Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Discussion: Hand-crafting vs. Factory-crafting (relating to Quality of product)
Malitevv wrote:
We debated this notion very early in the thread. I'm fine with giving things the personal touch for hand crafting, but it's not generally true that hand-crafted goods are really better in RL, so there is no justification for making hand crafted goods generally better than factory crafted ones based on this notion.
ArveMennderchukk wrote:
Rather than listen to what other people have to say, Drashk blithely continues to assert that handcrafting should somehow be an alternative to factory crafting and further should be better.
Never mind the fact that just about everyone else has come to some kind of concensus of shared compromise, Drashk just continues to push his agenda for a factory nerf.
It seems like there has to be some sort of motivation that he has not clarified -- certainly none of his arguments thus far have been compelling. He just baldly asserts that handcrafting should be better than factory crafting like it should be self-apparent.
WHY???
Who does this serve? Why is it good to destroy the fun of the many just to make Drashk happy?
LonelyGhost wrote:So we should listen to you blithely preach that *your* view of this issue is "better" and abandon all our own thoughts and views? No one tells you what you should do in this THEORETICAL discussion, and you have no right to belittle others. It invalidates anything good you might be trying to achieve.
No, you shouldn't blindly listen to what I have to say. Make up your own mind. I'm just arguing that people should be honest.
However, neither Drashk nor TK have been clear in describing who their proposed factory nerf is supposed to benefit.
Hypothetically it is to benefit the casual player, but it is pretty clear that factories exist to benefit the casual player. Who does the factory nerf then benefit?
Malitevv wrote:
In any case. I am now confused again. Can we get a clear statement about what the issuewe are really trying to addressis here? Sorry, Drashk, but your comments are confusing the issue.
I think that the reason you are being confused is that I am trying to argue more then one point, but am doing so on a per response basis. All of what I have written must be looked at from the perspective of the whole debate and benefitting more then a single playstyle.
You mentioned earlier something about the 1000 schematic limit possibly being the problem. As painfull as it would be to Droid Engineers, when you look at the effect it would have on an item such as an Advanced Droid Brain, I think that the 100 item limit would more then likely quell many of the problems that we are starting to see.
Jenden wrote:
The only reason I can afford to stay in business is I've been around since launch and have an amazing reputation on the server (mainly since I've been around forever). That was what I was getting at, hand crafting should be competative.
Thanks Jenden.
That was basically the answer that I was looking for, since I know that you are one of the few primary hand crafters out there.
Factory crafting is currently looked at as the crafting standard.
Let us look at what we have learned about things that become standard
- CH was considered standard for the serious Soloist. Where are CHs now?
- At-Sts were considered the standard in PvP and PvE. What happened to them?
- 1 Pet, 1 Droid, and 3 Faction Perks was once the main stay of may combat types. What happened to them?
What I am trying to get at here is that if we don't start thinking about solutions to bigger problems in certain aspects of the game, we may see a large hammer come down on us.
At some point in time, down the line, something is going to be done about the game economy. The DEVs have stated as much, though it has been some time now since the issue was brought up.
I know that this topic might not be considered as part of the main body of the topic we are currently discussing, however it does fit into the 'grand scheme of things' when talking about something that would effect all crafting professions. If some sort of Crafting Revamp is to happen down the road, we need to look at all aspects of a Hand Crafting vs Factory Crafting Discusssion in regards to all crafting professions. If we aren't able to help a development process, through our Correspondents, we may get steam rolled in the whole design of such a Revamp, if it was to happen.
I will intial Publish 10 scare that popped up with Merchant Vendors and Hologrind credit system. If it had not been for the Correspondents, and to some extent the direct community, it would have been a lot worse when the changes hit Live.
Drashk wrote:
At some point in time, down the line, something is going to be done about the game economy. The DEVs have stated as much, though it has been some time now since the issue was brought up.
So the devs are going to consistently cut off their noses to spite their faces? Do they care about keeping a player base?
If you had couched your perspective from the beginning as being a defense action against an even larger (and more insane) nerfing coming down the pike from the devs, everything you were saying earlier would have made a whole lot more sense.
However, do we as the paying customers have to accept these absurd policy decisions without attempting some sort of action other than damage mitigation? Can't we work to prevent insane nerfs altogether?
If, in fact, your suggestions are at root motivated by an attempt to pre-emptively nerf crafting more lightly than it would nerfed by the heavy dev hand, then your coquettish behavior with respect to stating motivation makes more sense.
