Droid Engineer Archive

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Straker_Atrella wrote:

The problem as I see it is this. No offense to anybody here at all. Yet many people "say" they just want Hand crafting to be more viable. Yet at some level, they see this as a chance to compete with the established powergame industrialist crafters. They see hand crafting as a chanceto give the little guy some love.

I see where you're going with this, though it isn't my motivation. I'm already an established crafter and have no wish to really increase my sales any more than they already are. Some arguments are leaning this way though.

Yet the truth is that it wouldn't be long until the powergamer crafters had hundreds of these hand crafted items on their vendors. They have more resources and time. Then again, we would be right back here talking about how people can't compete.

I doubt most powergamers would do this, but thats just my opinion. I don't think most WS's or AS's will take the time to hand build the large quantity of items they sell in a day when they can make many more factory goods and still do other things in game (look for loot components, manage factories/harvesters, kill things, whatever they normally do in their spare time).

I'm not adverse to a change, I like the idea of loot stuff or the CIC idea the best. I just want to make sure it is being done for the right reasons.

Also on a side note.... people keep minimalizing that Factories take lots, saying lots swaps make them pointless. Now everybody lot swaps, the % is in fact probably pretty low. It's just that the people who do ususally do it to a massive degree. Plus any Factory vs Hand crafting changes need to be balanced with the assumption that lot swaps are going away.

Even without lot swapping, resources are cheap enough you really don't need to run your own harvesters (I haven't for about 10 months now), most large industrialists I know have their vendors in large malls so thats not taking up their lots, and I don't know how many factories some of them use but I don't see how you could need more than 10.

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Jenden wrote:

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Straker_Atrella wrote:

The problem as I see it is this. No offense to anybody here at all. Yet many people "say" they just want Hand crafting to be more viable. Yet at some level, they see this as a chance to compete with the established powergame industrialist crafters. They see hand crafting as a chanceto give the little guy some love.

I see where you're going with this, though it isn't my motivation. I'm already an established crafter and have no wish to really increase my sales any more than they already are. Some arguments are leaning this way though.

Yet the truth is that it wouldn't be long until the powergamer crafters had hundreds of these hand crafted items on their vendors. They have more resources and time. Then again, we would be right back here talking about how people can't compete.

I doubt most powergamers would do this, but thats just my opinion. I don't think most WS's or AS's will take the time to hand build the large quantity of items they sell in a day when they can make many more factory goods and still do other things in game (look for loot components, manage factories/harvesters, kill things, whatever they normally do in their spare time).

I'm not adverse to a change, I like the idea of loot stuff or the CIC idea the best. I just want to make sure it is being done for the right reasons.

Also on a side note.... people keep minimalizing that Factories take lots, saying lots swaps make them pointless. Now everybody lot swaps, the % is in fact probably pretty low. It's just that the people who do ususally do it to a massive degree. Plus any Factory vs Hand crafting changes need to be balanced with the assumption that lot swaps are going away.

Even without lot swapping, resources are cheap enough you really don't need to run your own harvesters (I haven't for about 10 months now), most large industrialists I know have their vendors in large malls so thats not taking up their lots, and I don't know how many factories some of them use but I don't see how you could need more than 10.

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Straker_Atrella wrote:

The problem as I see it is this. No offense to anybody here at all. Yet many people "say" they just want Hand crafting to be more viable. Yet at some level, they see this as a chance to compete with the established powergame industrialist crafters. They see hand crafting as a chanceto give the little guy some love.


I don't want to prop up the 'little guy'. If they want to actually really compete with the big boys, they will have to play/work as such. This ain't about getting a free ride.

I may well be about ensure that there's never an economic production/distribution equivalent of an "I Win" button, however. This will be way more difficult to pull off then some black and white combat balance/revamp.

That's why I started kickin' around this stuff now...

Yet the truth is that it wouldn't be long until the powergamer crafters had hundreds of these hand crafted items on their vendors. They have more resources and time.

But they'd have to commit the same amount of time to craft (if hand-craft was the thing that got item X to 'perfection') as the little guy. In that regard...the game is balanced, yes?

Note: I know, I know..you'll bring up resource hoarding or whatever other example. /sigh


Then again, we would be right back here talking about how people can't compete.


What I want to steer clear of is any notion that there's no difference between:

• People that "can't" compete
  
  
  ....And...
  
  


• People that "won't" compete (intelligently)

One of them (the latter) is fine in game. Leave it alone.

However, we need to take a good look to ensure that the former is not also the case in game. That's where the "I Win" buttons start to happen.

I'm not adverse to a change, I like the idea of loot stuff or the CIC idea the best. I just want to make sure it is being done for the right reasons.

