Droid Engineer Archive

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AudioOrgana wrote:

...you really should take it as a sign that so many people who disagree on so many things agree on this one. It's actually kind of creepy, if you knew us well.

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Jenden wrote:
I almost thought the world was comming to an end when me, straker, and AO all agreed on a major discussion... Isn't that the third sign of of the apocolypse?

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TheRealTK421 wrote:

No...I think both Sintrosi and TheWoody have to return and agree with said point for that to occur.


/bow

Respectfully,

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AudioOrgana wrote:
SquidiAMD -

Discussion is great. However, you are talking about an issue that has been examined at length many times in this forum; this is including a new round a month or so ago, and in great detail. You seem passingly famliar with those threads, and I'd suggest you start there and reply to those. You aren't going to get a decent discussion going by starting a new thread where people feel as if points have already been made and asking them to repeat themselves because you weren't convinced.

I'm not asking anybody to repeat themselves. I'm asking them to attack the problem from a different perspective. Modularizing droids is not the apocolypse by any stretch of the imagination. They did it with ships and I see all sorts of shipwrights out there doing fine. We should approach this discussion from the perspective that "YES, we can make modularizing work. Okay, how?" What would it take for YOU to be okay with the idea? You have a problem with X, Y, and Z? Okay, let's see how we can change the metaphor to fit. It's not the solution arrived at - it's the process. And we can come up with ideas and inspiration that would otherwise be difficult.

There is no immediate denial, it's just that most of us after examining it on many levels see that it really would enrich nothing about the function of the profession.

Because, of course, you guys have already thought ofall the angles and no new input could possibly have any value or insight.

For instance, you use as an example the "I don't wanna be a slot monkey" problem with modularity by saying there is a solution, yet you don't propose one.

Actually, I did. In the original proposal, I suggested a hybrid. The droid engineers still control a majority of the droid's final capabilities. They still make the chassis, the armor, and the possible slots. If you go by the suggestion that the abilities be pre-created, then the slots would be defined by that. For instance, we've got droids with modules X and Y - the slots for the plug-ins would be directly dependant on which modules were installed. You wouldn't have combat support modules without a previously installed combat module. We say, hey, this is a combat droid, but it can only use energy based weapons and only has one slot for tank/healer-specific combat support. We still control everything important. The player just gets to tweak it - and even then, we still get to make the stuff he tweaks it with. If anything, it is a logical extension of what already exists, as far as our involvement is concerned, rather than a flat out replacement.

Those that *have* proposed things like that in the past have said users should be able to swap the modules and then we wouldn't be slot monkeys. Case closed? Not really, because doing so would give away all the power we have as DE's to custom configure our droids and our modules and chassis would become bazaar fodder - someone walks up to a bazaar terminal, orders themselves a chassis, some modules, and voilla - we've become a bazaar commodity like spices.

Why not be a hybrid? Why not still make droids expensive and requring the use of skilled DEs... but... why not also have components that could be bazaar commodities - especially for the lower level DEs which can't even hope to compete with Master DEs? The bazaar shouldn't be considered a dirty word.

There are dozens of examples of this that we have talked about at length in this forum, looking at modularity from all angles. You are asking for "what if", debate, etc., yet you are asking a crowd of people to have what can be a frustrating discussion again without adding anything concrete new to discuss, just rehashing the whole "wouldn't it be cool???" debate. Read those recent threads, absorb the discussion, and if you have something new to add by all means present it.

If the discussion is tiring, it's because you are running around in circles, constantly going over the same territory. I'm suggesting that we don't do that. Let's start with the premise that modularity could work and then think about how. You guys were dicussing the possibility of it working - I'm not.Even if you are dead set against the idea of modularity, you should still find it useful to argue FOR the idea every once in a while. Playing devil's advocate isn't about being a turd. It's about challenging yourself and others into thinking about an old problem in a new way.

It's ironic that you think we are all so tightly knit, LOL, because someone like Jenden and I (though having a mutual professional respect) are about as far apart on the DE scale as one can get. I'm all for big business crafting and he prefers by-hand, I'm a credit-whore and he doesn't care about cash, and I only sell by vendor and (I believe) he only sells in-person. Yet, as you can see, we totally agree on this topic. That should tell you something. Seriously.

Those are two sides of the same coin. You disagree on minor issues, but you still approach the subject that crafters have to be merchants. You just have different opinions on how.

Every scenario ends in us losing business and less droids getting made.

You guys haven't even scratched the surface of EVERY scenario.

