Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Sodan's Hybrid DE Proposal
It does hold water... those droids are NPC's and cannot be player controlled. The Droidekasare leftovers of the Trade Federation's invasion of Lok, etc, etc, etc. This discussion revolves around a method to get droids into player's hands, and, players shouldn't have control over extremely powerful droids that the Empire has outlawed at this time in the game. Even Runesabre said this much in thebig Droid Invasion thread.SOE already dropped the ball with Creature pets and immersion, andI seriously believethey're not going to make that same mistake again with droids.
Hang the Empire! The Imperials have Stormtroopers, Dark Stormtroopers and AT-ST's! So let's go for only Rebels having the 10+ Combat Droids! That ought to tweak both the Imperials AND the Devs! LOL
Hmmmm, egads, after making thatstatement in a joking manner, but then reading it over again, maybe it's not such a bad idea after all! Didn't they say in the Alderaan 3 notes that "The rebels better get busy, or they're going to lose this one?" (paraphrased)
So Combat Droids are illegal, so what? Don't a lot of Rebels have them now? Aren't they undetectable in the "Imp Letdown" Scans? Muuaahahaha! Hang the Empire! And don't limit the highest level to 25 either! I'm sure many of the MDE's who have been so since shortly after launch could experiment a Combat Droid up to 35 if given free rein! But do it for the Rebel cause!
Let's get this profession directly involved in the GCW, and not just a bunch of utility-droid crafters. I enjoy a little role playing, and take any opportunity to bash an Imp or two. It's what the game is all about, after all! I think the Devs would love it, and Lucas, and Georgie-pie, a whole profession totally commited to one faction or the other! (As an aside, there could always be those DE's who hadn't "seen the light (side)" and tried either undercutting the Rebel DE's or trying to come up with their own Combat Droids to retaliate.
Ah well, since I can't ban Imperial Guilds from my house with my vendors, it probably wouldn't float anyway. :->
Yep, I think high lvl combat droids should be subject to imperial scans. If there are otherways to involve the GWC that would be cool to. I wish R2 units were required to assist in the slicing of one of the base terminals to destroy a base. That would be cool.
Kniol wrote:
Virtanis:
In regards to your:
It does hold water... those droids are NPC's and cannot be player controlled. The Droidekasare leftovers of the Trade Federation's invasion of Lok, etc, etc, etc. This discussion revolves around a method to get droids into player's hands, and, players shouldn't have control over extremely powerful droids that the Empire has outlawed at this time in the game. Even Runesabre said this much in thebig Droid Invasion thread.SOE already dropped the ball with Creature pets and immersion, andI seriously believethey're not going to make that same mistake again with droids.
Hang the Empire! The Imperials have Stormtroopers, Dark Stormtroopers and AT-ST's! So let's go for only Rebels having the 10+ Combat Droids! That ought to tweak both the Imperials AND the Devs! LOL
Hmmmm, egads, after making thatstatement in a joking manner, but then reading it over again, maybe it's not such a bad idea after all! Didn't they say in the Alderaan 3 notes that "The rebels better get busy, or they're going to lose this one?" (paraphrased)
So Combat Droids are illegal, so what? Don't a lot of Rebels have them now? Aren't they undetectable in the "Imp Letdown" Scans? Muuaahahaha! Hang the Empire! And don't limit the highest level to 25 either! I'm sure many of the MDE's who have been so since shortly after launch could experiment a Combat Droid up to 35 if given free rein! But do it for the Rebel cause!
Let's get this profession directly involved in the GCW, and not just a bunch of utility-droid crafters. I enjoy a little role playing, and take any opportunity to bash an Imp or two. It's what the game is all about, after all! I think the Devs would love it, and Lucas, and Georgie-pie, a whole profession totally commited to one faction or the other! (As an aside, there could always be those DE's who hadn't "seen the light (side)" and tried either undercutting the Rebel DE's or trying to come up with their own Combat Droids to retaliate.
Ah well, since I can't ban Imperial Guilds from my house with my vendors, it probably wouldn't float anyway. :->
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
Yep, I think high lvl combat droids should be subject to imperial scans. If there are otherways to involve the GWC that would be cool to. I wish R2 units were required to assist in the slicing of one of the base terminals to destroy a base. That would be cool.
Kniol wrote:
Let's get this profession directly involved in the GCW, and not just a bunch of utility-droid crafters. I enjoy a little role playing, and take any opportunity to bash an Imp or two. It's what the game is all about, after all! I think the Devs would love it, and Lucas, and Georgie-pie, a whole profession totally commited to one faction or the other! (As an aside, there could always be those DE's who hadn't "seen the light (side)" and tried either undercutting the Rebel DE's or trying to come up with their own Combat Droids to retaliate.
Tallin, I'm asking YOU for your opinion because I want to hear it. And I have not responded to his arguments by saying thier BS. Substance has answered substance where substance was presented.
