Droid Engineer Archive

I know you didn't mean it as an insult. The point is that while there are people who do run their in-game businesses as charities, I do actually run mine for profit. I work hard to keep my overheads as low as possible, so all of those prices I listed are 50% profit after all overheads have been accounted for (resource costs, travel costs, factories, vendor fees, shop maintenance, etc.). OK, so I could make 90% more profit on all those items, but I'm still running as a profitable business. Unless I splash out on more skill tapes or something like that I could hit an eight figure bank account by the end of the summer. It might not be much compared to what some of you make, but it's definitely a not-insignificant amount of virtual-money.

EnigmaBSc

QFE

When I talk about this being potentially a very bad thing...this is what I mean.

/pointdown

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EnigmaBSc wrote:
OK, so we've had the "The Sky Is Not Falling" point of view. Now here's the "The Sky Could Very Well Fall" point of view from the guy who could get all the business.

Let me preface this post by saying that I'm on very good terms with many of the Droid Engineers on my server, I am not an idiot, nor am I a charity, but if it helps you to think of me that way then please go right ahead. I have outlined my reasons for my prices before and don't feel the need to do so again. I have debated them many times and been presented with just about every conceivable counter-argument you can come up with. I stick with my prices and I have good reason for doing so. I am not hurting anybody with them (at least not while we don't have a vendor search which shows prices). Furthermore, Droid Engineering seems to be in a very healthy state on my server at the moment. There's Atan who can beat me on quality by a few points, Baebar can too on a couple of items. Opekli has the widest net, with vendors on about five different planets. Kesa is one of the cheapest, apart from me. Then there's Ralarin, CTC, and a couple of other smaller droid outfits, plus Nebar who's just starting to get into the profession.

So you think a vendor search with prices is a good thing? You think that it will increase exposure for your business and while prices may drop a little the "undercutters" will wear themselves out in short order and you can always buy them out and resell.

Think again.

In the last two months I've sold over 200 crates of Arakyd Probe Droids at 1550 credits per crate. Yes, that not a typo. One thousand five hundred and fifty credits per crate. I have another forty crates on my vendor.

I have 108 rated creature harvest droids on my vendors at four thousand two hundred and seventy credits per droid. I have combat R3 droids with a combat rating of 600 and 99% experimented HAMs for three thousand nine hundred and ten credits per droid. I have combat probots with combat rating of 529 and 99% experimented HAMs for two thousand seven hundred and fifty credits per droid. I have droids with item storage, with crafting stations, with medical modules, with auto-repair. You name it, I have it. I have over 500 droids on my vendors and that number goes up every day.

Think I'm a temporary blip and will wear myself out? Hasn't happened in the last six months. What makes you think it'll happen in the next six?

Think you can buy me out? Go ahead and try it. I've dealt with resellers before. And it doesn't matter, because I'll restock. Can you buy up 20 droids every day as soon as I put them up for sale? And that's a low output because I'm using droids to get FS crafting xp. If I ran more of the components in a factory my daily output could go up to about 50 droids.

Do you want to compete with that?

Do you think I'm the only Droid Engineer in the game who works like this?

Do you think there isn't one on your server?

Want to find out?

I care about the state of Droid Engineering on my server. I have no desire to wipe out the businesses of other Droid Engineers. But I can guarantee that there will be somebody somewhere who doesn't care.

Global vendor search with sortable comparable price is a bad idea™.

EnigmaBSc

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GraySeven wrote:

If you are selling for 1550 cr per crate what I sell for 25k per crate, then one of two things is happening:

1. You are making no profit from those crates, and are making it up in another way. Whether you are selling something else or running missions, your operating income does not come from DE... I also fail to see how you are on good terms with other DE's for this. I price my droids based on not only my time and expenses, but the earning potential of BH's. At my prices, BH's must spend 1000cr a mark on droids. That you charge that low a price only hurts you.
2. I'm charging too much. I have too high a value on my time and ability. I feel the effort of 3 factory runs for components to run 999 BH droids is much, much more than you do. I feel the hours spent searching out and harvesting resources, the factory time, the storage spaces I need for finished components....I must be out of my mind.

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3. I am making a profit on those crates, you are making a profit equivalent to that which a Master Elite Combat character would make in an equivalent period of time.

