Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: 'Having Trouble with your droid?' 'No, no problem...Why?'
I like this. It covers the outstanding issues, and gives us a bit of room for development...
I can appreciate the argument for allowing module stacking to continue, but that's about the only concern I'd have with this plan. It's important for being a Master to mean something, though I'd like to see some thought given to the viability of non-Masters in the marketplace - For all crafting professions, not just DE.
Otherwise, it's great! I only hope the Devs take notice... 
Drashk --- I am amazed and impressed with the detail and thoughtfulness of your post. Although there are a few points I do not agree with I will drop a line to Thunderheart so he knows of this thread. You obviously spent alot of time on your thoughts and they at least deserve official attention.
Good job!
There is definitely problems with things going in the wrong harness...
On the stacking thing.. This is a very tough call.. I BTW am still using my medical seeker droid witrh a level 1 med module in it, and no craft station... which I built myself.
Med modules are tricky... everyone wants a 110, nothing less (i'm a rare exception). Stacking gives you droids to sell... anything less than 110 will get you a medic who will shop around until they get a 110... te module system needs work.
I poropose a non-linear advancement to modules.
Instead of making med mod 1-6 scale in a linear fashion (as well as allthe other modules tat scale this way. just make te mdifferent.
Ways that different mods can affect a droid, besides base effectiveness of the mod itself (in my case healing). You could make all droid modules 110 9the only value players really want (or 90, 100, 110 may fly... 30... who'd buy it) te differnce between te modules would be te following (in no particular order)
+ add HAM (1 or all stats).. med module would be more structure on the chassis = more health.
+ small armor value (more equipment to hit before you hit something critical)
+ adds to other mods (med module as + to quality of food/chem craft station also installed (maybe vice versa as well).
+ stripped down version (say at level 3).. a lot less resouces to make, but no bonuses from this list at all.
+ Adv version, reverse of stripped down, lots of extra materal (and XP) for making and has several of the bonuses.
---
The difference is not the medical rating (which IMO is just filler for DE schematics).. but overall construction of the droid.
If all modules had variants wilth side effects (3-4 food/chem modules etc. etc.) then it would be more important to design an overall droid. Picking and choosing complimentary _Additional_ funtion to modules, instead of picking and chosing around basic functions.
All of this gives DE's 2 benefits.
Many more crafting choices (new components will create more DB problems though).
More detailed crafting, with more variety in finished droid (a good thing.)
The parts now are generic (craft stations, arms, motive units), or a progression of unwanted parts leading to a useful high level version. (med, storage, data).
Fundimental design problem... in and above the chassis/certification problem, and cluster sockets.
-T
Drashk, Congrats.
I love your post(s), and agree fully with just about everything you said. I hope TH sees this, and takes it into account when proposing further ideas to the other Devs.
I would be a happy DE if every one of these changes took place. And I'm not even master yet, so I'd even loose some sellable droids until I worked my skill up.
My only concern is the item storage versus data storage. With the caps at 10 and 150 respectively, it seems imbalanced. Item storage has many uses, whereas data storeage has schematics only. 150 schematics seems rediculous considering how few are needed at once. 10 items seems rediculous when you can buy a factory and store 100 items in it, or join a bank for the same number, or buy a house or three for countless more. If they're having database issues, they need to fix it. People want more item storage. I've heard of pure combat players buying and placing factories just to hold more items. I've heard of people refusing a probot, preferring 5 droids with 10-item storage instead. People will always find a way to store more items, and their database will need to deal with it, or they will need to impliment a different database system (multiple linked Oracle DB's perhaps?). Placing such a low cap on such a desired item makes the item less desireable.
/rant off
Sorry about that, I'm passionate about my droids
Very good post, and I'm glad Sintrosi saw this and is willing to put in a good word with TH.
I really enjoyed reading your plan.
It's nice to see so many people that are still passionate about this issue. 
My feedback:
- I thought at first that 35 might be a bit much per Load Lifter.. especially if everyone had 3. Then, I realized that not everyone WOULD have 3 -- they'd balance them with other droids, so I like the idea. It'd make moving your house much easier then the constant running back and forth, also.