This isn't a priority for you, you have made it clear - but as you can see it does to most of us DE's

But I'm a DE too. Doesn't my opinion matter? It seems to me that DEs are a rather selective bunch. I'd like to see the DE profession opened up so that more people could enjoy it. And don't think that you guys have a monopoly on wanting to be DEs. There are lots of people out there who want to be DEs but are immediately turned off by what's currently out there. You made a success out of what little is already there, but what's there isn't exactly a success.

(in fact, didn't LA make a stand-alone game like that a few years back for kids??)

That was the now defunct Lucas Learning. DroidWorks was a puzzle game, like the Incredible Machine, where you used specific parts to solve very specific problems. Hardly the same thing.

but we have to balance that with our role in this MMO.

Exactly.

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SquidiAMD wrote:

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AudioOrgana wrote:
SquidiAMD -

Discussion is great. However, you are talking about an issue that has been examined at length many times in this forum; this is including a new round a month or so ago, and in great detail. You seem passingly famliar with those threads, and I'd suggest you start there and reply to those. You aren't going to get a decent discussion going by starting a new thread where people feel as if points have already been made and asking them to repeat themselves because you weren't convinced.

I'm not asking anybody to repeat themselves. I'm asking them to attack the problem from a different perspective. Modularizing droids is not the apocolypse by any stretch of the imagination. They did it with ships and I see all sorts of shipwrights out there doing fine. We should approach this discussion from the perspective that "YES, we can make modularizing work. Okay, how?" What would it take for YOU to be okay with the idea? You have a problem with X, Y, and Z? Okay, let's see how we can change the metaphor to fit. It's not the solution arrived at - it's the process. And we can come up with ideas and inspiration that would otherwise be difficult.

If you truly read the other posts you would see why comparing DE to ships is not a logical comparison. Ship parts each have an inherent need and function, the different droid parts are not the same thing. They are simpyl not the same thing.

I think you misunderstand, if we put out minds together we COULD come up with an idea to make modularity work. What you don't seem to understand is that we simply don't think it is worth the trouble. This isn't Star Wars Droid Engineer, it's Star Wars Galaxies, there are many other professions that need a lot more work then we do, plus a bad need for content. Odds are pretty good that we may only see one more big Droid improvement. You seem to think that improvement should be modularity. Others of us think it should be Decay or newer Droid models.

Modularity could be made to work, but it would require so much work and coding time that it wouldn't be worth it. Plus nobody has ever sown any proof at all that modularity would actually make the DE profession better not worse.

There is no immediate denial, it's just that most of us after examining it on many levels see that it really would enrich nothing about the function of the profession.

Because, of course, you guys have already thought ofall the angles and no new input could possibly have any value or insight.

Nope, there is alwyas stuff that we have missed. Yet if you think that we missed idea, think of them and bring them up. You demanding that we rethink things and look at stuff from another angle isn't going to make us like the idea any more.

For instance, you use as an example the "I don't wanna be a slot monkey" problem with modularity by saying there is a solution, yet you don't propose one.

Actually, I did. In the original proposal, I suggested a hybrid. The droid engineers still control a majority of the droid's final capabilities. They still make the chassis, the armor, and the possible slots. If you go by the suggestion that the abilities be pre-created, then the slots would be defined by that. For instance, we've got droids with modules X and Y - the slots for the plug-ins would be directly dependant on which modules were installed. You wouldn't have combat support modules without a previously installed combat module. We say, hey, this is a combat droid, but it can only use energy based weapons and only has one slot for tank/healer-specific combat support. We still control everything important. The player just gets to tweak it - and even then, we still get to make the stuff he tweaks it with. If anything, it is a logical extension of what already exists, as far as our involvement is concerned, rather than a flat out replacement.

Again, how does this address the problems that we currently have to justify all the coding time?

Those that *have* proposed things like that in the past have said users should be able to swap the modules and then we wouldn't be slot monkeys. Case closed? Not really, because doing so would give away all the power we have as DE's to custom configure our droids and our modules and chassis would become bazaar fodder - someone walks up to a bazaar terminal, orders themselves a chassis, some modules, and voilla - we've become a bazaar commodity like spices.

Why not be a hybrid? Why not still make droids expensive and requring the use of skilled DEs... but... why not also have components that could be bazaar commodities - especially for the lower level DEs which can't even hope to compete with Master DEs? The bazaar shouldn't be considered a dirty word.

Because by simply saying "keep droid expensive" wont make that happen. If you make Droids sold in pieces parts, the prices for those parts will drop and drop and keep dropping.

There are dozens of examples of this that we have talked about at length in this forum, looking at modularity from all angles. You are asking for "what if", debate, etc., yet you are asking a crowd of people to have what can be a frustrating discussion again without adding anything concrete new to discuss, just rehashing the whole "wouldn't it be cool???" debate. Read those recent threads, absorb the discussion, and if you have something new to add by all means present it.

