way to make time for it. I've worked in software development, and I know that there are things that need to be done and things that you are personally interested in seeing come to life. If we play our cards right, we can make DEs both.
(For the record, I think that most of the crafting professions would benefit from similar systems. But then, I've always been a LEGO Maniac...)
Okay, Now I have gone through your propossal and considered each item, I let a few slip by, cause I thought I could address them better here:
Currently I make credit off three people (I know I sound like a capitalist pig, but if I didn't make credits from doing it, why would I be a droid engineer, there are several professions that are less time consuming and get much bigger mission payouts, my in game in come comes from droids, I don't care if you think I am an evil merchant, droid engineering is my characters livelihood, umm getting back on track)
Currently I make credits off of three people:
New droid sales - people buying their first droid, a new drod to compliment other droids they have (dancers some time like to have a droid "body guard" while traveling)
Replacement droids - these are strictly droids used in some sort of combat, as currently they are the only droids that have any sort of decay.
Droid upgrades - these are droids that are being bought because the original is no longer useful to the owner, they need a droid with more memory, or a droid with a food crafting station, some thing like that.
Any sort of modular system would severally impact my sales to this last market, granted, I would still be expected to supply modules (from time to time) but the money to be made off a complete new droid, even with my modest prices, would prevent me from trying to market modules any way, I would prefer to make a decent amount of money on upgraded droids, than a mere pitance on modules, and what ever tips I can get from upgraded existing droids.
What's more, I don't really want DE to become to attractive or vital. Let me give you a second to consider that statement. The Uber warrior class has deemed the "Mind" stats as the all important combat stat, these stats are buffed by dancers, and Musicians. Walk into any cantina on my server and find a dancer that is both at the keyboard and happy about his/her lot in life and I will give you a cookie. Entertainers became too important, and too hard to find, and poof every guild has a buff bot entertainer, and the cantina's are full of them, those entertainers that are trying to play there character are having a heck of a time making ends meet, because the Buff bots are cheap and every where.
Quite frankly, I don't want my guildies to think of me as the droid service bot. And I don't want a sudden flood of competition because we are too hard to find.
Now, two things in your post I like:
I like the idea of Droid upgrade tapes, at least that is how I read it, Tailors build item that can have an attachment added to improve it, And I have no objection to some thing similar for droids, allthough I would prefer it be largly influance by other crafters. For instance a master Armorsmith is a true expert in protection and the materials that are in volved, I would whole heartedly agree with giving them the ability to craft "Droid attachments" that would increase the droids resistances to specific damages. Similary Weaponsmiths could improve the droid's weapons, doctors perhaps could improve there droid medical rating, architects could improve crafting station modules, I think that idea has certain benefits, and relatively few flaws (some one will point out how I am wrong about that, but I am open to enlightenment)
You other gem in this post is different types of "weapons" I think it truly bizarre that if I put a combat module in a R3, it shoots lightning, and get a cool little buzz saw. But I put the same module into an Le Repair droid he becomes some sort of drunken boxer. No lightning, or weapon. So I wouldn't mind seeing a variety of combat modules, perhaps not exactly as you describe, but a little variety would be nice.
Edited for spelling, and I added this:
Re reading the post, I occured to me, that many ship wrights complain that lotted parts exceed the quality of parts they can readily build, making there ship component market extremely limited, I do dabble in Ship wright a little, and mostly I sell ship chassis (upgrades usually, perhaps the occasional replacement as they do degrade, unlike droids), parts that don't appear as loot, such as misslie and missile launchers, and parts I myself looted. It is truly rare to sell a ship component I built. If the loot you propose were implemented as good as you make it sound, we would not only get hit in the upgrade droid market, but also in the component market your proposal would create.
Message Edited by Qlint on 01-25-2005 07:34 AM
Message Edited by snoman321 on 01-27-2005 11:11 AM