Icarus-6 wrote:
Don't ask me. Ask Drakar. I'm not defending his position so much as just his right to have a position and asking that if he says something that you think is BS then say why you think it's BS. Then he has the option to clarify his statement or to try and see things your way. If all you do is say it's BS he can't really do much but try repeating himself, and no one wants that.
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
...Thanks for trying to diffuse the flames. I think we're on our way there. But let me ask you this: there are LOTS of overlapping pre-reqs in this game. Why is that not ok here?
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
...This is what I'M talking about...
The reason I jumped in was because it felt like you weren't addressing why his statements were wrong, you were just saying they were wrong and in some cases I don't think they were thegross distortions you were claiming. I think they were perception issues and they were called lies.
I think lots of people are getting worked up and are loosing objectivity. Drakar is typing things without thinking them through. You're typing things like 'this is crappy crap straight from the crapper'. I took Drakar to task because I'm not taking sides in this. I think both sides need to take collective deep breaths, step away from their keyboards for 20 minutes, and then try to respond as factually as possible rather than throwing out half thought up numbers and ad hominem attacks.
Icarus-6 wrote:
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
...This is what I'M talking about...
The reason I jumped in was because it felt like you weren't addressing why his statements were wrong, you were just saying they were wrong and in some cases I don't think they were thegross distortions you were claiming. I think they were perception issues and they were called lies.
I think lots of people are getting worked up and are loosing objectivity. Drakar is typing things without thinking them through. You're typing things like 'this is crappy crap straight from the crapper'. I took Drakar to task because I'm not taking sides in this. I think both sides need to take collective deep breaths, step away from their keyboards for 20 minutes, and then try to respond as factually as possible rather than throwing out half thought up numbers and ad hominem attacks.
I'll agree to this. Reducing this proposal to spending 100 credits and grindign for 15 minutes is BS and I wont stop saying so.
Daker is spreading misinformation and half-truths. I apologize if I mischaracterized any of his points in my rush to reply, however.
In general, though, its true that this debate goes going fine until Daker showed up. People disagreed, but it was as to substance.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AudioOrgana wrote:
/sigh
Kollos, did you read the initail posting and the variants?
Both of those things are covered. In a way, this is basicly the same thing as a mini-profession, it just has overlapping prerequisites.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Damn it people, we read it, we don't agree...please try to be open-minded.
The problem isn't that it is like a mini profession, the problem is that the mini profession is contained INSIDE the DE profession, for no good reason (other than the weak, self serving argument that it is "too hard" for the devs to cut and paste of the skill tree template and create 2 trees instead of reorganizing the 4 current trees of DE)
This encourages players to take up all the DE prequisites to get combat droids, thereby making it very easy for those players to build on those abilities and flood the market with DEs.
DEs get the ability to make droids because they spend all the prerequitie points in crafting to get that ability. What this plan is suggesting is that combat players should be allowed to spend prerequisite points for great combat droid abilities (through the artisan tree) and then finish the rest of the DE tree with NO OTHER crafting prerequisites.
This would be the worst possible outcome.
If a Master Weaponsmith (a master of crafting) wants to use a weapon, he has to spend a bunch of COMBAT skill points to do so. If a master Weaponsmith wants to get even better at crafting (building on prior experience) he can take up DE without further prerequisites.
This plan turns that whole concept, and the banance of the game, on its head and gives crafting players great combat ability (CL30+ pets) with very little additional combat skill point investment, and it gives combat players great crafting ability (DE) with very little additional skill point investment.
It's just not right...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's again, beside the point - it seems that with the reasons given for dissention each person who has disagreed simply hasn't fully understood what is being proposed before speaking out against it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What I understand is that you are requiring people to invade into the DE profession to get combat droid handling ability. What I understand is that DE is not a magical profession, and there is no reason that mastering any combination of other multiple professions could not open the same "mini-tree." What I understand is that forsing some players to master a tree (artisan and DE) that they will never use otherwise will discourage many potential customers from being able to use and buy combat droids. What I understand is that some of the people who do actually get combat droids by learning the DE tree will go ahead and master it, thereby further eroding the potential droid market. What I understand is that there is no reason for it, it is not the best solution, and I really don't like it. What I understand is that I want things to be done right....not just half-assed because that is what is easiest for the devs.
What I understand, is that this argument is being driven by master DEs who want combat ability without spending any prerequisites for it, without any consideration of what this would do to the DE market, or the overall combat balance of the game.
What else do I really need to understand?
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
Tallin, I'm asking YOU for your opinion because I want to hear it. And I have not responded to his arguments by saying thier BS. Substance has answered substance where substance was presented.
My perspective, right or wrong, was that on a couple of posts you did just jump on him and call him a liar. Maybe you reiterated a position but it didn't seem like you really tried to provide substance to refute him.
Of course that's just my perception. I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, just that this is what I saw and why I jumped in.
As for my feelings on the proposal, like I said early on I still have some concerns about statements made by the Devs that run counter to this proposal. However I also think the statements were foolish and the Devs may realize that they can't really say no new certs ever to existing classes (because otherwise no current class can ever be given new weapons). I am just concerned that unless that road block is removed first that a good proposal could stumble over it.