Then again, nothing may happen. /shrug

This thread isn't leading to a change. It's all just talk. If something can come of it that makes the entire crafting 'game' better...I think it served its purpose.

Also on a side note.... people keep minimalizing that Factories take lots, saying lots swaps make them pointless. Now everybody lot swaps, the % is in fact probably pretty low.

I don't(and Iknow many/most don't either). 1 house, 2 factories and 2Heavy Harvs running on whatever.

That's all I need.


It's just that the people who do ususally do it to a massive degree.


Yup.


Plus any Factory vs Hand crafting changes need to be balanced with the assumption that lot swaps are going away.


Mmmm...but also balanced with the possibility that people will (again) use the system in a way that's not intended and ends up causing different or worse problems.

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/bow

Respectfully,

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Straker_Atrella wrote:

Yet many people "say" they just want Hand crafting to be more viable. Yet at some level, they see this as a chance to compete with the established powergame industrialist crafters.
...snip...
Now(sic) everybody lot swaps, the % is in fact probably pretty low.

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I have no designs on hurting industrial crafters like, well, me. I also think that lot swapping or multi-account crafting is _required_ to be on the top in most galaxies. I take it you don't think this is the case?

I think the meat of this threads' discussion comes from, "why would anyone want to hand craft?" Many posting here about a factory nerf, skip right over this point assuming that the answer to this will be "No one in their right mind should ever want to hand craft" and it will stay that way till the end of time. Any attempts to change this "fact" will either do nothing to help, or it will actually hurt their business. If you can't ponder on what kinds of things would be required to make hand crafting entertaining on it's own, then it's just not construtive to post about how this is all just a ruse by unhappy crafters who want a piece of the pie. I've made millions in crafting, and I'm ready to see crafting be fun, not a path to running factories and basically a ghost of Miner.

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TheRealTK421 wrote:

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Jenden wrote:

yea, for pretty much everyone but DE this isn't an issue, they've got a pretty good decay or consumption system in place.

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That's another huge reason why this entire thread is just so much hot air, right now.

Make no mistake about it......decay (for us) comes first. Period.

/bow
Respectfully,

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How about how even now, Bounty Hunter droids that have "Use" stat of however many, upon hitting 0 stay in your inventory for quite some time and continue to produce droids long after they have no number for "uses remaining" displayed in inventory? I'd say one of our biggest repeat buyer markets for droids is not even close to viable when you can get the majority of the investigation tree in BH with one crate of each type of droid instead of dozens.

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Snikrop wrote:

How about how even now, Bounty Hunter droids that have "Use" stat of however many, upon hitting 0 stay in your inventory for quite some time and continue to produce droids long after they have no number for "uses remaining" displayed in inventory? I'd say one of our biggest repeat buyer markets for droids is not even close to viable when you can get the majority of the investigation tree in BH with one crate of each type of droid instead of dozens.

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This is an issue, yes....but decay goes much more to our core issues.

I'd rather see decay done (right/well) than a BH droid fix. In the long run, I know which one would have a more positive impact on us.



/bow

Respectfully,

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Straker_Atrella wrote:

...but to many people it's not so much the fun of crafting they love, it's the fun and challenge of running a successful business.

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Okay...let's take this, then...

Can a hand-crafter type have a "successful" business in relation to that of a factory/Industrialist?


That gets us into the issue of..."What is 'success' in SWG as a crafter/businessperson". I do NOT want to get into that (cause I don't think that's a question that really can be answered).


/bow

Respectfully,

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Snikrop wrote:

And you've identified the key issue, hand crafting isn't fun.

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By the same token, I don't find running factories particularly "fun" either.

That's a topic that could bear some discussion as well.


/bow

Respectfully,

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Snikrop wrote:

How about how even now, Bounty Hunter droids that have "Use" stat of however many, upon hitting 0 stay in your inventory for quite some time and continue to produce droids long after they have no number for "uses remaining" displayed in inventory? I'd say one of our biggest repeat buyer markets for droids is not even close to viable when you can get the majority of the investigation tree in BH with one crate of each type of droid instead of dozens.

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TheRealTK421 wrote:

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Snikrop wrote:

And you've identified the key issue, hand crafting isn't fun.

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By the same token, I don't find running factories particularly "fun" either.

That's a topic that could bear some discussion as well.
/bow
Respectfully,

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Certainly, but it's not painful in the carpal tunnel way that hand crafting is.

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JavelinCatcher wrote:

Second, Bounty Hunters are our friends! Make good friends with them! They've paid for my harvesters many times over very early on in my career. They also like knowing you and knowing they can come get Seekers, Arakyds, and bombs from you.

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I've always loved the way you think, JC.

Now there's a guy, folks, that can run a DE business...



/bow

Respectfully,