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And like I said, if I can't buy you out. I'll stop competing. You would become the only supplier of BH droids. All BH's would come to you for their droids. You're work load will greatly increase. How long will it remain fun for you I wonder? I've never earned my "living" as a DE...its always been my other crafting profession that has allowed me to support my DE habit...

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It's not just Bounty Hunter droids, it's all droids. Oh, sure, I can't supply the entire server indefinitely, but I can supply a significant proportion of it if I wanted to.

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You can't possibly care for other DE's as you say you do while charging a price so low that it IS charity...

Message Edited by GraySeven on 03-20-200501:25 PM

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I do care. That's the main reason I probably won't register my vendors on the global bazaar if the system goes live with sortable comparable prices. As things stand we all get business, we all have fun. I've given advice and help to a couple of Droid Engineers as they joined the profession. Just because I charge next-to-nothing doesn't mean I don't care. You might not understand why or how, but thing on my server work just fine.

EnigmaBSc

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GraySeven wrote:

And like I said, if I can't buy you out. I'll stop competing. You would become the only supplier of BH droids. All BH's would come to you for their droids.

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Ah....here's the rub, however.

If he's selling a ton of BH droids to all the BH's around the galaxy, guess what?

They will buy other droids from him too...........and 'talk up' his shop to anyone else that asks about droids (even non-BH droids).



Getting traffic an word-o-mouth IS where it's at in generating revenue. If you have to sell BH droids cheap to get the traffic going, then you better.


Honestly? 25k is WAY too much for crated BH droids.

I sell mine for like 8-10k.

(note: I realize that server markets are different, but BH droids should be 'commodity' items for you, not big revenue centers).

/bow

Respectfully,

Not a decision I have to make.

If this goes live, I'm out of here.

I've spent close to two years now developing a business, reputation, and customer base - and this just marginalizes everyone.

So some noob loser who ground up MDE in a day and bought some resources can list his droids side by side next to mine and the only deciding factor is going to be who can sell it cheaper.

Not my kind of game. If it happens, I'll be liquidating my assets, and selling off my fortune on eBay.

Never have I felt this strongly about something, but they will entirely decimate the entire business simulation SWG is if this goes through as described. SWG will loose it's most valuable asset, and no combat upgrade is going to make me want to play in spite of it.

It's too bad SWG hadn't seperated into two games - one, going along with the original design, and the other, a super-happy-fun-romp for "I want it now!!!" kiddos and carebears.

AO

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EnigmaBSc wrote:
OK, so we've had the "The Sky Is Not Falling" point of view. Now here's the "The Sky Could Very Well Fall" point of view from the guy who could get all the business.

Let me preface this post by saying that I'm on very good terms with many of the Droid Engineers on my server, I am not an idiot, nor am I a charity, but if it helps you to think of me that way then please go right ahead. I have outlined my reasons for my prices before and don't feel the need to do so again. I have debated them many times and been presented with just about every conceivable counter-argument you can come up with. I stick with my prices and I have good reason for doing so. I am not hurting anybody with them (at least not while we don't have a vendor search which shows prices). Furthermore, Droid Engineering seems to be in a very healthy state on my server at the moment. There's Atan who can beat me on quality by a few points, Baebar can too on a couple of items. Opekli has the widest net, with vendors on about five different planets. Kesa is one of the cheapest, apart from me. Then there's Ralarin, CTC, and a couple of other smaller droid outfits, plus Nebar who's just starting to get into the profession.

So you think a vendor search with prices is a good thing? You think that it will increase exposure for your business and while prices may drop a little the "undercutters" will wear themselves out in short order and you can always buy them out and resell.

Think again.

In the last two months I've sold over 200 crates of Arakyd Probe Droids at 1550 credits per crate. Yes, that not a typo. One thousand five hundred and fifty credits per crate. I have another forty crates on my vendor.

I have 108 rated creature harvest droids on my vendors at four thousand two hundred and seventy credits per droid. I have combat R3 droids with a combat rating of 600 and 99% experimented HAMs for three thousand nine hundred and ten credits per droid. I have combat probots with combat rating of 529 and 99% experimented HAMs for two thousand seven hundred and fifty credits per droid. I have droids with item storage, with crafting stations, with medical modules, with auto-repair. You name it, I have it. I have over 500 droids on my vendors and that number goes up every day.

