Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Sodan's Hybrid DE Proposal
Arcid wrote:
We can but hope that it's being subjected to Dev scrutiny, one of the things I'm worried about is us not having the Higher level combat droids during the big combat balance, with all the troubles that would follow when the new combat droids were introduced later down the road.
Thats a very good point Arcid.
If we remember that the Devs had done work on DC already (though we never did know what level the droids would have been with that)
And we add to that the fact that they had the whole combat rebalance in progress simultaneously, then..
Logically, they must have figured >CL10 droids into that rebalance.
And if that is so, then leaving us where we are with nothing greater than CL10 means there is room for movement in their position on this, given that this plan DOES address the 'checkers issue'.
We can at least keep hoping that someone up there does want us to have 'fun' (tm), I think they do.
Lonkley wrote:
The only thing I would say Kollos, is that to a combatant, there's really very little difference going to Marksman 0004/DE 0040 then going through a new mini-profession. In the end. Its all just numbers with pretty graphics. The Hybrid plan does not make DE's a combat class. It makes DE's who want to do combat take up another profession to gain combat droids. Because its the refinement tree, there's no flood of cheap knock off droids, because its cheaper to buy a droid from a master than to loose the skill points to be able to make adequate droids (which will still not be the "best" unless they go to MDE and find the resources).
I think the current hybrid plan is the only hope of getting something implemented as far as new combat droids in the time remaining. I doubt we'll see anything after publish 8 for the rest of the year except for minor changes.
Everyone wanted certs for all players. That was our first choice. But this mini-tree idea has been rejected by the devs as late as yesterday and long before that too. If we could get a cert system in place, that would rock. But they already said no. And mini-tree is a departure from the "regular" user interface.
Kollos wrote:
There's a major and very key difference: a mini profession can be picked up by anyone and does not give them Droid Engineer abilities. It literally does not affect Droid Engineer in anyway.
Kollos wrote:
But that's all also irrelevant as far as improving this proposal goes. I'm still trying to think of ways to make this less onerous to me while simultaneously making it better overall... I just haven't come up with any yet. My main concern right now is that this simply isn't enough regardless of how it is done. Are you really going to be happy with CL 35 pets? Somehow, in the long run, I doubt it. This proposal is a gimped crafting class (the current one without any further improvements) combined with a gimped combat class. Isn't that less than satisfying for everyone? Wouldn't it be better to just do one thing, but do it well?
Man, this is getting tiresome. Not the constructive debate which has been awesome, but the mischaracterization of the proposal. The proposal states in Plain English that it is assumed that the devs will implement 1) bug fixes, 2) utlility modules, and 3) a variant of this proposal. How does that make this profession gimped? How does it diminish its carfting ability in ANY way?
To state that "This proposal is a gimped crafting class (the current one without any further improvements)" is completely false. Did you not read the revised proposal? I want to work with you, man, but statements like this make it hard to be trusting. Lets debate what is on the table, please.
As for the cap on droid levels, that's grounded in skillpoint expenditure and in game balance. I'd rather have a lvl 35 droideka than no droideka. The great thing is that this proposal is expandable such that down the line some new and creative combat droid engineer plan could be implemented on top of it for things like high lvl droids, special attacks, group tactics, heavy combat droids or vehicles etc. Something other than DH; something new cool and UNIQUE, not just a CH rip-off.
Kollos wrote:
Want to know something really strange? I would be more in favor of totally trashing DE as it currently stands and re-creating it from scratch to be combat only. No one can use droids but a Droid Engineer. It is no longer a crafting profession - it's 100% combat. In other words, start over from scratch and do Creature Handler right but with Droids. That would be a better profession from the game's point of view even though I would quit playing if it happened. At least that profession would be useful. I really don't believe that a hybrid can possibly be useful simply because it won't be very good at anything.
I am not sure hitting the delete key on the most star warsy profession besides Jedi is a good idea. The community has already rejected DH. Deleting DE in favor of that is not a good idea.
As for "I really don't believe that a hybrid can possibly be useful simply because it won't be very good at anything" -- I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one, but see my comments above regarding the crafting half of things.