- I think that weaponsmiths should be able to make weapons modules to add to droids... or, we'd make weapon harnesses to add to their weapons to add them to drodis. The weapons could only function at some fraction -- 1/3 of normal, or something. I like any extra inter-skill dependencies, but this is a nice-to-have, not a needed addition.
- I like the extra medic variability options. That definately makes things cooler than before. I'd even suggest having the Medical module take an optional component that could be made by a Doctor or Bioengineer that could do all the extra optional healing tasks.
- Master DE's having Adv Droidekas would be a cool benefit.
- I'm curious about how the certification systme would work along with pets. A DE/CH/Colonel could havea veritable army.
- What's the plan for DEs/Vehicle Designers?
But, first off.... fix the bugs! Colorization/Droids not moving/Use for Data Storage/Cluster Module/Personalities/Droid Names with numbers/Names on talking droids/Repair modules should come first...
First off, thanks to everyone that has taken the time to read this rather robust concept and thank you for your comments. I would like to think of this concept as a work in progess. So far, I have noted that not everyone would be happy with the removal of stacking or cluster modules, but before I can change this 'proposal'Iwould liketo read afew more points of view from each side.I plan on updatingthis concept, on a new thread, in a couple of days, after more debate. So, with that said...
Droid_Engineer_Rho - The difficulty with keeping stacking, even if cluster sockets are fixed, is that the incentive to becoming a Master would still not be there to those that only want to sell droids for medical purposes. When/If experimentation caps are removed, we would still see people holding back from gaining Master and yet still providing Surgical Droids with a full medical rating. It also takes away from ever needing to harvest/buy the rarest of resources that are needed to craft Level 5 & 6 modules. If the resource isn't available for Level 6 Item Storage, then neither should the effects of having a Level 6 Item Storage.
As to ClusterSockets, you have an extremely valid point, but something that I feel theneed to point out, even though its effectwould be very limited if the Cluster Socket fitting in Service Harness slotswas fixed, is that Cluster Modules would have an effect on the overall quality of the droid, when/if the HAM damage caps were removed. Not many droids would be effected, but if you used three different parts in the Cluster Socket that all had a 10 Mechanism rating and you used the best resources and best experimentation, your droid would gain the increased HAM beacuse of the Cluster Mod having a higher rating then the sum of the three parts used. IFthis concept was to be implimented, in its entire from, the a new problem would arise in the Cluster Sockets; Modules that should be droid specific could theoretically be placed in adroid with the use of a Cluster Socket.If those issues, or ones similar, could be adressed then I would be for keeping the Cluster Socket Modules (or what ever their 'offical' name is)
Sintrosi - I am really interested in hearing what it is that you disagree with and I hope that you post your thoughts. I hold you in high regard for your dedication to this profession.
Traigus- Yikes, two blue names.
I agree that by removing stacking, Novice DEs will end up having a harder time trying to sell Medical Droids,howeverthe same can be said for all non-Master Crafting professions as well as Medical personel that are trying to sell stims and wound packs. Most people will shop around for only the best, but also gives a Novice DE more incentive to become a Master instead of hanging on tothose extra skill points.
I'm having a bit of difficultly graspingwhat it is that you are saying, in regards to the non-linear droid modules. Are you proposing that different module combonations have an effect on the overall HAM/combatdamage on a droid, or that each module have different effectiveness depending on sub components used? I appologize, but I just spent the last 5 hours around26Pre-K kids an I am now the one in need of a nap...lol
Ki-Odo- I really agree with you about the state of Item Storage Modules and I agree that the size needs to be increased, but I wouldn't want anything done to them at the expense of server stability. I'm only assuming that it is a DB issue that was the reason for this change, but it honestly wouldn't surprise me if it was a DEV..um....mistake that made them small. Anytime that I find something that is a bit off, I always think of the update notes about how Probots arenow 5 charges (Should have Probe Droids)
JediYak- First off, you are one of the main reasons that I learned so much about this profession in such a short time, or I should say that it was your handy work. Your guide was the first that I read when starting out, what now seems like so long ago, but was actually around three months ago.
