Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Droid use and the common man: a solution to the foreseen overuse of combat droids
Jeez Raystonn... I've yet to see 1 glimpse of a point from you about how not having a Certification System is beneficial to the overall status of the game. You continue to analyze and and discuss my points... At least I am able to create points to support my argument. Really, allow me to go on the offensive sometime... Cause your currentdissectionshave no real argument. Almost as if you are avoiding trying to put up a good fight... You like the idea of "All or Nothing" do you? Have all your cake and eat it too. The same pattern can be seen through your view of the Future of Combat Droids.
*Sigh* Here I go again, in with the backless.
Some statments you have madeI have already replied to Nell. So reply to that reply also. If you want.I'll be making obvious observations.
"They don't "use" themselves."
And Droids dont "use" themselves... You have to give orders, just like giving orders from your brain to your arm to point a gun.What exactly is the difference between the two weapons? They are both weapons.Both rely on the organic brain, the other just has it's ownbrain that interprets orders from its organic masters counter part. Sure it takes no skill to tell it what to do.
Heh thank you for totally avoidingthis. "I thought MMORPG's were supposed to be a long term enjoyable thing." As well as themy following paragraph.
"Sorry, but that isn't even close to a certification system."
Without crafters to produce the items, whos going tocreate them? The fact that you need people to create objects for other people to functon is a system. Prerequisites. Same as a Certification sytem... You need a certain Prerequisite in order to obtain or use an item. Miners sell resources to crafters who in turn USE them. "few resources actually go toward creating new items these days." Even if new items are not being created by the purchases of said resources, they are being USED.For that"Grind"no one likes.People do not buy Useless Junk................. They give the items they buy a purpose, otherwise, why buy it? Even a wall ornament has a purpose.
"This has nothing to do with a lack of certifications and everything to do with the fact that all of our droids are entirely worthless and have virtually the same functionality and efficiency, regardless of type and quality."
So wait... Do you want Droids to have a Purpose or not? Do you not see my logic how this Certification System can benefit from Combat Droids serving different purposes? Like I said, when a Master Droid Engineer, whats the incentive to produce a low life BattleDroid? Whats theINCENTIVE?
HOW CAN YOU AVOID THE "GRIND"?
"Do you see Architects handing out heavy harvester deeds to everyone? I didn't think so. Your argument is fatally flawed. You assume that all combat droids will be as trivial to make as current droids. You assume everyone can afford massive maintenance fees for the best combat droid. You assume the economy produces endless amounts of money, and that everyone will eventually be rich and have everything they want. All of these assumptions are incorrect. Therefore, your argument is incorrect."
Too funny... Really, Architects can pass out passive novelty items for free all they want if they want, is it beneficial? ... The fact is they are just that, novelties.Anyone besides Crafters dont reallyneeds a house, furniture, harvesters, it's isnt even in the best interest to own them... With Combat Droids, they would take part in the biggest aspect of the game. Combat. There is a GCW going on... Or soI hear.Combat Droids would benefit everyone, whether its running between your harvesters and avoiding the Red Agro Cons, to hunting down your targets. Are they needed? No but, unlike Houses, they are beneficial in more ways that concern the game.
"Sorry? Did you just say people use personal harvesters instead of heavy harvesters because they can't use heavy harvesters? That's as far from the truth as possible. Everybody can use heavy harvesters. They have the ability to use them because there are no certifications, and they have the motivation to use them because resource mining is, literally,a gold mine. There is really no reason *not* to use heavy harvesters other than not being able to afford the 6 figure cost."
Really... Read what I wrote. From what you Quoted:
"Does everyonewant the best Harvester? Probably.But because of they cant afford one, they cant use it..."
How do you get what you said out of what I said? I in no way said people can't use them because they lack the skill to use them. That doesnt stop them from taking part of the biggest aspect of the game by means of Friends or PA Mate though. Now you might also see this as agreeing with your point. Because Combat Droids can be teated in the same manner. But their basic function is what invalidates that idea of being treated the same. Having batteries control how often you use a Combat Droid is a great idea... But, its only one half of a possible sollution. In my eyes.
Really, if you want to think you have me beat on this situation, go ahead to do so... You have done nothing but put up backless, thoughtless disections of my ideas... I'll rejoin when you post some of your own ideas as to why a No Certification System isindeed better for the greater good of the game.
You really have to start imaginingthe differencesbetween passive and active and understand the impacts ofchanges and thingswithin the game. That there is my content of the game...
I did I not prove how this system is needed? Are you a selevtive listener/reader?
You havn't proven why the the System is not needed,or why the current implementis the best.That therediscredited any argument you have displayed.