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
Kollos wrote:
But that's all also irrelevant as far as improving this proposal goes. I'm still trying to think of ways to make this less onerous to me while simultaneously making it better overall... I just haven't come up with any yet. My main concern right now is that this simply isn't enough regardless of how it is done. Are you really going to be happy with CL 35 pets? Somehow, in the long run, I doubt it. This proposal is a gimped crafting class (the current one without any further improvements) combined with a gimped combat class. Isn't that less than satisfying for everyone? Wouldn't it be better to just do one thing, but do it well?
Man, this is getting tiresome. Not the constructive debate which has been awesome, but the mischaracterization of the proposal. The proposal states in Plain English that it is assumed that the devs will implement 1) bug fixes, 2) utlility modules, and 3) a variant of this proposal. How does that make this profession gimped? How does it diminish its carfting ability in ANY way?
To state that "This proposal is a gimped crafting class (the current one without any further improvements)" is completely false. Did you not read the revised proposal? I want to work with you, man, but statements like this make it hard to be trusting. Lets debate what is on the table, please.
As for the cap on droid levels, that's grounded in skillpoint expenditure and in game balance. I'd rather have a lvl 35 droideka than no droideka. The great thing is that this proposal is expandable such that down the line some new and creative combat droid engineer plan could be implemented on top of it for things like high lvl droids, special attacks, group tactics, heavy combat droids or vehicles etc. Something other than DH; something new cool and UNIQUE, not just a CH rip-off.
Kollos wrote:
Furthermore, I would argue that CL 35 combat droids are a gimped combat side to the profession as well simply because a Creature Handler gets so much more than that. So we end up with a profession that has less than its full potential as a crafting profession and also less than its full potential as a combat profession. How is that not gimped in both regards?
In the very early pages of this thread, I argued vigorously for a lowered cap on droid CL levels. In fact, here's what I said on page 2:
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
Everyone wanted certs for all players. That was our first choice. But this mini-tree idea has been rejected by the devs as late as yesterday and long before that too. If we could get a cert system in place, that would rock. But they already said no. And mini-tree is a departure from the "regular" user interface.
Kollos wrote:
There's a major and very key difference: a mini profession can be picked up by anyone and does not give them Droid Engineer abilities. It literally does not affect Droid Engineer in anyway.
You know Sodan, Kollos reservation is the same as mine: I would really like to see (if possible) all players have greater access to combat droids. The problem is, I can't figure out how do that short of a mini profession (which is not an option at this point).
I have been thinking about how to implement a new Variant to your proposal that would make both you and Kollos (and of course me) happy, but just haven't been able to make it work.
Here is as far as I have gotten: My thought was totake the +droidlevelmods that you have in the DEdroid handling tree, divide them up, and spread then throughout the professions. Example: +5 droid level for each novice elite profession you have, max value of +25. In other words, you would get a +5 in handling for each novice elite profession you have, and players are limited by the skill points they can spend (if all your skill pointscan afford is 3 elite professions, +15 is all you get), plus a hard cap. MDE would, of course, get extra +5.
Then you would use your idea of the +1 combat droids (in other words no one can use them until they get the +1), and impose 2 or 3 of those in certain skill boxes in certain professions.
Access to combat droids would be limited by BOTH elite professions AND picking up certain gatekeeping skills (creating several "hybrid" configurations instead of just a DE one). This would allow everyone to have access combat droids without having to grind DE, similar to what we would all like to see for market reasons.
HOWEVER, here is the problem I keep running into... This smells JUST like the certification proposals that the devs already killed because they "give additional checkers to all current professions without spending any further skillpoints." I can't think of any way the devs would accept it.
The thing I keep coming back to is that the only ways to keep from giving all professions additional checkersinvolve (1) creating new professions (or mini-professions), or (2) changing one of the existing professions to have the skills. Since #1 is not an option, 2 is probably the best bet.
I reallyHATE the idea of DE-only droids in any way, shape, or form...but how can we get around it without a new profession?
Kollos wrote:
Furthermore, I would argue that CL 35 combat droids are a gimped combat side to the profession as well simply because a Creature Handler gets so much more than that. So we end up with a profession that has less than its full potential as a crafting profession and also less than its full potential as a combat profession. How is that not gimped in both regards?
Kollos, you're looking at it too closely. Zoom out a little. 
Yes, looking at it from simply a crafting side or simply a combat side, it is gimped in either regard. But making DE half-crafting/half-combat would make us a Full profession, when taken as a whole.