I agree with you about the BLL and I'm the one that wrote it out, but I looked at it from a similar point of view and came up with close to the same conclusion. What is needed to construct a BLL (Binary Load Lifter - for those that don't know the jargon..:smileyhappy would help to limit the numbers of these walking behemoths. The proposed changes to many droids would actually make it a necessity to own a few different droids if you want to gain the full benefit of using droids.
I was thinking of a new Weaponsmith component that could be used in the production of better combat droids, but decided against the idea because; 1) adding 1 or even 2 components to the WS profession that are only needed for DEs would be like asking another class to have a Droid Storage Compartment. I don't know about anyone else out there, but I don't get that many requests for these puppies, since most Architects will find the first person that can offer them the best and stick with that person. With as many Weaponsmiths on my server, compared to the current number of DEs, I can think of about 20 Master WSs that will never receive any DE business for this component. 2) Asking for a change to the DE profession is hard enough. Could you imagine what it would be like to actually get combat droids implimented only to find that we actually can't build them because someone forgot to mention the new component to the WS DEV? 'No Blasters..No Blasters' 
(Sorry that was a cheap shot in hopes of get a few laughs. /bows down to the red name people.)
I agree with you on the posiblity of adding the need for a Doctor, Medic, or Boi-Engineer item to maybe Level 5 & 6 Medical modules, but there would probably a lot of upset over something like this since DEs already rely so heavily on other professions as it is. I think Armorsmiths are prehaps the only other class that can even come close in comparision, since they needquite a few things from Scouts, Tailors, and even Master Artisans.
The Master CH/Master DE/Colonel is actually the biggest problem that I can forsee and could turn out to be a nightmare gone wrong. A MCH/MDE/Colonel would be able to call, in therory, 3 Combat Pets, 2 Combat Droids, 1 Utility droid, and 3 Faction Pets.In my honest opinion, very few would go this route since it would cost them 198 Skill points to accompish this feat. However, if the MCH/MDE wanted to be able to call out the Advanced Droideka and an Advanced Battle Droid along with their 3 CH pets, the person would also have to pick up Novice (Elite combat profession here) which would cost and additional 35 skill points, which would leave them with 17 skill points left. Enough to pick up Novice Medic with 1 skill level. As you can see, this could be a bit of a nightmare, unless; 1)the DEVs added something like capping the total level of allowable pets, meaning that pet A CL+ pet B CL+ Pet C CL(must be less than)< X CL. This cap could be set at the max that aMCH can call, without Droids or Perks which I believe would be a total of CL 210 (3 pets at MCH @ CL70 each).So, let us say that a MCH/MDE wants to call out an Adv Droideka that is CL25 (example CL), they would only be able to have a total of CL185. 2) the maximum number of pets/droids/faction perks is limited to 4.I like this senario much better, since it means that someone would be wasting 92 skill points in order to gain the abilty to call out 1 combat droid that is slightly better thanthe droid that they could have hadfor 53 skill points(to gain 2 tier 2 trees in anelite combat profession)andbemore effective in combat. It would all be about checks and balances, which it would seem that the DEVs are paying a little more attention to now.
And I agree that many of theissues that our profession has now need to be fixed first, but for the most part this thread isn't about now, its about the future of our profession.
I understand your frustrations as a Master DE. And let me say again that I liked most of your post. I just disagree withsome of your points in yoursolution. Let me clarify a few things that I have been trying to say, although not very successfully.
The problem is not stacking. The problem is:
#1: Not enough modules, not enough diversity. Since modules are profession enhancements (and data storage isn't percieved as beneficial), you never really need more than two types. At the most, three. There aren't enough module types to warrant a need for5 level 6 modules in a droid. Do we need to cut down the number of module slots an advanced R2 can have? No. We need more modules thatmore peoplecan use to fill it up with. Specifically, we need modules that are more generalized and less profession-specific. And no, I don't want to replace anyone's profession. I just would like to see droids that did things for everyone besides combat droids (tanks). Right now, ifplayersaren't a medic ora crafter, how are droids beneficial to them? Many, many good ideas have already been presented for more modules.
