Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: The initial Summit report (quick version)...
TheRealTK421 wrote:Oh...and, just to point something out...
Helstrum wrote:
Part of what I was trying to get at earlier, TK, is that you actually have it good right now vs. the rest of us.
I hope you all know me enough to know that I don't like not being able to share yet. Why would you state something like that just makes me feel worse about it?
That's not cool, man. I want to get the info out just as much YOU all want me to...just cut me some slack, okay?
/bow
Respectfully,
People are always going to complain, TK.
Yer doin' fine.
TheRealTK421 wrote:
Oh...and, just to point something out...
Helstrum wrote:
Part of what I was trying to get at earlier, TK, is that you actually have it good right now vs. the rest of us.
I hope you all know me enough to know that I don't like not being able to share yet. Why would you state something like that just makes me feel worse about it?
That's not cool, man. I want to get the info out just as much YOU all want me to...just cut me some slack, okay?
/bow
Respectfully,
Message Edited by ResourceMonkey on 08-30-2004 12:18 PM
/bow
ResourceMonkey wrote:
I don't know if his intent was vicious, TK.
If that is indeed the case and I misread his intend, I apologize emphatically for making that assumption (and will summarily beat myself about the head with an Adv. Droid Brain).
What he was stating is that you can look at the upcoming changes with a big grin because you have seen first hand what is in the works (For example and NOT rumored anywhere - we are giving out Droidikas in December!).
I think I can safely state that DL20+ combat droids are not in any way on the table at this time in relation to topics covered at the Summit. That is an entirely separate 'action item' for the future.
The thing is that we, the general public don't know this info. So by you having witnessed this, you have it better than those of us who, although trust your word and judgement, just haven't seen it/been given the specifics.
Yes, I know how this must feel (or I'm trying, anyway). I can understand there may be some that think, "Well, it's nice that you feel so confident but I don't want to make that call till I see the info for myself."
Along those lines, maybe it's some comfort that all the Corrs attending are pretty much in agreement that the underlying proposal and premise of what's coming will really help things a TON.
In a nutshell, you have the insiders information on the exact changes, we only have "The changes will be good"
I know...like I said, I hate not being able to really kick things around on this.
Respectfully,
Message Edited by ResourceMonkey on 08-30-2004 12:31 PM
JavelinCatcher wrote:
TheRealTK421 wrote:
Things that might be on the table (note: these are things just the Corrs. discussed for possible fodder):
Resource 'stuff' (lots, stack limits, changing out % concentrations could be tied to the quality of the resources, etc)
Resources; oh boy, where to start. It was probably the original intention that 100,000 units was a LOT of material (and it still is under most circumstances). Most people don't remember the days of BER 2 personals, BER 4 Mediums and BER 7 Heavies....but I know you do. It was fairly difficult to get a decent sum of materials at those standards. Then the BER of harvesters was increased. It was 10x easier to obtain 200,000 units of some material that was exceptional. Professions that didn't need organic resources saw a increase in production (Architect (harvesters), Weaponsmith, Droid Engineer). The only thing seriously limiting small time Docs/CM's, Armorsmiths and Chef's is the lower level of organic harvesting that we've seen lately. People would rather defense stack a profession than take up scout. I realize that's not exactly our problem, but we feel the effects of it (and have so in the long run already).
How crafters and Merchants can be better tied together, for a better outcome on both ends
One Word: Consignment. There needs to be a better system for this and merchants have been begging for this since day 15.
How the crafting process might be able to be changed to ensure that we don't see 10000 of the "best" item on a vendor and altering things so that hand-crafting actually has a reason to be "better".
This is a dangerous road. On one hand, you have people who want "nothing but the best"...and there are a lot of those people. The shear number of people who want "nothing but the best" raises the bar. Lowering the bar is much harder after that happens. On the other hand, you have the ability to supply "nothing but the best." By increasing resource availability, you increase the possibility of higher end items. It won't matter if hand crafting or if the factory makes the item, people will want the better of the two if there is one and will pay a premium for it.
My question is: what are you trying to acomplish by making hand crafting superior to factory crafting? Is it just to give "meaning" to hand crafting? or is there some economical influence behind this?
Any crafting/production/industrial issues that really are common to us all and not focused on any specific profession.
Basically, I think we were really trying to consider how we can ensure that being a "quality" crafter would matter a lot...not just tying access to the best to how many factories you have. It's hard to explain all this a quick comment. When I can, we'll get a lot more info out to you as the Crafting Corrs are going to put together our own little mini-proposal to all the crafting profs. on the stuff we think would help us all.