2xGIMP=Whole 
If we are to become a full-fledged crafting profession, it won't happen anytime soon. The minor combat adjustments on test help a little, and the proposed stuff for Publish 8 might help (but I'm not holding my breath). The devs don't have the time, and may not be able to make time to make DE on par with WS or AS in terms of crafting. This adds a little combat ability to what we have, and comes closer to making us a fuller profession.
Personally, I'd love it if they would make DE a full-fledged crafting profession, and add a DC profession or a "mini-profession". I just don't see it happening anytime in the next 12 months, at least, and I don't want to wait that long to have fun. This is a compromise, I'm willing to give a little on what I want to make this profession more rewarding.
Daker-Naritus wrote:
HOWEVER, here is the problem I keep running into... This smells JUST like the certification proposals that the devs already killed because they "give additional checkers to all current professions without spending any further skillpoints." I can't think of any way the devs would accept it.
It is too much like it. Any kind of certs for everyone wont work. A mini profession wont work. Giving the combat droids straight to DEs wont work. A whole new profession wont work. I see Sodan's proposal as the only proposition on the table thus far as having any chance of being implemented in any reasonable amount of time pre- space expansion.
So we dont get any combat droids comparable to a MCH. Fine with me, I never watned to invalidate any other professions or make any identical ones.
For Sodan's proposition, here are a few key things I see
1. Skill point cost for combat capabilities. (Lets not get into "but most people already have that skill." Most people dont, because the same could be used for people with exploration 4 and dabbling in CH. Most people dont have these skills.) Someone who is a combat medic (damn their everlasting souls to hell! )would have to make tough choices about whether going for the ability to use the droid. Same with so many other profession.
2. Mid level CL. So CHs are still the greatest pet class, no one is invalidated.
3. Implementation. We know its in the devs ability to add stuff (skill mods)like this, considering the total revamp of CH. From the new corellian corvette dungeon, we know there's already 2 new droids that could easily be made into the combat droid category (roger rogers the battle droid, and the super battle droid). Not to mention the droideka, IG assassain droid, and *shudder* the upcomming "Blastomech"
The only hangup I have with the plan, is giving any kind of bonus to master DEs. A bonus would mean a MDE only droid (droideka?) else what would be the point of the extra bonus?I cant quite come to terms as whether that means giving free combat mods to MDEs already. Purely from trying to look at a dev standpoint, I can see that as being the only major blockage to all their past reasons for saying "No." But this has been adressed in one of the variants.
And, as I said earlier, this has been the only plan to come up I can see being implemented in any reasonable amount of time, and not having us hanging by a string for another six months.
Kollos wrote:
I stand by my argument, however. You can't have it both ways. There are pure combat professions, there are pure crafting professions, and there are mixed professions. [SNIP]
If the Devs implement all of our bug fixes, plus give us new (and useful) utility modules, plus implement some sort of variant of this proposal, then Droid Engineer would be overbalanced.
Yeah, like I said, man, we're goign to have to agree to disagree. I think this plan improves the DE profession at zero cost to craftign becase it makes combat droids available to those who spend the right skill points: Dabblers in 0040 DE and DEs in 0004 Marksman. This proposal creates a market for DEs to make amazing combat droids and allows combat-minded DEs to spend extra skillpoints in the marksman profession for the ability to combat droids. There is no need to compromise combat and crafting because DEs are spending EXTRA points in COMBAT ability OUTSIDE the DE profession. To wit:
MDE #1 -- No combat skills, no combat droids
MDE #2 -- Has 0004 Marksman, gets to use combat droids.
MDE #1 and #2 are equal crafters. MDE #2 can use combat droids, but only after spending the skillpoints in combat skills.
We're talkin past each other here for one reason: Playstyle. I beleive that people should have a CHOICE as to what kind of DE to play if they spend the extra points to do it. You want DE to remain what it is today which will result in no new combat droids for anyone anytime soon. Sure, you say you want a mini-tree, but that's dead and floating in the water. Mini-tree=no new combat droids for anyone.