Think I'm a temporary blip and will wear myself out? Hasn't happened in the last six months. What makes you think it'll happen in the next six?

Think you can buy me out? Go ahead and try it. I've dealt with resellers before. And it doesn't matter, because I'll restock. Can you buy up 20 droids every day as soon as I put them up for sale? And that's a low output because I'm using droids to get FS crafting xp. If I ran more of the components in a factory my daily output could go up to about 50 droids.

Do you want to compete with that?

Do you think I'm the only Droid Engineer in the game who works like this?

Do you think there isn't one on your server?

Want to find out?

I care about the state of Droid Engineering on my server. I have no desire to wipe out the businesses of other Droid Engineers. But I can guarantee that there will be somebody somewhere who doesn't care.

Global vendor search with sortable comparable price is a bad idea™.

EnigmaBSc

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Scariest post ever. Thank you for posting it, Enigma.

See, this is the crux of the issue - the situation Engima pointed out is EXACTLY what "they" (the players for this) want. They want to pay nothing for their products, they want it all now, and they could care less if crafters survive. These are the players that wish we didn't exist at all, that Entertainers and Docs didn't exist, that they just bought healing and meds and weapons and clothes from NPCs or terminals. Every crafting profession on every server will have one or two players like Engima who sell top of the line master products with rare resources for less than a combat player earns from a single mission, and eventually vendors will be obsolete to anyone but loot sellers - all crafted products will be at bazaar pricing.

The vast majority of the recent changes in SWG to increase the "fun" factor have been good, if not great. This one, however, will take out an entire "mini-game" that in some ways is bigger than the code itself. I cringe at calling it a mini-game, because it is so vastly complex.

The problem is, it isn't a piece of code the Devs can look at, and I really feel as if they are overlooking it. Maybe they aren't - maybe they see what a rich, diverse, mind-bogglingly interesting and fun business simulation SWG is yet they think caving into the "I need it NOW for PENNIES" will increase overall satisfaction. It may make them happy, but crafting professions will be relegated to guild alts and support instead of the games in and of themselves that they are.

SimCity has nothing on SWG because it's not fake numbers - the numbers in SWG are "REAL" numbers created by REAL players. My sales figures aren't created by random number generators, they are created by ACTUAL people who come to my shop and actively buy the products I advertise, create, and sell. No other game has this - or I'd be there. Eve Online comes close to having a fun economy, but that's the whole game - I didn't realize until I logged into the trial one day that I couldn't get off my ship. And, again, it's not "real" - the things people buy from crafters in SWG they really use, ride, wear, etc.

I like combat, but if that's all SWG was I wouldn't have been here for two years. I love exploring, and decorating, and just being in a "Star Wars" enviornment. However, the one thing that keeps me here is the crafting economy and making droids. Like this past month, I've only logged in to restock vendors and load factories as I've been busy IRL and just hadn't had much time. I have a few days free this week, and I'll probably run some of the new quests and such, or grind Jedi for eight hours - but then next week I won't be able to play nearly so much, yet I'll still find time to do vendors. The point is, in between the times where I have time to enjoy the content of SWG, it's the business that keeps me involved.

Without that aspect, I don't see myself hanging around very long. As neat as the CURB sounds, combat just isn't enough for me. JTL is fun, but again, combat keeps me entertained for 45 minutes or an hour tops before I need to go do something else. The beauty of SWG is that there is always something else to do, some thing you've been waiting for the time to see. The game won't be that way for me if this goes through.

As I said in my first post above, I really don't say "I Quit SWG" ever. Certain decisions made me contemplate it before, but I've always known that all the other aspects of SWG were enough to keep me here. But this change will take out my interest in DE and business at once - there is the core of my game. I may keep an account for awhile, but I know I just won't have the interest in the future without being able to work on my humble little empire.

All of this would go away if they just took the prices out. That would make the vast majority of players happy. The people who WANT to ruin our game won't like it, but any REASONABLE player can see it as the happy balance - you know what stores have what you want in stock, and then you have a small list of places to check out yourself. As a buyer AND a merchant I love it - because not everyone hates shopping, they hate HOW we have to shop. On only word-of-mouth and bad vendor listings that give no detail. Most players are perfectly happy traveling to three or four shops to compare products and prices - it's a HELL of a lot better than what we have now.