/bow
Respectfully,
Here's my thougts on this and I've lets this stew ever since the merchant changes were added with publish 10. We see a lot more people just defense stacking combat professions because it's easier to make money running missions on Dantooine than it is "producing something" (by production I mean either harvesting (creature resource) or crafting). In order to decrease the number of defense stackers, there needs to be a motivation to produce. By lowering availability (either through limiting the number of items on a vendor or making people take up some sort of crafting profession (yes, I include Doc/CM when I refer to crafting) you remove a person who is potentially a "pure combatant." Conversely, removing the rewards of being a pure combatant may also do this to some extent (lowering mission payouts, making loot items easier to obtain...etc.)
Sorry for hi-jacking the thread, but I havn't quite found the right outlet to explain this. I have more thoughts on this, but they arn't quite flushed out yet.
And this is a perfect example of why TK can't give out information before it's time (no offence, Javelin).
/bow
JavelinCatcher wrote:
TheRealTK421 wrote:
Things that might be on the table (note: these are things just the Corrs. discussed for possible fodder):
Resource 'stuff' (lots, stack limits, changing out % concentrations could be tied to the quality of the resources, etc)
Resources; oh boy, where to start. It was probably the original intention that 100,000 units was a LOT of material (and it still is under most circumstances).
Yea...the baselineissue ofthere being too much resources (or too much 'uber' resources) was definitely part of the discussion.
Most people don't remember the days of BER 2 personals, BER 4 Mediums and BER 7 Heavies....but I know you do. It was fairly difficult to get a decent sum of materials at those standards.
Precisely. And that's part of the reason why the crafted 'uber' market game is so far out of whack right now. It should be insanely hard (i.e. 'crafter high/end-game' to produce some number of really truly superior items). As it stands now, you only need to get one schematic and the market is flooded. And that's bad...
"That which we obtain too cheaply, we value too poorly." - Mark Twain
The market for such uber item shouldn't be tied to flooding the market with them via factory use. We need to find some to flip the whole thing on its ear vis a vis the 'hand crafted cars are the best in the world' statement.
I realize that's not exactly our problem, but we feel the effects of it (and have so in the long run already).
Exactly...and that was contained in the issues and such that came up.
How crafters and Merchants can be better tied together, for a better outcome on both ends
One Word: Consignment. There needs to be a better system for this and merchants have been begging for this since day 15.
The issue of a true, practical consignment system came up a lot (between us Corrs, not officially via the meeting). Not just that but a lot of related concerns similar to this.
How the crafting process might be able to be changed to ensure that we don't see 10000 of the "best" item on a vendor and altering things so that hand-crafting actually has a reason to be "better".
This is a dangerous road.
Yea, I know...that's why the crafting Corrs want to tear the heck out of all this before we bring it to you all to shoot holes in. We want to make sure that the systems to produce 'uber' crafted items are more in line with the end-game level that they really need to happen at....
On one hand, you have people who want "nothing but the best"...and there are a lot of those people.
True. For that reason alone, we can't have a situation where these folks can just go shop at whoever can factory flood the market the best. That means the quality market loses all real value when getting the top/uber item becomes a trivial matter. We want to make it NOT trivial to obtain that kind of 'power' in whatever the item might be.
The shear number of people who want "nothing but the best" raises the bar. Lowering the bar is much harder after that happens.
Yup...something like that came up too. I can just hear the folks that'll scream, "What do you mean?!?! I can't make 5000 uber T-21s anymore?"
You should still be able to get uber items out there. However, it can't be as trivial to do as it is now...that's the whole point. Having that kind of power should be hard...or the item has no real relative value in the larger market (i.e. hand-crafted cars, the best in the world, are also by FAR the most expensive to obtain...as they should be).
On the other hand, you have the ability to supply "nothing but the best." By increasing resource availability, you increase the possibility of higher end items. It won't matter if hand crafting or if the factory makes the item, people will want the better of the two if there is one and will pay a premium for it.
See...that's just it, we are thinking that factory use vs. handcrafting should matter, in this regard. Being able to crate 'nothing but the best' is part of what's devaluing the market in the top/uber items. That's part of what we have to change.
One idea I floated (and I'm sure I can talk about this..cause we we're just talking) is that we move the choice of creating a prototype (handcraft) vs. schematic is moved to the front of the crafting process, not at the back. This was MY idea...no Dev was involved in this, by the way. If so, it might be that a hand crafted item had some kind of stat 'buff' to simulate the analogy of the hand-crafted car being better than those made in factories. That's not to say that factory made items will need to always be horrible. Just that you'd be able to eek out some amount more quality via handcrafting than using a factory. That makes handcrafting matter and prevents the "best" from just being crated in mass on vendors.
My question is: what are you trying to acomplish by making hand crafting superior to factory crafting?
Ensuring that getting the "best" in the game isn't a matter ofjamming a vendor with tons of factory crates. It should be hard to get the best in the game....nottrivial via factory runs.