If the discussion is tiring, it's because you are running around in circles, constantly going over the same territory. I'm suggesting that we don't do that. Let's start with the premise that modularity could work and then think about how. You guys were dicussing the possibility of it working - I'm not.Even if you are dead set against the idea of modularity, you should still find it useful to argue FOR the idea every once in a while. Playing devil's advocate isn't about being a turd. It's about challenging yourself and others into thinking about an old problem in a new way.

Why? I don't like modularity, I don't think it will make anything better for DE's, in fact I htink it would hurt us more then help. There is no reason for me to argue for an idea I don't like. I'll leave that to the people who like the idea. I would far rather focus my energy on a solution that will make things better.

It's ironic that you think we are all so tightly knit, LOL, because someone like Jenden and I (though having a mutual professional respect) are about as far apart on the DE scale as one can get. I'm all for big business crafting and he prefers by-hand, I'm a credit-whore and he doesn't care about cash, and I only sell by vendor and (I believe) he only sells in-person. Yet, as you can see, we totally agree on this topic. That should tell you something. Seriously.

Those are two sides of the same coin. You disagree on minor issues, but you still approach the subject that crafters have to be merchants. You just have different opinions on how.

Crafters make products for customers. Those products can be given or sold, yet we are still crafters. You seem to want to make Droids again into something "more," yet don't explain what that is. Droids are a prduct.

Every scenario ends in us losing business and less droids getting made.

You guys haven't even scratched the surface of EVERY scenario.

Then prove us wrong.

This isn't a priority for you, you have made it clear - but as you can see it does to most of us DE's

But I'm a DE too. Doesn't my opinion matter? It seems to me that DEs are a rather selective bunch. I'd like to see the DE profession opened up so that more people could enjoy it. And don't think that you guys have a monopoly on wanting to be DEs. There are lots of people out there who want to be DEs but are immediately turned off by what's currently out there. You made a success out of what little is already there, but what's there isn't exactly a success.

Obviously your opinion matters or we wouldn't have responded to your thread. Yet it's easier to blame some deep DE conspiracy then to maybe think that we just don't like the idea.

I see new DE's all the time, many of them are very happy with it, just like we are. Just because you are not happy with it, does not mean it's time to change everything so you are.

(in fact, didn't LA make a stand-alone game like that a few years back for kids??)

That was the now defunct Lucas Learning. DroidWorks was a puzzle game, like the Incredible Machine, where you used specific parts to solve very specific problems. Hardly the same thing.

but we have to balance that with our role in this MMO.

Exactly.

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Jenden wrote:
again, argue that our thoughts may be flawed all day long, but until you show some concrete way that modularity will improve the profession there isn't an argument.

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It's not that the thoughts are flawed, but that they are narrowly focused. Some think that because they developers PROBABLY won't do it means that it is a waste of time to entertain it. I don't know about you guys, but I've had many, many times when the search for one solution shines light on another problem. Looking at DEs from different perspectives can only broaden our approach to making them better. Even if they were the best class in the game and everybody praised them high and low (and I assure you, it isn't and they don't), we would still benefit from some healthy devil's advocating.

The inherant flaw in droids is that they aren't, by nature, once crafted items. This metaphor isn't even appropriate. Simple items, like swords or shirts, are. When they break down, you replace them. They don't have many moving parts, and thus most untrained people can "use" them as if they were one function items. You don't do anything with a gun except shoot people. You don't do anything with armor except wear it. As we move up the complexity scale, this metaphor breaks down. For instance, I don't just use my television to watch tv. I play console games on it. I have a DVD player which puts pre-recorded images on the screen. As things progress in complexity and price, they can no longer be a one use item. This is partly because nobody would pay $200 for a toaster, but a toaster oven does bagels too.

It's also because an increase incomplexity causes an increase in things that can go wrong. It requires maintence. You don't throw out your entire entertainment center because the dvd player won't play a single dvd. You replace the DVD. If my harddrive crashes, I don't throw away my monitor. I do what I can to salvage it - because I am experienced with the technical aspects of computers, I can do quite a bit of it myself. However, there are still problems that only a specialist can solve. Even then, in a worst case scenario, I merely replace the harddrive. If the entire computer is out of date, then I'll upgrade - but even then, I'll probably keep my monitor, keyboard, and mouse (and all the software that was installed).

Droids are far more complex than computers. They have the logical aspects and the mechanical aspects. A programmer isn't exactly a technician, or vice versa. Creating unchanging droids is like an iMac. There are people who prefer not to think about the choices, but there are a lot of people who find it frustrating that they are limited. I'm suggesting modularity because it does the metaphor of a complex machine better, and it allows the player to decide his own involvement in their well being. Some people will buy mass created, off the shelf droids - but I promise you that a lot of people would also seek to tweak their droids as well, functionally and visually. I'm not suggesting that we put spoilers and flame decals on a droid, but I am suggesting that droids are supposed to represent complex machines that are capable of multiple functions.