It's about balance, not one side or the other. Virtually all merchants have wanted a better form of advertising, we're only against the destruction of the marketplace and the commodification of every crafted product in the game. I would be you 95% of us would shut up if they just removed the damn prices.

The common rebuttal is "oh, then you must have something to hide!" from the snide crowd, which couldn't be further from the truth. Send me a tell, and email, or visit my shop and you will see my prices proudly on display - but to turn the bazaar essentially into a sortable spreadsheet of every single vendor in the game that any player can view at any time is "perfect" economic knowledge that renders the economy absolutely flat and meaningless.

AO

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EnigmaBSc wrote:
...There's Atan ... Baebar ... Opekli ... Kesa ... Ralarin... CTC, and a couple of other smaller droid outfits....plus Nebar ....

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TheRealTK421 wrote:

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GraySeven wrote:

And like I said, if I can't buy you out. I'll stop competing. You would become the only supplier of BH droids. All BH's would come to you for their droids.

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Ah....here's the rub, however.

If he's selling a ton of BH droids to all the BH's around the galaxy, guess what?

They will buy other droids from him too...........and 'talk up' his shop to anyone else that asks about droids (even non-BH droids).



Getting traffic an word-o-mouth IS where it's at in generating revenue. If you have to sell BH droids cheap to get the traffic going, then you better.


Honestly? 25k is WAY too much for crated BH droids.

I sell mine for like 8-10k.

(note: I realize that server markets are different, but BH droids should be 'commodity' items for you, not big revenue centers).

/bow

Respectfully,

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Right now, my only consistent droid sales are Flight computers and unprogrammed modules, BH droids, and droid stims.

At my price, a BH hunting a 200k bounty uses 1500 to 2000k of droids at most. A factory run of 999 droids requires days from start to finish (mostly factory time). I don't think I'm too out of line here.

I sold my first run at 5k a crate and sold out quickly. I'm selling crates now, but much slower so you may be right that I'm charging too much. Thats how you find a balance.

While they should be commodity items, its an unfortunate fact that they are one of the few items we have that are a demand item. While some of my best "droid" sales involved factory crates of MSE's with storage modules that I hade labled as Luggage droids, they were the exception.Even advertising custom droid services, made to order while you wait, I just haven't seen a demand.

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GraySeven wrote:

Even advertising custom droid services, made to order while you wait, I just haven't seen a demand.

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This may be due to people hearling your prices for BH droids and figuring that other custom work will be more costly than they'd like.

It takes a while to 'balance' your pricing to keep revenue coming in from non-BH droids.

I actually run 'ready-made' specials occassionally and then mark-down other droids to generate traffic, word-o-mouth and return sales.


/bow

Respectfully,

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GraySeven wrote:

Nice attitude, psikobunny. Alienation of the non-crafters will surely get your point across.

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Trust me, the guy was already alienated. He had been goin off on merchnats for several moments before I said that, and while some people have chosen to turn this into a Merchant vs the Shopper argument. I haven't, if you'd actually read my main post prior to this one.

Like any issue, I prefer to see it work as Development working with Community, and in this case it's Development dividing the community. They are setting players against players, because the fact that this majorly trumps the skill points people have invested in the Merchant profession bothers Merchants. It should bother them. They should have an advantage in the marketplace, going on our design principle of points invested == greater control over the game environment. In an ideal situation, Development would be working with the Merchant class to implement a system that helps the community shop (most good retailers don't like the false advertising of an empty vendor any more than you do surprisingly). Merchants should have the biggest voice in this argument, since as far as I can tell they aren't trying to keep anything they don't deserve to have, they don't want the community to suffer.

I personally am opposed to this because it is a bad feature tacked on to bad commerce interface. That's my beef. It's not useful, it's not going to be convenient for sales of the most popular items on a Live server, and its frankly a pain to use. Thing is, instead of getting messages about my wares when this goes Live, I'll be getting messages from noobs too numb to figure the thing out on their own, and if I don't help them, I'm the jerk.