Is it just to give "meaning" to hand crafting? or is there some economical influence behind this?
Well, there is an economic repercussion here. 'Uber' crafted items right now don't really have a premium price due to the fact that they CAN be crated en masse. To get those power items to have correct value relative to the market, we have to ensure that they are not trivial to obtain for powercrafter types.
If one powercrafter can flood the market with uber items...it's loses any kind of premium and simply becomes a commodity.
Sorry for hi-jacking the thread, but I havn't quite found the right outlet to explain this. I have more thoughts on this, but they arn't quite flushed out yet.
You didn't hijack. This is one of those issues that got discussed just via the crafting Corrs some (mostly me and Dvnce) as something that might be key to the economics and crafting game.
If you think about it...the combat balance/revamp can't exist in a vacuum. The way it relates to crafting is part of how we'll all be affected down the line. There very much a ying and yang aspect to this. The CB/CR is going to help a ton...but we can't pretend that it won't have some kind of impact on the crafting aspects of the game. What we talked about was how to make sure there's balance in the system after the CB/CR via the 'Industrials Revamp/Balance' type idea down the line.
Note: I don't want anything thinking that the Devs have anything in the pipeline for such a core crafting systems rework....it was all just talk.
Respectfully,
TheRealTK421 wrote:
I agree with pretty much everything that you said, except what is in orange.
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Hmm this may get a bit long, maybe parts of it would be even more suited to a combat board, but I like talking about stuff here.
Me too.
First TK, you can't make factory runs of the "uber" items. The top of the line stuff is made with looted componants, such as tissues. Then you need to consider slicing. Yes, somebody may make 50 T21's, yet of those 50, only 5 may get slices that make people consider them "uber."
Well..yes, it was just an example (perhaps a poor one). I think you got the basic idea I was trying to get across though...which is what was important.
Well I just picked out the T21 myself, doesn't matter what weapon or armor actually. The fact of the matter is that HUGE amounts of armor and weapons are just discarded because they got bad slices. I know people who literally buy 10 suits of armor then slice them to make one set. My point is that while I agree some stuff may be overpowered, armor especially, it's not until people get the extremely highly sliced stuff that it is "uber."
I agree that some things are borked right now, yet I don't think hand crafting is the answer. Sure make me hand craft maybe my final droid, but for the love of Vader, don't make me craft it all by hand.
I'm not just talking about droids...I'm talking about all craftables (yes, all of them). To create a better 'high end market', we have to make handcrafting produce better potential items than what can be made at any time by a factory. That's the basis of the idea.
A thing to remember TK is that if you slow crafting down a lot, so now less "uber" items will be available, it becomes much much harder to "scale" content and the game. Currently when designing content, you can make some pretty safe assumptions about what gear people have.
But right now, many people have weapons that they really shouldn't have. So, the balance is already way out of whack (and it's what led topeople being able to solo content they shouldn't be able to solo). That balance has to be put back.Basically, there has to be a reworking ofthe power distribution curve for craftables so that having a truely wicked awesome ______ means something (which right now isn't as much the case as it should be).
I disagree with this strongly. Player crafted weapons are NOT the problem. The problem is when people loot 650 damage Ackley bones, Legendary T21's with 1k damage, or 1000 Mind Fire Nightsister lances. The loot system is severly borked. While you TOTALLY need to have uber loot for people to find to keep them interested, there needs to be a limit. Loot weapons are way way more overpowered then any player crafted weapon.
If you nerf the crafting system to much, some people will have far better gear then others, whether it was crafted better, or sliced better. Now do you design the new content for the people with the top gear, or the low gear?
Uhhhh.....carefully?
I honestly don't have that big of a problem with large factory runs. Due to the randomness of slicing, the really important stuff like Weapons and Armor still need a luck factor to get uber.
Now as to errr combat balancing.
I'm not sure what was discussed, but hopefully it adresses what I think is the core combat problem.
Professions are varied, some are suppossed to have strong offense, others good defense, each have pluses and minuses. However, with the current state of buffs and armor, many minuses don't exist. For example, Swordsman are highly offensive, yet with buffs and armor, they tank nearly as good as a Fencer of TKM. This is broken and needs fixed.
I think you have a very keen grasp of the issues, man...seriously. That being said, I think you're gonna love the new combat system.
I'm sure the combat revamp through changing buffs and armor (nerfing) will make template diversity more important.
I think you have a very keen grasp of the issues, man...seriously. That being said, I think you're gonna love the new combat system.
/pointsUp QFE
This is great. Yet care should be taken.
I'm all for needing a group (a few people, shouldn't need like 20,) to take down some higher end game. Group hunts are fun. Yet people should not be FORCED to group all the time. If I simply want to make a little xp or get some loot, I shouldn't be forced to group all the time. It's a fine line to walk. You don't want people to roll through stuff, yet you do want people to be able to solo as well.
