Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Combat Droids: A Focus Thread
I don't know if there would be a flock of "1337 03" coming to the group is combat droids are implimented correctly. That is, since we are a crafting profession, lots of times we require specific resources. It's a pretty major change for a combat type person to sit down and start hunting resources. In that respect, people that want a DE only combat droid would really have to invest a large amount of time into the profession.
For a long time, Atlantium Ore (for T21 rifles) was not on Lowca, and T21 did not exist. If, for example, some specific type of resource was required for the use of combat droids then a resource limitation could also cut down on the number of combat droids produced and again this would help prevent dabblers or the "1337 03"from getting the best droids.
Kurt_Mendel wrote:
DE Crafter/User Arguments (DE Only Combat Droids)
1. With so many skill points already spent on being a DE (Master DE, Master Artisan), we shouldn't have to spend more skill points on a droid-related profession to actually use our own product.
I have to agree with this point. DE is such a skill intensive profession, it doesn't leave you much. Try to get just a few selling, healing, or combat skills and you're tapped.
2. CH can get their combat pets (tame) and use them as well, why can't DEs?
I have to STRONGLY agree with this point - CH are the ONLY profession that can create AND use their own products. If Creature Tamer were a seperate profession than Creature Handler, the Tamers would be on par with the BE - creating creatures. And the Handlers would be the users. Talk about specialization.
DE Crafter Only (pro-Droid 'Handler') Arguments
1. Combat droids will be less powerful if they are DE only than if they were managed by a separate profession.
Says who??? I don't see the reasoning for this statement. We can conjecture all we want, but how can we say for certain unless the devs would actually tell us something? Unless we've been told this, I find it hard to use as an argument.
2. DE only combat droids would make us "Uber", "Flavor of the Month" and subject us to significant nerfing.
Uber? How could DE be uber if combat droids are comparable to combat creatures?
3. CH must now go to a crafter (BE) to get the best possible pets, whereas before these pets were tameable in the wild (with vehicle patch/creature balance).
CH might get 'better'creatures from BE (if this is true) but they can still create regular creatures on their own. How does this relate to droids?
4. DEs wishing to be combatants using droids can drop other combat/crafting skills and assign the points to the "DH" profession (which really needs a better name).
So which skills should I drop? MA, so I can't make MM's or GP's, MDE so I can't make droids,Merchant 3/0/0/4 so I can't sell my droids, Novice Medic so I can't heal myself, orMarksman 0/4/0/0 my only combat skills?I hate the name too.
5. Giving DE only combat droids invites "03s" - 3133+ DEs - into the profession.
Sorry, miss the reference. You mean DE 3133 skills? Who said the skills required to use combat droids would be 3133??? I missed that. I would rather players did NOT have to climb that high in the DE tree just to use combat droids (if true again). Just one DE branch for combat droid usage would not cause this problem.
6. DE Only combat droids obviously cannot be sold, so they do not address the prime complaint of many DEs - lack of cash flow.
Obviously? Says who??? Again, if just one DE branch were required to use combat droids, players could use them without building them.
I'm not necessarily pro-DE Only, I just want some way for players (me included) to be able to use SOME of the combat droids we build without investing a ton of skill points in another profession.
And I HATE the idea of certs in other professions - too much of a balancing act. I think this would only cause more problems.
I just see adding a few skills to DE, perhaps to onlyone branch of DE, to be a better solution than anyone else has come up with. Including a seperate profession which I would bet has a much less likely chance of happening than either a few DE skills, or certs in other profession.
As long as CH are a combined (OK, let's just say it) 'crafting' and 'user' hybrid profession, they will ALWAYS be the prefered profession compared to DE. And I don't care.
I don't really care whether DE are a hybrid profession. And I'mnot the type of person that thinks we deserve somesort of uber combat perk (MDE).Although I would like to be able to use a few of them myself having built the darn things.
I'm not a CH hater/basher either. Live and let live.
I just want a droid alternative to creatures whether we have usage skills placed in DE, or a seperate droid usage profession. It has to work for the players.
Our main competition for combat droids, no matter what anyone says,will be CH creatures.
Unless our products are comparable to their products, and our usage skill costs are comparable to their usage skill costs WE WILL HAVE NO MARKET for combat droids.
It's as plain and simple as that.....
You're right, it's obvious which side of the fence you're sitting on.
And it's hard to host a 'Focus Thread' or reach a fair 'consensus' while starting off with such a biased statement of the facts.
Perhaps a little more research into the subject could provide a few more facts (or arguments) before trying to start a discussion on the topic.
As far as DH being the only alternative to the DE Only option, certs in other professions was the main alternative discussed in most other threads.
DH was an idea that was proposed, and it is another alternative, but not the only one.
Now you're going to tell me "Then why don't you provide me with some more facts" to which I'll respond "Many responders will only read the first few posts in the thread and then agree or disagree with your original statement".