Another problem is that droids are innately uninteresting. They are little more than pistols. We have control over what kind of pistol they are, but they are just things. In the movies, they were things that people had a personal connection to. I had sheet covers with R2D2 and C3P0 on them from Empire Strikes Back. There is something there which we connect with. That connection doesn't have a one to one correspondence with any gameplay function - but don't think that it doesn't matter. There is a certain thrill to pulling out an R2 unit and having it follow you around. Until you realize that it isn't something that needs to be out at all times. Then you stick it into your datapad until you need it again. These things might as well be inventory items.

A modular system makes the connection between the player and his droid stronger. It reminds the player that the droid exists. He finds a new component, and even if he doesn't install it, it still reminds him that he has a droid. Tinkering with his droid, installing and switching around modules, will increase the amount of "face time" he has interfacing with it. It will create a personal connection because it will make the droid his, more so than merely owning it. He maintains it. He updates it. It's a pet project. It's personal. It's not a thing. Giving people something that they can involve themself with doesn't reduce business. It will increase it. Right now, we create toasters. People buy one toaster and that's it. If we were to create something that players could sink their teeth into, they'd buy more than one just because they'd want (if not exactly need) more than one. I'm not suggesting giving the player the ability to be a DE without the training. Only that he can further tweak what we do.

If you were to try and sell a computer which you couldn't upgrade, which you couldn't install any programs on, which had to be replaced after you used it - well... would you buy it? No, of course not. But you would sure as hell sell it, because that's how you make money. The only problem is, SWG citizens don't have they choice. You have a monopoly on the things they can buy, so naturally, you'd want what's best for you - and they have no way of speaking up for themselves on the issue or taking another choice. I don't want you guys to be so narrow minded on droids because I don't want the devs to only give credit to a single, selfish viewpoint. So what if you make less money, if it makes a better, more StarWarsy game? If it makes DE into a crafting class which draws more people with a higher satisfaction? If it opens up more choices and more variety for you as a crafter? The measure of success for each choice shouldn't just be whether it makes you (more) money or not.

Squid,

3 of the DE profession's most respected and venerable players have been here...trying to help you (though you may not see it that way). I don't count myself...I'm just a silly Wookiee.


We don't mean to be argumentative, even though you may perceive it that way. You must remember that we've all been down this road before, several times in fact, and have gotten to a level where something truly unique and impactful would have to be suggested for many of us to sit up and take notice. And, it can't just be in the realm of theory or "Gee! Wouldn't it be nice?!?!". There has to be an actual detailed (or semi-detailed) protocol or system laid out that went a lot farther than hypotheticals.

This would be the case no matter who was doing the suggesting.


As stated above, if you have read some of the past discussions on this issue, you'll see that it was batted around quite a bit (by the best, long-time and most successful MDEs the game has)....and the consensus was that it would be bad for the profession. If you have some paradigm on that idea that is fresh and would address the concerns leading to that conclusion, by all means.....

We should discuss them.

I think you'll find the DE community more than receptive to work on such proposals with you. But, bear in mind that you're hardly the first (and surely not the last) to bring such an idea.


What I would urge you to keep in mind (if you have some kind of issue with the DEs that have been trying to help) is that we are a tight-knit community...perhaps the most so out of all the SWG Profession communities.That doesn't mean we're exclusionary...far from it. We tend to be quite inclusive. But, we have high standards.

However, it would be in your best interests to change your perception of the replies you've gotten so far to understand that the people who've been responding are among the DE profession's "A-Team". You should be taking their comments to heart and heeding their words as 'mentoring', so to speak.


To help you out a bit, try this:

• Modulatiry design is a choice a DE and/or client can choose.


• Modularity design is tied to a decay system (both for modules installed and for droid chassis)


• Modularity (a 'reward') comes at some kind of risk (i.e. "Your attempt to alter the droid's design failed and your droid no longer responds to commands"...this means, you gotta destroy it and build a new one anyway).


• Modularity is, in some manner, tied to the 'quality' (read: practical functionality) of the droid.


• Modularity would have a workable price model, including resources, factory use, etc.

No one here is trying to 'shut the door in your face' on this idea. But, we've seen a lot of door-to-door salesman in our past. If you wanna knock on this door, it's advisable to have your sales pitch down cold and make it an offer we can't refuse to find compelling.



/bow

Respectfully,

Message Edited by TheRealTK421 on 01-23-2005 07:45 AM