Thats where I will stop responding to your dissections. Untill some form ofvalidity comes proving thata No Cert System is in the best interest of the game and everyone who plays it.Have a nice day. 
And remember, these are all just ideas and opinions, I am in no way forcing my idea's onto others. If you feel like I come across that way, I apologize.
Ok, I guess one last point for justifications sake...
We don't have Droids in real life so bare with me.
You talk about being realistic... Yet allowing Combat Droids who are a threat to society to roam freely is realistic?
Almost everything in real life needs a license to or a legal document stating you are capable of using or controlling anything that could be a danger.
You don't allow a Tiger to be owned freely in a populated area do you? Relating to Droids in a way that... No matter how tame, or how much control you have over something. Anything that is a threat to society requires some form of legal agreement.
Maybe for Combat Droids in the game... You can have a Smuggler Friend personally forge these documents for you in game. Allowing you to bypass any Certification System. However, they can't be sold on any market (as there is no real black market), as they are forges, and must be personally transferred some how to avoid mass spreading. Just a thought
Heh, go one star clickers!
"You talk about being realistic... Yet allowing Combat Droids who are a threat to society to roam freely is realistic?"
The word "allow" would refer to some legally controlling authority. The Imperials are the legally controlling authority at this point. As a Rebel I coudl care less what laws the Imperials want to establish. I will use whatever weapons and droids I deem appropriate. The Imperials want me dead anyway, so their gun-control laws have no affect on me. Remember, outlaw guns or droids and only outlaws will have them. Outlaws (Rebels) are a part of this game. You cannot use certifications to establish Imperial laws.
-Raystonn
Ok, this last post is for sanitys sake...
"Your central theme is that anything non-combat-related is a novelty. This could not be further from the truth. SWG has many professions that are entirely unrelated to combat. Your contention that we are all nothing more than novelty professions is very insulting."
Can you quit warping other peoples ideals to fit your perverse view of the problems of the game? Your very logic seems to defeat itself also. I've still yet to see one Non-Disscetion from you proving that a Non-Certification System is best and is able to solve problems that we are going through today.
A Barricade should be a Barricade. Not a Pole people can take an extra step to walk around casually.
I never said Crafting Professions are novelties. Honestly, your ability to keep an argument is waning on me. I've said Harvesters are Novelties... Harvesters are a part of Architects, they do not make Architects fully. Get that? Read it twice.
Understand the concept of Passive vs. Aggressive. It isnt Useless vs. Useful. Architects are able to create Houses, Terminal, Harvesters. Whoare the primary Users of those such things? Other crafting Profession. Tailors, ArmourSmiths, WeaponSmiths, Droid Engineers, Chefs, Architects. Beneath it all, what do those Professions create?
To a lesser extent, Tailors can create clothes for everyone.
More specifically, ArmourSmiths, WeaponSmiths, (soon to be) Droid Engineers, and Chefs can all produce products who benefit the 3:1 Ratio of Combat Classes to Crafting Classes.
"Because the XP system is not based on a curve, and has no player-based feedback system to determine how much XP a particular action is worth, it is absolutely trivial to gain XP, and thus certifications."
I'm sorry, why again as we go up the skill tree, more experience is needed to gain another skill? Is that not a curve? Player based feedback on how much experience is worth? Is that not choosing to fighting stronger creatures? Trivial to gain XP? So its beneficial to stay at Novice Brawler/Marksman/Medic/Scout/Artisan? But because....
THERE ARE SO MANY CERTIFICATIONS IN THE GAME. SUCH AS GAINING THE ABILITY TO MAKE OR USEBETTER ITEMS AND/OR USE BETTER SPECIAL ATTACKS...
PEOPLEHAVE NO FUNBECAUSE OF THE CERTIFICATION SYSTEM ALREADY IN PLACE?
Argh... My sanity for knowledge of logic behind this whole argument.
"The only thing keeping everyone from having all skills is the skill point cap. Because XP is so trivial to gain, everyone who desires to do so can easily get to the end of his profession fairly quickly. Couple this with the skill point cap and you end up with a system very much like the strict classes of other games."
"This actually causes the problem you are so actively claiming to be trying to avoid."
So, wait, are you saying having limitations is a good thing? Creating adiverse community in a Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.Is that not a good thing? IM TRYING TO ASK, HOW CAN WE AVOID THE NECESSAY GRIND AND ENJOY THE TRIP? "Mommy are we there yet?" I don't know about you but, I'm playing Star Wars Galaxies.
Remember we are talking Certification System vs. No Certification System, or your Battery Idea. Which I think you've forgotten quite a while back.