If that is the case, could this instead be discussed from the perspective of what is feared the devs intend to do, divining what their motivations to do those things might be, and then designing preventive counter-measures in such a way to minimize the impact of their rogue behavior?
Arve,
You are looking too deeply into what I am saying, once again. Many in this forum already know me as being someone who is a bit of a 'What If' kind of guy.
We do know that Combat is getting a huge make over in the not to distant future. We also know that other aspects of the game will be effected by a Combat Balance/Revamp. We also know that the DEVs have looked at the game economy and have stated that something will be done at some point down the line to balance out certain areas.
One thing that can be said in the defense of the DEVs is that the orginial leadership of SW:AED is no longer around. Quite a few of the DEVs that we saw shaping this game, in its youth, are now gone. I'm not saying that it was the decisions of these DEVs that have put us in the realm that we are now, but I will say that the people who are 'running the show' now are much more in tune with using this games potential for growth.
Unfortuately, many will see some changes, that could happen to this game, as huge beat downs with the Nerf bat. Others will see that it isall part of the evolution of the game in the hopes thatwe can better seeit to itsfruition.
Galaxies has a lot of room to improve and grow, however as all things that growit will not be without our growing pains.
Drashk wrote:Ya know Arve,
This is a discussion. This is not a thread to make personal attacks at someone just because you do not agree with what they are saying or have an issue with them because they are/were part of the Correspondents program. I have been around long enough to see through the guise of someone on the forums arguing a case yet doing so while trying to strike barbs at someone on a personal level.
If by this you mean that you once used to be a correspondent, I had no idea. Any criticisms that I have made of your arguments have been solely on the basis of what you have said in this thread. Before this thread, I didn't know you from a hole in the wall.
Half of your posts that you have made have been geared towards these sort of slinging tactics.
I'm not really interested in getting into this sort of he-said, she-said personal confrontation discussion. That's meta to this entire discussion and not really relevant. I never even heard of you before this thread, so it's not like there's any sort of previous history or grudge or anything motivating my disagreement with your perspective. Nope, the reason I disagree with you is not because I don't like you -- I'm sure you're a perfectly decent person. The reason I disagree with you is because I think you are WRONG.
This is the last I am going to comment on your chosen way of behavior. If you still feel the need to take things out in a personal manner, then send me a PM. I really don't want this thread, or one like it, locked because it turns into an anti-Correspondent or flamefest. If you have respect for the rest of the community, you will desist with the personal attacks.
I really don't appreciate you constantly turning my disagreement with your argument into me somehow engaging in a personal attack on you. I really couldn't care less what your current or previous statuses with SOE or the Queen of England are/were. I am highly invested in the current topic of discussion and I think that you are advocating a fundamentally flawed perspective with respect to crafting in SWG. My arguments are motivated solely at exploring the space suggested by TK and, as a group, coming to a common understanding of all the contributing elements. For this reason, I have repeatedly asked you to further describe the motivations, supporting reasoning, valid arguments, and benefited constituencies of your advocated approach. Rather than substantively address these questions (which you have consistently chosen not to answer), you have instead chosen to /shakefist at me and accuse me of engaging in personal attacks. I don't have a problem with you at all. I disagree with your perspective and have asked you repeatedly to explain it further. How is that a personal attack?
ArveMennderchukk wrote:
Hypothetically it is to benefit the casual player, but it is pretty clear that factories exist to benefit the casual player. Who does the factory nerf then benefit?This comment right here narrows down were the problem is. Any change that is to be made is not being done so to cater to any one specific group.
You can't have it both ways. You can't say that any change isn't being made to cater to one group and then also say that "handcrafters" need to be provided some sort of boost. Those are two diametrically opposed statements. Clearly giving handcrafters a boost caters to handcrafters.
Although I have asked this question in vain multiple times in the past in this thread already (and have garnered little except accusations of personal attacks), I will ask you again: what kind of player is supposed to benefit from your proposed factory nerfing?
We are talking about more then Casual Players, Hand Crafters, Factory Crafters, Power Gamers. We are talking about the Crafting game in general. Casual vs Power and Hand vs Factory are just 2 of the many issues that some sort of Crafting Revamp would touch. I am a fault for bringing this all up in a thread specificly titled Hand Crafting vs Factory Crafting, instead of a thread entitled 'Crafting Revamp - What are your thoughts'.