Thought I'd save us a little time there 
The pros and cons of both sides have been debated ad-nauseum in numerous threads. A little digging will provide a wealth of information to start a better, more unbiased discussion.
These aren't even close to the majority of arguments for either side, nor are they 'the best'.
If all you could come up with was 2 argument for DE Only and 3 valid arguments for DH, perhaps we could start anotherthread when we're a little more prepared.
PLEASE, this isn't a personal attack. I don't even know you (yet).
But people seem to like to start 'Focus Threads' - they sound so official - and then inaccurately state the facts. Or not state the facts at all.
It invalidates the entire purpose of the thread from the very beginning - to state the facts and poll people's opinion on the subject.
I'd just like people to show a little more responsibility if they think they're going to start some sort of diffinitive discussion on any topic.
Kurt_Mendel wrote:
BlueMongoth - as I said before, game mechanics have to drive RP, rather than having RP drive game mechanics as you suggest. Things often have to work differently in a game based on a work of fiction than the fiction would dictate they should, because what the fiction dictates is not always best for gameplay. It's a different medium, and what happens is much like what happens when a book is turned into a movie or TV show, or a movie is turned around into a book. Things get changed around or lost in the translation because one medium has different requirements and presentations than another.
SWG is relatively unique as an MMO in that it's based on an existing body of fiction that sets out a lot of concrete rules for the universe. Other MMOs have the advantage of writing their own fiction as they go along, thus allowing them to an extent to posess RP driven mechanics. The problem is that written and film works of fiction have no balance requirements. In fact, characters are set up as protagonists and antagonists, we root for the protagonist and enjoy the experience all the same - terribly unbalanced. Video games, on the other hand, have to be balanced because no one likes to lose or be significantly less powerful than someone else (certainly not all or most of the time). In this regard, SWG has to occasionally break the "rules" for gameplay purposes.
The point is that while the RP status of a droid as AI dictates anyone should be able to use it, the mechanics of that don't work in a video game.
Too true.
Any argument that actually tries to bring 'reality' into the equation of game design is bound to fail.
The game is based on reality. It is a (loose)representation of reality. It is not, in actuality, a true reality, but a perceived reality as translated through game controls, user interface, mechanics (physics, game systems, what have you), game theory, social engineering and a list as long as my arm.
Face it - reality blows. We don't reallywant reality in our games. Why are we playing this game? To have fun. Reality isn't always fun. Combat especially, is not fun in reality. A 12 yr old with a .32 could get lucky and take me down with one shot to the head. That's reality. But it wouldn't make a very fun game. Death is permanent. Not in the game.
Concrete rules are fine for reality, even a ficticious reality. They often don't translate well to games.
Just enough reality, but not too much.
While it's true that droids are supposed to be autonomous AI, we just aren't there yet programming wise. So we can't use it as the basis for any argument. They're just dumb pets with a handful of programmed commands.
If you tell your droid to follow or attack, you want it to do what you told it to do. Not decide it's going to do something else. Well, actually that does happen. But it's an unfortunate side effect of an imperfect game system. You could roleplay the heck out of that - the first few dozen times.It isn't as much fun when you're by yourself and after it happens a few hundred times. Then it's just an annoying aggravation.
The funniest story I ever heard was someone deciding to give their BLLthe command to attack a Rill on top of a hill (the command cannot be programmed, yet it shows up on the information for BLL's). The first time the command was issued, the BLL took a step sideways and fidgeted around. The second time the command was issued, the BLL turned in the opposite direction and ran downthe hill100m away. The third time the command was given, the BLL turned, started running, and didn't stop. The person recalled it after it got a few 1000m away.
How about this approach:
Battle Droids usable by people with Ranged Support IV and / or MDE - but only MDEs can call more than one at a time?
This way, there would be a market for the Droids - Most Master Marksmen would want one, but MDEs would have a clear advantage when protecting their cities, fighting with their guilds, surveying for rare resources, etc..
It is entirely logical that someone who built the brain and programmed a Droid would have a better chance of managing it than someone who had no droid experience at all.
I'd like to make a couple of observations too - as an outsider - in defence of DEs
1. Comparisons between Pets and Droids are moot - Droid Engineers would obviously seek to develop droids that are more powerful than pets, and Droids would be more resistant to changes in weather, temperature, lack of water, biological agents, etc... Droids should obviously be more powerful if they have the right components and programming.
2. Permadeath for Droids is totally illogical - surely a MDE would have more chance of resurrecting a Droid taken out by energy-blasts, than a MCH would have in resurrecting a creature killed by a Dark Jedi using a lightsabre? Intodrucing permadeath for Battle Droids would be very unfair, especially considering the effort that would go into making them!
That's my two credits worth!