It depends on the level of stuff that a group or soloists goes after. The super high end stuff should never be able to be soloable (example: The Corvette).
I think I need to explain this more. I 100% agree you should have a full group of 10 for places like the DWB or Corvette. Even with that it is very tough. However, what size group "should" you need for a little Nightsister hunting? I think a target number of 4-6 for a normal "high end" non quest hunt is a decent number.
First you need to consider that these Mobs are a TON tougher now that they have their powers back. Soloing now is much much harder. Even without powers, it can take a group of 4-6 about 10 minutes to take down an Elder. Now if you limit specials, it may take 45-60 minutes with 4-6 people. Not to mention that with armor nerfed you will get hit a lot harder.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think Elders should be solo-able or easy, my point is that you shouldn't need 10 or more people for a simple loot hunt. That is going to far.
I agree in 3 levels of content, Solo, small -med group, and large group. If you limit the really good loot to only the large group hunts, people will quit. Not a threat, a fact. People like to hunt for that "X-mas" feeling of opening a present and seeing what you get. Getting 2 or 3 friends together is one thing, getting 10 together is quite another.
Lastly, if Armor, Buffs, and Specials are reduced (nerfed,) then obviously creatures will need to be scaled as well. How do you kill something with 300k HAM, when you can only do 1 special every 10 seconds, and it can kill you with 2 swings?
You don't. You go after game you can handle solo. In the example you gave above, you won't be able to solo that...so you'll have to use a group. /shrug
As you stated, it's a fine line. People claim combat is boring cause they can solo content that was never intended to be soloable. So..there's only way to solve the problem, really.Is it right that a soloist can't do every bit of possible content in the game?
I meant the above with a group not solo, read what I said above from a group perspective.
I can't wait to hear what you have to say. I look forward to the Combat Revamp, I think that done right it will carry SWG to the next level. Done wrong though...
Hence the reason we need to beat the ___ out of the info that's coming to you, so we can be sure that we get the best CB/CR possible (and it will still get tweaked to be better down the line, I'm sure).
NJ62 wrote:
I have a question about the summit...
Have you worn the hawtpants the devs gave you yet?
/snicker
You're kidding, right? I told you...I won't be turned, and I won't.
(note: had a great time meeting you....hope all's well with you-know-who!!)
/bow2 (not to hawtpants...just to you personally)
OckVofad wrote:
TK, You do a great job and I have yet to see one post where you lose your cool.
Maybe you better go peep my old stuff then.
Keep up the great work. I post my thoughts on a crafting balance when you guys decide to present it.
I know you guys got to test out JTL. Got any general comments about droids in that?
/ductTapesMouthShut
/bow
Respectfully,
Didn't checked that in a while, but even if he has no chance to win 1v1 against a master of any combat profession, I would love to see that my 3K HAM killing machine is not made in paper.
This is my main combat related droid issue.
Gavvot wrote:
What about the 'my droid last 1.2 second in PvP because 75% reduction isn't applied, AR0, 20% resist' issue?
Didn't checked that in a while, but even if he has no chance to win 1v1 against a master of any combat profession, I would love to see that my 3K HAM killing machine is not made in paper.
This is my main combat related droid issue.
I couldn't have said it better.
It's kind of easy, in a way.
1) Put the choice of making the item, or the schematic first. So a person can't fluke and get a pile of amasing sucesses and then hit "make schematic" and get a bunch of high end items.
2) Have a subtle bias in the types of sucesses while doing hand crafting. put it down as an "intuition bonus".. you notice that something can be done more efficently in this particular case.
It's not perfect, and people -would- complain, loudly, but it at least makes some sense.
Velneth wrote:
Kinda deviating a bit here, but on the whole issue of how to make hand crafted weapons more valuable than non hand crafted ones...
It's kind of easy, in a way.
1) Put the choice of making the item, or the schematic first. So a person can't fluke and get a pile of amasing sucesses and then hit "make schematic" and get a bunch of high end items.
Yup. I think it would really be key to making the whole thing fly.
From the player's standpoint, we'd just be doing a bit of a shell game with the current steps we have now.
2) Have a subtle bias in the types of sucesses while doing hand crafting. put it down as an "intuition bonus".. you notice that something can be done more efficently in this particular case.
Indeed. That also came up. It's the 'you're focusing on what you're doing very hard' bonus. There a bonus to using factories (don't have to spend time crafting) and a downside (can't make a _____ that's as good).
Mmmm....yummy. That means choice is tied to value.
It's not perfect, and people -would- complain, loudly, but it at least makes some sense.
We don't really have all our thoughts together on this yet but I think something like it would really be very good for the all aspects of the crafting game and the overall economy in-game. More on this soon, I hope....
Respectfully,