The back and forth debating that we are seeing right now, goes back to why I really enjoy this community so much. Its good to see that a 'hot' topic has stired up a few people into posting more regularly again.
Drashk wrote:Arve,
You are looking too deeply into what I am saying, once again. Many in this forum already know me as being someone who is a bit of a 'What If' kind of guy.
We do know that Combat is getting a huge make over in the not to distant future. We also know that other aspects of the game will be effected by a Combat Balance/Revamp. We also know that the DEVs have looked at the game economy and have stated that something will be done at some point down the line to balance out certain areas.
One thing that can be said in the defense of the DEVs is that the orginial leadership of SW:AED is no longer around. Quite a few of the DEVs that we saw shaping this game, in its youth, are now gone. I'm not saying that it was the decisions of these DEVs that have put us in the realm that we are now, but I will say that the people who are 'running the show' now are much more in tune with using this games potential for growth.
Unfortuately, many will see some changes, that could happen to this game, as huge beat downs with the Nerf bat. Others will see that it is all part of the evolution of the game in the hopes that we can better see it to its fruition.
Galaxies has a lot of room to improve and grow, however as all things that grow it will not be without our growing pains.
To my ears, the translation of your above statement is: the cool game systems which attracted and held the current player base are going to be scrapped in favor of a completely different vision. Like it or lump it.
Is it just me or does this seem like foolhardy business practice? If they want to create a whole new game, aren't they better off doing that? Why not fix bugs rather than muck around and damage systems to the point where they need to be scrapped? Most of the problems that the game currently suffers from are the result of the new dev team haphazardly messing with the original design vision to the point where it becomes non-functional.
You lost me. There are some things I expect to remain fundamentally the same.
TheRealTK421 wrote:
ArveMennderchukk wrote:
How can it be the best stuff if it didn't have rare loots? Couldn't have been armor. Couldn't have been weapons. Couldn't have been medic buffs. Must have been droids or food/drink.
Items made with rare loots are good examples of the system balancing for factory use v. hand-crafting. That system has had its share of problems, however. I'm not saying those should go away or get knocked down. Pointing to any specific example of how things are now is sorta moot in my thinking cause I'm talking about a change to crafting (at its core) that would mean that we'd have to forget all that we know now about how "quality" crafting works.
Being able to point to example X or item Y that shows there's already some hand-crafted items that ARE the best is fine. However, what I'm trying to get at here is how to ensure that all items can be manufactured in a similar situation but not always with loot drops as the key element that makes it rare.
As much as I like the idea of puzzles, I seriously doubt they will have the ability to create a set of puzzles to insert into the crafting process that will have enough flexibility and variety to stay interesting for more than say 5 or 10 tries. After which, the puzzles would just become an annoying and pointless grind because it's likely to be mindless permutations of the same small subset ofthings over and over and over again. Unless they have a dedicated team of people constantly creating new puzzles for us, even the interesting and difficult puzzles will likely get boring, and trivially easy, very fast.
Drashk wrote:
Someone else mentioned the suggestion of the Phase 1 Crafting quest Mini-game. The above mentioned ideas could easily be adapoted to a 'Recalibration' mini-game such as we see in the Phase 1 Crafting Quest. Basically, we would once again have the choice of Complete the Item, Create a Manufactoring Schematic, but instead of Adding a Loot Component, we would see Recalibrate Item. Chosing 'Recalibrate Item' would open up 1 of X number of puzzles, where X would be the maximum number of mini-games that were created. The puzzles could range from Red, Blue and Green Wires, to the more complex slider puzzles we see in the Phase 1 Quest. The random factor of which puzzle you recieve would determine 'the payoff' if you suceed, or fail. The simple 'Rock, Sissor, Paper' style puzzles would result in the lowest Risk/Return factor while a puzzle such as the for the Solid State Array mini-game, from the Phase 1 Quest, would offer the highest Risk/Return and could even result in a lost item, if the puzzle is failed.
Comments?
Drashk wrote:
After Experimentation if completed, you would have the choice to Complete the Item, Create a Manufactoring Schematic, or Add Loot Component. Chosing the 'Add Loot Component' option would bring you to a new crafting screen that would list the current attributes of the crafted item and 1slot for a loot component. Once the Loot item is installed, and the 'Retune' button is pushed, we see the final result of Good, Bad, or a lost item.