I'm growing weary of debating this. I can't believe that people serioesly want DEs to be Master Artisans, Master DEs and Master Droid Handlers just so they can make and use thier droids. Isn't this a bit of over-kill when we're talking about droids that are voice-activated?
Hell, Droid Handler doesn't have any combat implications by the name of it, I suppose if we were MA/MDE/MDH's we would STILL need to get combat skills right? Not many skill points left over for that or Merchant of Medic skills. This is an off-the deep end proposal without many benefits.
CHs don't need to do crap to get thier pets.They don't need to master any professions. They don't need to harvest any minerals or chemicals. They don't even need BEs! They just use the radial on a BABY creature and select "tame"; then they sell them at gouge prices.Not a single skill in the CH skill tree or prerequesite skill tree is a combat skill and yet they dish out the most combined damage and HAM of any other profession.
Ask yourself how a Master Artisan/Master DE/Master Droid Handler would compare to a Master CH/Commando? MA/MDE/MDH cannot be a combat class. They have zero skills left over for weapon or medic skills.
Kurt_Mendel wrote:
As TH stated in his responses to the community, there is obviously a huge divide within our community between those who would like to have DEs craft and operate combat droids (DE only) and those who believe that combat droids should be separated out into the so-called Droid Handler class ("crafter only" DEs).
You are conflating two issues, Kurt. The whole premise of this thread is flawed in that sense.
The MAJORITY of DEs believe that they should be able to use all the droids they make except for profession-specific droids like BH or the abilities medical droids (unless they have those skills).
The real division is on whether DEs should get DE-only droids -- and even then the "pure crafter" camp is in the minority. Regardless, though, reasonable minds are differing, and we have a divide on DE-ONLY DROIDS.
Also, most people believe that there should be some sort of game-balancing system like certifications.
I prefer a system of droid certifications where by 1) MDEs get to use all the droids they make (perhaps some lesser droids for non-MDE DEs within reason), 2) droid certifications are in place for other professions (Somethinglike master marksman and you get a good droid, master pistoleer and you get a great droid). Everybody, meanwhile, gets to use the CL10-equivelent Probots.
This way DEs get to use the droids they make and others get access to great droids when they are powerful enough to do so.
> So which skills should I drop? MA, so I can't make MM's or GP's, MDE so I can't make droids, Merchant 3/0/0/4 so I can't sell my droids, Novice Medic so I can't heal myself, or Marksman 0/4/0/0 my only combat skills? I hate the name too.
The reason for having skill points is to make your game choices meaningful. If you want to go at it alone, it is simply going to be harder for you, as it should be. The skill points are there to encourage you to find reliable professionals in the game to partner with. In real life, you don't have infinite skill points. In real life, you can't go pick up master doctor in a matter of a few days, even though I think we would all want to -- look how painful it is to pay for private health insurance.
The key is to work intelligently within the skill point system.
With diligence, you may be able to find a master merchant with a nice setup who would let you put a vendor in their house. Now, whenever people drop by his/her place, there's your vendor right there. You can give up quite a few merchant skills this way, by letting someone else be the expert at sales. I have no merchant skills, and business relationships with three excellent merchants, and it has paid off FAR better than trying to go at it alone.
Every DE I know has master artisan but me. I used to have it. But I've built up a decent amount of cash, and with a close friend who is master artisan, I just buy 1000 at a time of EGPs. The more you buy, the cheaper they are. The fact is that resources are dirt cheap -- .2 credits per unit. Buying a schematic is pretty cheap too. It's a custom deal, but even easier if I've got the resources to make the stuff, which I usually do. I dropped everything but Eng IV and some surveying in Artisan. If I harvest resources for cheap and get my MA friend to make/sell me a schematic, I'm so set, and really, no worse off. I had to plan ahead before, I still have to plan ahead now.
I only have Pistol 3 for marksman, but with a weaponsmith friend (ghola), I can easily and cheaply have a max-180 damage scout blaster. (As can you, he charges 4,000 on flurry) And my backup pistol is one of his nice Republic Blasters. Slower, but puts bigger holes in the squills. If you are lucky enough to have this cert, it is a good weapon.
Finally, I recently took up Combat Medic. I will be mastering two trees. This is my combat ability. If I wanted to be more of a fighting DE, I have more than enough skill points to drop Master Medic and Combat Medic, and master "Droid Handler". If such a profession were to come out, I'd seriously consider it!
With the legwork done finding the right people to partner with, I have a plethora of skill points. (A plethora, I say!) A guild wasn't even needed. Many think that the only path to success in the game is to be backed up by a guild, but I made the choice to build my own guild-independent network.
I agree that it sucks that so much of DE depends on MA, but I am here to tell you that it doesn't have to be that way! The game was pretty challenging for a while, it was real work, but hard work pays good rewards. I preach the gospel of droid wholesaling to every novice DE I meet on Flurry.