I'm not sure there is any more point in discussing it because I think it just comes down to playstyle. As I have ALWAYS argued regarding a hybrid approach, hybrid is the middle ground that allows you to craft and me to play with my droideka. If you don't want combat droids, then don't use them or spend the points for them. Clearly there are a lot of people that do. It might be cool of you to support them in that cause even if you disagree; especially if its of no impact to your playstyle, except that you'll have more droids to sell.
You have yet to refute that this system proposed is somehow "wrong" other than as a matter of personal preference. Why? its grounded in the same skillpoint expenditure that is already fair and already in the game.
Kollos wrote:
Furthermore, I would argue that CL 35 combat droids are a gimped combat side to the profession as well simply because a Creature Handler gets so much more than that. So we end up with a profession that has less than its full potential as a crafting profession and also less than its full potential as a combat profession. How is that not gimped in both regards?
So in the same post you argue that we're overbalanced AND gimped on the combat side. As far as debate style goes, I think that stands for itself.
Substantively, I agree with Virtanis that in light of the armor nerf 35 droid levels, rather than 25, is where the balance should be. But this proposal has ALWAYS been flexible in that regard. We expressed the suggested droid levels as a range to allow the devs the final call based on factors like HAM, armor, special attacks and other considerations. The fundemantal trade off is still there: 78 Points for 35 Droid levels.
(Rancors are lvl 36s pets, BTW, to give you something to compare with.)
35 Droid lvls is fine with me. I don't care to be uber. This isn't the Droid Handler class we're proposing. Its a hybrid approach and its balanced according to skillpoint expenditures.
I've said before that this is not a PvP template, CHs rarely make for good PvP, especially the dabblers these days. Its far more suited to PvE and that's ok with me. I don't think adding lvl 40 droids (under ONE variant, MDEs get +5 droid levels) to the game is that objectionable, especially where the numbers add up.
Again, man. That is purely a question of playstyle. This proposal assumes bug fixes and addtional functionality. (Good luck selling entertainer modules to pennyless entertainers BTW). Under this proposal, you get to play in your style and I get to play in mine. If you're a good DE, you will MAKE MILLIONS selling to DE dabblers.
Kollos wrote:
If we're going to be given new checkers, let's at least get the same color checkers that we already have, okay?
Kollos wrote:
Sodan, it really doesn't seem like you want to work with me. It seems like all you want is for me (and everyone else) to convert.
"Your personal bias is showing" -- Remember when you told me that a long time ago? its the same thing here: I have nothing to hide. I have worked tirelessly to persuade people to support our cause. And I say "out" cause I am not alone in wanting this proposal to go forward.
Do I want consensus to coalesce around this proposal? Heck, yeah. I think its the one most likely to succeed because it speaks to the devs in their own language and tries to avoid the paths they've told us not to go down. And yes, I am trying to pursuade you too. But again we want different things from the DE experiance and that is ok with me. Come over to our side and sell some combat droids, Kollos!
Don't forget that I was the one who solicited YOUR opinion to begin with.
Kollos wrote:
Here's a question for the Devs, really, but maybe others will have an idea of an answer. What CL of pet is workable for everyone if that pet cannot be healed by anyone but a Droid Engineer?
Huh? Droid stims are usable by all.
Since Droids are being nerfed into oblivion with the removal of their armor, would it be reasonable for CL 20 combat droids to exist if the only people who can use Droid Stims are Droid Engineers?
They already said no to CL 10+ droids without any skills/time expended.
If CL 10 pets are currently balanced, then part of that balance equation includes their ability to be healed in combat. How much CL is it worth to remove that ability to be healed? Surely at least double the CL, wouldn't you think? Now allow them to be healed, but only by one specific profession. Doesn't it make sense that Droid Engineers are the only people who can repair (heal) droids?
Huh? Droid stims are usable by all. Not sure where you're going with this.
EricTheGreat wrote:
2. Mid level CL. So CHs are still the greatest pet class, no one is invalidated.
This is a unique profession: Hybrid DE. It has a craftign component and with agumentation through a substantial expenditure of time and skillpoints, it gains a combat components. Its not a CH class though. The hybrid approach reflects the unique assembly of highly technical droid knowledge/understanding and tactical combat skills needed to give geeks the understanding of how not to get shot while yelling a droid.
It is the way DE should always have been. We make them, we know them best, but we're not geeks with guns straight out of the academy; we need to go out there and learn combat tactics. This is a unique proposal for a unique profession.