#2: Module stacking is linear. Let me try to explain what I mean. Stacking RAM is linear. Two 512 sticks of RAM are equal to one 1GB stick, but you take more room for the same amount of RAM (slots are limited). But if you only need (lets call this the cap) 1GB, and you have 4 slots, it is cheaper to buy two 512 sticks and forget about it. This is the design that we are currently dealing with. The low cap with plenty of module slots makes itunneccessary to conserve space. My argument before was to raise the cap. So instead of a 1GBcap for 4 slots, you have a 4 GB cap for 4 slots, thus making it better to put the full 1GB in each slot. That would be easy enough to implement, but you argue that it is game breaking. So here is an alternative:
- Non-linear stacking: My computer has two processors. There are benefits to using two processors over using a single, but they do not stack in a linear fashion. In other words, my two processors running at 2600are not as fast as a single processor that would run at 5200.But if Iam running software that takes advantage of two processors, my computer is much, much better than a 2600.If two level 6 medical modules did something that a single module could not (such as mind cost reduction), but didn't just stack in a linear fashion, then bingo! You now have useful module stacking.
To summarize, stacking is only a problem when you have one viable item to make and a whole lot of slots to fill up using a linear system with a low cap. My argument is to have a better, wider variety of modules that will make mastering DE more organically worth it. To impose any further limitations on our droids and on our novices will not solve one problem except for a master's comparison to a non-master. We can do that in other, better ways.
Just one more thing to think about: we cannot and should not be compared to weaponsmiths or armorsmiths, as much as you might like to be. They both produce something that the majority of the player base not only wants, but needs. We are more like chefs. We produce items that people with money might want, as long asthe productsaren't broken. Besides the BH droids, you said it yourself: we do not produce a single item that any player needs. But chefs are actually better, in that every single player could benefit from food. Not every single player can benefit from a droid. Taking away stacking isn't going to fix that problem. And that is the problem I would like to see fixed more than anything else.
SinjenRandall, thanks for keeping this going. This is exactly what I have been looking for. I just wish more people would do this.
1) I completely agree with you on this point, which is why I added a few module concepts in this 'proposal' (for a lack of a better word). As to why I was suggesting a reduction in the number of modules that an Advanced R2 Unit would get was to open up the gap between the R2 and the R3. R3 sales would actually increase since they would be able to have 1 or 2 more module than the Adv R2. I didn't post more modules from otherthreadsbecause I was hoping thata fewwould be offered on this thread, instead of me searching for the ones that I thought had the 'most value'.
2) THANK YOU. The computer analogy was freakin perfect. What needs to be done now is to think up of a few'perks' that can be gained using this concept,however (about to use that subjective word again.) balance is a major issue, if this thread is to evolve into an on going process, like I hope that it can become.
I'll post more later, but right now I have an RP plot to join on my server
Sorry I was unclear, was on my way outa work, but wanted to get into this.
Yeah the linear scaling of soem DE components is nto liek the scalign in other professions.
While smugger spices do get mroe powerful, they do not do so in a linear manner, and a novice spice is still good in the same situations it always was. A master spice is more powerful, but used in different situations.
WHile guns generally get more powerful, the middle of the trees mix up the Armor Piercing, damage types, speed ranges, HAM costs etc.. so peopel often carry 3-4 different guns for different situations.
DEs have soem streight linear items.
if ther is going to be stacking.. make stacking do more than just add 30's to healing (for example.)
make all med modules do 30 healing (or whatever), and then add separate secondary effects. so both the master and the novice can both stack med modules to make a med droid (chasis permitting)... but the master has MORE choices than the novice.
if you apply this to all modules.. a Low level DE can make functional and useful droids... but masters can make much better droids for 1 or 2 specific uses (say large HAM droids, or slower power usage) , or a medium amount better in everything. Since modules would affect other aspects of the droid, the strength of the Master becomes the ability to custom design droids for people, adding or changing the componets of similar base type, to maximize or spread out the secondary stats on the module.