If I can do it, anyone can.
End Chapter 1 "Self Help for DEs"
I don't believe in making combat droids DE-only, because I find the arguments for it to be weak. In contrast, the skill point system is really nicely done -- it has created phenomenal player diversity, and leveraging it with a droid handler profession would be fabulous. You want droid combat? Take DH! You want droid crafting? Take DE! You want it all? Go ahead, but don't get caught in a dark alley with an angry bantha and expect to be able to buff yourself, take out the bantha with a couple headshots and a dose of poison, and heal any wounds you might have incurred simply by pulling out your stims and your kazoo. No one can be an expert at everything, but with judicious use of skillpoints, you can find an arrangement that is just shy of satisfactory.
In complete satisfaction lies boredom. In boredom lies "finding another game". There are other sources of boredom too, but skill points stave it off for a quite a while. At the personal cost to me of a really cool ability (exclusive use of uber combat droids), I support the skill point "every choice is painful" approach, simply because it is better for the game.
I await stronger arguments for combat-expert-DEs open-mindedly. I love a good argument, and this thread has been **edit** good.
Jenden wrote:
I don't see a droid user skill as being the solution, I thinkit would be better to work it into current professions/skill trees. Possibly cert one to anyone with ranged support 4, another one for squad leaders, another one for BH's, that kind of thing. This would be giving them to people who would have the skills to effectively use them in combat (or for another RP type excuse these people would be allowed by Imperial law to use them).
/Agree, but I DEs should not have to do this to control their own droids.
Jenden wrote:
I think a possible solution to still let the devs work on "forced grouping" (which is an excellent concept in my opinion) is to let us make droids with unique uses in combat. Something that wouldn't come close to taking the place of another player but still provide a useful service in combat. A couple ideas here (and I'm sure there are plenty more I'm not seeing) are an artilliary droid. This would be innacurate, not that great of damage (and probably not well armored) but it could hit a target behind a structure (or possibly even a cliff). This can be used to flush you're target out into a position that you and your group can take them on more easily. Another idea is a decoy droid, which wouldn't actually do any damage and wouldn't have much armor, but it would be able to draw you're target in the direction you want (note the hostile would ignore this if you start firing on them to prevent serious exploits). Yet another idea (though this one is a little less likely) is a combat droid that is fairly worthless on its own, but if you are in a group with multiple people with these droids (and each one can have 1 out) they become a serious force to be reckoned with. Just a few idea, feel free to add to them or comment on any of them.
Again, your ideas *are* good ones. But ultimately, limited by technology in this case as well as Human Behaivior.
Your artillery droid is a fine idea, but suffers from SWGs lack of AI and Design support. In nearly every case, there's one direct way into a fortified position. As soon as *any* Player connected damage is done, whether it's the Player themselves or a Diseased Nuna the Player sent in, the AI will "Awaken" and pour out, without shelling the facility. Another Human OTOH, will just fall back out of range and continue to wait.
A Decoy droid is technically already programmed in, Adv Probot is essentially a decoy droid. God knows he's not actually going to hurt anything, and his HAM really isn't sufficient once you start hitting 20+ missions. All he'd need is an Overhead Waypoint system similiar to how Harvesters are placed. IMO, this would be the simplest to code and probably the most viable. In fact, I think this could likely be done inside a month.
A Linked Droid would be a programmer's worst nightmare, and I'm certain IT would second that. I *do* believe that it's a *really* cool idea, but I don't think the tech is there to support it.
For Linked Droids to go in, it would require the Droids to check for other Droidsevery time a Linked Droid joined & left a group. Now that initially doesn't sound so bad, BUT...Once joined, everytime aLinked Droid bites it, it has to update the group, which in turn must update the other Linked Droids.When you multiply that by a couple thousand Players, it generates *alot* of overhead. Likely, it'd be unnoticable until you either hit heavily populated hunting areas and/or entered large scale PvP. At that point, it'd become Landblock crashing Overhead as the system tries to maintain the status of every Player,Creature, Weapon/Armor status, and adds Linked Droid Overhead. That's the point where it would show weakness because I don't believe the technology is there yet for theServers to be able to handle that kind of data bandwidth. I mean, if just a dozen Players participating in PvP can now potentially tank a Landblock, what's going to happen with the additional Overhead?
I'm going to respectfully disagree with you on the topic of Forced Grouping being good, but the topic isn't Forced Grouping so that'll be a conversation for another day I'll only say that as it pertains directly to DE, it's bad IMO, because it places *huge* restrictions on the Droids we can sell as they won't allow them sufficient power to represent another Player. IMO, it leaves us with the *extremely* limited market of being a facilitator for other Crafting type classes and Skills. Which, as Medical droids have shown us, is a finite market which leaves DE as being a proffession with an extremely limited lifespan.