My other concern was addressed when the idea came up of putting +1 Combat Droid in the combat box (whatever it may be). I was worried about the Devs not wanting to rewrite rules to make skills behave in a new fashion. This completely fixes that concern.
To be totally honest I wouldhave come up witheither a mini skill tree or even a new, well developed class. People who want to control droids can take that class. People who want to build droids and command them just take both classes. However, I can't see anything substantially wrong with the proposal as it is and certainly wouldn't argue against it. If we got it I would be quite happy with it.
So the answer is I am not going to champion it as wonderful and miraculous and the perfect solution but I am certainly not going to decry it as a terrible idea and unbalanced, either. It's a good solid proposal, just not the one I would have come up with.
<Hang on wall next to picture of Sodan with Droideka named SpiderLegs>
Icarus-6 wrote:
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
Tallin, I'm asking YOU for your opinion because I want to hear it. And I have not responded to his arguments by saying thier BS. Substance has answered substance where substance was presented.
My perspective, right or wrong, was that on a couple of posts you did just jump on him and call him a liar. Maybe you reiterated a position but it didn't seem like you really tried to provide substance to refute him.
Of course that's just my perception. I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, just that this is what I saw and why I jumped in.
As for my feelings on the proposal, like I said early on I still have some concerns about statements made by the Devs that run counter to this proposal. However I also think the statements were foolish and the Devs may realize that they can't really say no new certs ever to existing classes (because otherwise no current class can ever be given new weapons). I am just concerned that unless that road block is removed first that a good proposal could stumble over it.
My other concern was addressed when the idea came up of putting +1 Combat Droid in the combat box (whatever it may be). I was worried about the Devs not wanting to rewrite rules to make skills behave in a new fashion. This completely fixes that concern.
To be totally honest I wouldhave come up witheither a mini skill tree or even a new, well developed class. People who want to control droids can take that class. People who want to build droids and command them just take both classes. However, I can't see anything substantially wrong with the proposal as it is and certainly wouldn't argue against it. If we got it I would be quite happy with it.
So the answer is I am not going to champion it as wonderful and miraculous and the perfect solution but I am certainly not going to decry it as a terrible idea and unbalanced, either. It's a good solid proposal, just not the one I would have come up with.
duncje wrote:
"It's not balanced."--It costs one more skill point (78 to 77) to get the CL30ish combat droids in this proposal, than it costs to be able to control CL 36 pets. That's balance. You want to add a separate mini profession that would be far tougher to balance, and where would you put it?
Duncje,
For the FOURTH time.... Simple skill points is NOT (NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT)equal to combat ability.
By your logic a master weaponsmith/armorsmith/chef should have the same combat ability as a bounty hunter, just because they spend the same skill points.
That is NOT balance.
If you spend skill points on combat ability, you get combat ability. If you spend skill points on crafting. If you spend a little on both, you get a little of both.
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
Uh.. no one uses pets in PvP man. Get with it.
Daker-Naritus wrote:
Shian_Tavkin wrote:
Dont BS me Daker, read what I said. Combat Specialists. A Commando is not a combat specialist, nor is a Rifleman etc etc. The PvP templates for the combat specialists do not have a single point free for anything Artisan, they are all min/maxed in a variety of combat professions and you know it.
Anyone who has an uber pvp template is not going to be benefited that much by a CL20-30 droid anyway. How does that limit them at all?
Additionally, they spend a truckload of skill points on COMBAT NOT CRAFTING. If a player divides their skills between crafting and combat, they deserve to be weaker.
What you are suggesting is that players can now "have their cake and eat it too." By investing some skill points in combat, and the rest in crafting as a DE, but be as powerful as the uber pvp players because they also get an additional CL20-30 pet.
That is exactly what I am telling you is wrong and will never fly with the devs.
Sodan, you misunderstand. The "uber pvp" templates I am referring to (just because I don't know what else to call them) are the same templates that players are using in PvE to tank every mob in the game.
I am talking about combat power in PvE, not PvP. I couldn't give a damn about pvp (as evidenced by my commando/MDE setup), and the devs couldn't either. All they care about is PvE tanking ability.
You are giving a bunch of combat tanking ability to crafters...that is not balanced, and is wrong.
I think you're assuming that DE stuff is in line with the value of Armoursmith, Weaponsmith, Chef, or any of the other crafting professions, which it's not. Our products are far less valuable than what those other professions can produce.
Now, if WS's made nothing but terrible guns, I'd have no problems shouting for giving them a boost in some way (either being able to use them, or whatnot) but no. They form the backbone and the entire game revolves around the product they and armoursmiths make (and then for those who really want an edge, chef and tailor provided it). Droids, by comparison, are crumbs on the big SWG plate. None of the other professions are soley reliant on droids in any way, and TH kindly stated that there is no intention to ever make it that way.
So, now taht we've established the 'under-balance' of DEs, you can hopefully see another way in which this actually brings us on par with the rest of the game, if not for the other reasons listed above.
Message Edited by TheWoody on 03-08-2004 12:40 PM