For example (points = stackable medical value)all numbers ar fictional.. may be too low to be useful.. for exampel purposes only.
med module 1 w/ servo assist (30 points) +20 Red HAMs
med module 2 w/ micronized servos(30 points) + 20 Green HAMs
med module 3 /w logic backup (30 points ) +20 Blue HAMs
med module 4 / generic brand (30 points) schematic uses 1/2 the amount of materials of any other med module
med module 5 Combat model(30 points) adds 10 points of armor (100 points = armor level change from none to light or light to medium...all parts add up including armor slots)
med module 6 Executive model (35points) +10 all HAMs 5 points of armor schematic requires 1.5 x the materials used for normal mods.
Food/ Chem A + 30 red HAMs
Food/ Chem B + 10 armor
Food/ Chem C + 15 red HAMs + 5 armor. (needs more materials to make schematic)
Droid arm 1 +10 armor
Droid arm 2 + 30 Green HAMs
Droid arm 3 +25 Green HAMs +5 armor (needs more materials to make)
etc etc. notice that all items don't have allabilities.
----
These could be stacked. and te master can now use al lthses choices to make a droid w/ several med modules more focused onits other role (say light combat, or to keep it alive[armor]).
Do this for all parts, and the master DE becomes 3 things
1.) master of all chasis choices.
2.) master of specific, user based design... as opposed to a mass producer of generic droids, masters do special orders (master crafters get beaten by demand)... When stuff gets fixed up so will DEs.. so making the lower DEs be able to make useful and functional droids puts the mass markets on them, whiel the masters get to do the custom jobs with the most component choices to optimize the droid for what the customer wants (within game balance restrictions).
3.) masters of the droid making process.. After working through all of the different parts as they level, MDEs will get a great feel for "specific models" they will want to make, this combined with the + crafting skills. then the MDE can specialize in certain areas, making MDE's less "cookie cutter" by playstyle if not by skillbox.
Novice/low levels get:
1.) marketable droids (with linear mods and possible removal of stacking NDEs get shafted) even with stacking, much like other artisan based professions, masters make EVERYTHING better then low levels.. the idea is to give Masters something to focus on other than depriving low levels of a market. makign the low level modules useful helps them a lot.
2.) functional module types with useful secondary stats (no giving novices a "useless part")
3.) possible market for parts in higher level DE's (while a master DE can make lower level parts better... with a wide variety of parts [and slow factory times], it may not be time efficient to do so. Since the base function of the part (med module, craft station, storage etc.) would be the same across all level parts they are partially interchangeable, but a well supplied master (who would want to have all options to specialty craft fopr cutomers (and big credits) woudl craft/ factory the upper level varients, and more than likely buy the lower level ones, rather than spend the time crafting them himself / herself .
-T
Traigus, thank you for posting again. I can see where you are going with this and between your ideas and those that SinjenRandallinspired, I am going to re-write the original thread and post it again with something that I hope can make a become a compromise to the stacking issue.
After I compose the thread and post it I will cut and paste a link here.
To finish the reply to SinjenRandall; I used the example of Weaponsmiths and Armorsmiths in hopes of showing the direct relationship between the sales of a Novice DE and a Master DE. I'll set up the example as follows; Two toons start out acharacter on the same day, are online the same amount of time, help out the same amount of people, and both have businesses.Both toons progress in the same fashion and become weaponsmiths that have dedicated themselves to creating the best weapons that they can and both price their weapons at the same damage/speed/cost to credtis ratio. They use the exact same materials to craft their weapons and both only use the best components in their weapons that they create. The only difference between the two Weapsmiths is that one of them became a Master and the other stayed at 4/4/4/4.After one month of business, which of these two Weaponsmiths would have had more business, the 4/4/4/4 Weaponsmith or the Master Weaponsmith? I would have to put my money on the Master since he can produce a slighty better product due to the extra experimentation points.
With DEs, this in not the case due to the ability to stack modules. That was the point that I was trying to get across by using the Armorsmith/Weaponsmith comparision.
Ok, so I was trying to work on a non-linear idea that could be simplified....Unfortuantely there just are too many combos that can be used. So instead I amsubmitting changesto the current rules of stacking in hopes that it can be a little more feasible.
I am also changing the concept for the Advanced Droideka, in hopes that it will appease the non-DE only combat droid people.
Here is the new link to this post
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=droid_engineer&message.id=37192