"If you make crap that nobody needs, you are not goign to sell any of it."
Argh again! Which is why a Certification System could be in place to give PURPOSE to those lower end Combat Droids.
"The more your work benefits the player community, the more wealthy you become. You cannot grind out wealth in a vacuum like you can XP."
Really... I'm totally lost are you agreeing with me or what? I have no problem with people working for their goals.I'm saying its beneficial to give that extra bit of earned wealth (which is not measured by the amout of credits)by being able to purchase that cool new Combat Droid gleefully. You wont end up with, "Oh, bleh I dont want that useless thing." Right off the groundhit from Home Plate.
"Shooting critters for XP is trivial and leads to everyone gaining access to *all* certifications in their profession."
Whether its shooting critters or crafting items... They work for *all* those certifications... Again what are you trying to say.
"Wealth should be the determining factor for the power you wield, not some arbitrary XP-based skill system. To build wealth requires hard work that benefits the player community."
Wealth again is not just the money you have in your hand. It can be how manyskill points you have used to become your chosen class.It can be measured by the amout of fun you have on your journey. WHICH IS INCENTIVE.
Really I have no more faith in this thread or the ability of myself to go on with this stupid topic. I'm truly done, that last postdid it.I JUST WISH THE DEVS WOULD GIVE US A GLIMMER OF HOPE. All I have to say is this one sided argument really give me a big "Argh..."
"Remember we are talking Certification System vs. No Certification System, or your Battery Idea. Which I think you've forgotten quite a while back."
My idea is that droids should require power to use. My idea does not require any 'batteries', just power that can be harvested. As far as what we are discussing, you have your own thread for your 'certification system'. We aren't discussing that here. It's not worth my time. If you want to propose something in your own thread, then go for it. Just provide the reasoning why that system is needed and why it beats out all other ideas so far, in that thread.
It's not up to the rest of the community to read over every idea that's posted and say why it would be a bad idea to implement that system. Instead, It's up to the inventor of the system to show why that system is required, and why it's better than the systems that have already been suggested. You seem to suggest that the ball is in my court to show 'why' your system is a bad idea. It's not. It'sin your court to show why it's required. Any change or addition should be looked at as unnecessary until someone shows otherwise. You have yet to do that.
"Argh again! Which is why a Certification System could be in place to give PURPOSE to those lower end Combat Droids."
Again, you failed to read everything I have said. An artificial 'certification system' is not required to 'give purpose to those lower end combat droids'. In much the same manner as no certification system is required to give purpose to a personal or medium harvester, the economy will ensure that the lower end combat droids do have a purpose. They fill the void down at the lower price points. Why do you think Intel sells CPUs at different speeds and vastly different prices? It's done to cover all price points. People have a certain amount of money that they are willing to spend on various products. It's no different in SWG. Simply pump up the resource requirements to create the most advanced combat droids and you will push up their price point so only 5% of the population can afford them. Other combat droids might only require one tenths of the resources, so perhaps 20% of the population might be able to afford them. The low-end combat droids would be affordable to probably 75% of the population due to the low resource requirements in their creation.
None of this requires an extra 'certification system'. It will work perfectly with the current player-based economy in SWG. Why have an extra 'certification system' when it's not needed? This system adds no value and serves no purpose.
"Wealth again is not just the money you have in your hand. It can be how manyskill points you have used to become your chosen class."
That's not quite true. Given the current design of the skill system, it's inevitable that everyone will reach master level in their chosen profession. Nothing that is commonplace can be considered wealth. If everyone had ten million dollars, you certainly would not call everyone wealthy. Wealth would instead become redefined as ten billion dollars. Anything that is attainable by 100% of the server population simultaneously cannot be used as a measurement of wealth. This is basic economics.
The skill points required to obtain access to an advanced combat certification would be available to anyone who tried, so long as they put in the effort. Through a certification system, the result would be that 100% of those who desired advanced combat droids would end up having them. This is a bad thing. The whole purpose is to limit their use to a small percentage of the population. Skill points don't allow for that. There is no dynamic competition in the skill point system. Anyone can level up their skills to maximum values, regardless of how many others have already done so. That wouldn't limit the use of advanced combat droids at all. That would turn SWG into an advanced combat droid zoo. I would hope you could see that this would be a bad thing.
-Raystonn
However, droids should consume power every time they are called from the datapad.
I do like this idea. I see the need for a cert system in the game. I would like to see droid batteries being treated as containers that can hold x amout of power based on the materials and skill.
That power would then be depleted until the battery has run dry and is destroyed (cells damaged).
The main need here is to ensure that everyone who wants an advanced combat droid is not guaranteed to get one. Since everyone is guaranteed to eventually get all the skill points they want, and hence all the certifications they want, a combat droid certification system does not remove the guarantee of advanced combat droids from everyone's plate. It would only serve to further guarantee that everyone who wanted one would eventually get one, and thus guarantee that advanced combat droids would become commonplace.
Unless you want advanced combat droids nerfed to uselessness, we must ensure this does not happen!
-Raystonn
"The main need here is to ensure that everyone who wants an advanced combat droid is not guaranteed to get one. Since everyone is guaranteed to eventually get all the skill points they want, and hence all the certifications they want, a combat droid certification system does not remove the guarantee of advanced combat droids from everyone's plate. It would only serve to further guarantee that everyone who wanted one would eventually get one, and thus guarantee that advanced combat droids would become commonplace.
Unless you want advanced combat droids nerfed to uselessness, we must ensure this does not happen!"
Ok, thanks for stating your main point.
Now I must ask why you think a Certification System automatically allows people to get advanced combat droids for free once they reach a certification level? Why does your economoics idea fade away at the sight of a Certificiation? Why can't it work like how Weapons work already in the game? Think hard now,howthe current implement of WeaponSmith Weapons are working.My idea keeps stating that Combat Droids ARE Weapons. Thus, they should be treated in a similar manner. Remeber, just because someone has a Certification to fly a Jet, Helicopter, Car, etc.doesnt mean they can afford it... Keep that in mind.
Beings weapons are being used for the comparison more often than not, I wanted to point out that it takes zero skill to fire any weapon. You pull the trigger or hit the button, that's it. Now to fire a weapon well, that takes skill and training which is what the certifications represent.
You could consider the droid certifications as showing that the character has acquired the skill necessary to "tinker" with their droids to fix minor problems that happen in the field. Loose wiring from the droid bouncing over rough terrain? Anyone can fix that as long as they have a bit of knowledge regarding their droid, though it would take a specialist to be able to overhaul the firiring mechanism. I believe this is what is referred to when people are talking about droid certifications.
That being said, I personally disagree with a droid certification system, just as I disagree with the idea here that said a decent droid should require huge amounts of energy to operate. If droids were balanced in combat a bit better neither would be necessary. Droids should be able to produce significantly higher damage than any CH pet, however they should also be easier to damage (in game terms, higher min/max damage and lower delay on firing but still a lower health cap). This would make droids useful to certain playstyles, and useless to others. Both types of pets (CH and droid) would have a use, and would have thier own market.
My argument against the energy idea is that it limits droids to only the people who spend more time gathering cash than exploring the world. It is silly to think that with the technology involved in building a droid that the battery technologies in existance would be so low that it takes as much energy to power a harvester for a day or two just to pull a droid out of the datapad. Though I would like to see energy amounts added to droid batteries so that instead of getting 4 batteries for a well made set, you would get a longer timeframe until you had to recharge your droid.
In the movies, you saw quite a few poor people with droids. This shows that at least in the movies that the major cost of droids was the initial purchase (one time fee) and not the maintainence. This is the way I believe it should be even if that were not the case.
The power idea is good, but I don't believe it's limiting enough. It gives the n00b player an all-too-easy way out by just buddying up with a richfriend or guildy.
My latest brainwave (and I know this will NEVER see live play, but would be hella-cool) is that the higher-level combat droids would require specific parts that wear out quickly. Combat droids are used and abused every day moreso than a non-combat droid. It makes sense that these droids would not only require hideous amounts of power, but would have things such as power cores and whatnot that are used heavily and decay rapidly. Have you priced a power core from your friendly neighborhood architect lately? A rather pricey chunk of hardware... and the part could only be replaced by a DE. This is just a simple example, but you see where I'm going with this. It creates a huge money-sink to the uber-wealth battle types, and spreads the cash out amongst various artisan classes rather than just one. It also would create repeat business.
The key here is that instead of a n00b hitting up his guild for 100k power for his "psycho world-crusher droid", he would have to continue to have it physically maintained, which is expensive.
I realize this would require coding the ability to replace subcomponents within droids, and is too complicated to be implemented anytime soon. However, I see it as a cool way to smoothly settle this whole "droid handler" BS, as well as limit who can afford to maintain/abuse an uber-droid. It would also create a new type of DE that could use currently-existing skills to specialize in a sort of "chop shop". Strictly dealing with replacing old components with hotrod or customized parts and reselling droids.. a rather sweet subplot to be explored.. 
Cheers,
Mirius Barakiel -ZAM Enterprises- Kaadara,Naboo,Sunrunner